Two Recent Fires Highlight Volunteer Role

[gamewell45 258]

It's a no no when anyone, who is supposed to be operating at a fire scene, is taking pictures instead. Paid or volunteer, I don't think anyone is stopping during an operation to take group shots. If so shame on them. You obviously have an axe to grind with the FDNY but there's a legion of buffs who follow them around taking pictures, is that so wrong? No one is "grandstanding", and guys take pictures together after a job? There's nothing wrong with that on either side of the fence. You're ignorant if you think that guys are just out for 3/4, it's not an FDNY problem, there are just as many skells in every job, FD, PD, EMS, nameless other civil service jobs, and even the private sector who are just out to get theirs, to bilk the system and sit on their a-- collecting checks. I'm sure as a NYCMEDIC you see plenty of people abusing every system out there. Quit whining like you know what's going on if you want to ignore that larger truth about people and society as a whole, there are dregs everywhere.

As far as who calls themselves a fireman, it's all about training. I wouldn't go as far as to say most volunteers are capable, a good amount definitely, career guys with more training, sure there are still some useless ones but not quite as many. Their are plenty of useless EMTS and Medics out there too, and police officers on the rubber gun squad, we all know at least one or two. Being paid isn't the difference, training and ability is the difference. If someone said they just wanted to volunteer and help, had no training and about all they knew how to do was put on a bandaid, would you let them run around and call themselves paramedics, stick needles in people's arms, intubate, and give drugs. Oh and would you respect them more because it was free? Do you respect volunteer medics more than yourself? Or guys who just do it for less even? I know I know, there are licensing and education requirements for paramedics, but then following that logic, shouldn't the same kind of standards exist for firemen too? Go ahead though and think it's the fact that someone who does something for free deserves respect rather than someone who actually cares about being good at their profession and knows what they are doing, be it career or volunteer.

One more aside, it seems to be very common that the people who are the most inept and incapable, are the ones who don't realize this fact at all.

One thing you failed to mention in your post (unless I missed it) is that you can be the most highly trained, competent firefighter in the business, yet if you cannot work with others, your completely useless to the fire service.

[AFS1970 504]

My original reply was about the posts that came after the pubic remark.

This could be a fire where nothing much went wrong. Or it could be a fire where nothing at all went right. The outcome is that firefighters showed up to a well involved fire where residents had self-evacuated, could not make an interior attack, and performed surround-and-drown operations while they watched the building burn down. We don't know if they had 5 members show up or 50 members show up. We don't know if it took them 5 minutes or 25 minutes to arrive on scene. That was my whole problem with this article.

Don't mistake me for a career firefighter who love to bash volunteers. I am not a career fire fighter and have never been one. I spent 10 years in the volunteer fire service as a Firefighter, Lieutenant, and Captain and quit because I believe that the volunteer fire service is a façade and a waste of taxpayer dollars where members are more concerned with social functions than they are with training and firematics.

That is the point, we don't know. Based on the quality of the news reporting we will probably never know. However to assume that the building burned down because of something the volunteers did or did not sue is every bit as ad as praising them for loosing a building. As for watching the building burn down, the only way to stop that would be to keep your eyes closed at all exterior operations. Are there times when some IC's make a fire exterior that should be handled interior, absolutely, but we have no way of knowing from ths one article if that was the case.

What happens to members in these departments that try to concern themselves mostly with training and operations and don't attend parades?

There is nothing wrong with parades or social functions, as long as they are secondary to fire operations. IF your fire department has more classes of membership that are not responders than they do for actual active firefighters something may be wrong. However this is the way departments were organized way back when. I had to research my old department's charter once for a class, I found a short typed document from the state that said the department was a fire department located in the town and then went on to list the activities it could participate in, like raffles, fundraisers, carnivals, games of chance, ect. No where did it actually authorize us to fight fires. Now I like to think that is because it was taken for granted that that is what a fire department does, but it was still kind of odd to see the way it was written down.

I was at a conference a few years ago in the mid west and I was talking to some fire chiefs and one was saying to the group "did you know there are some places that still have elections to decide who's chief?" I had to laugh because are there any volunteer department's in New York that don't do it that way?

I have had some similar conversations right in my own state. I have no problem with elections as long as there are more qualifications than a pulse to hold office. I was just talking the other day with a friend who is an EMS chief in NJ. She is trying to loosen up some restrictions on who can serve as Chief because of an odd conflict in between the number of officers and the requirements to have held lower ofices. Basically unless everyone moves up regardless of qualifications, nobody will ever be able to replace her as Chief. I have seen departments that put in lots of training requirements and then end up with no one who can meet them. So one has to strike a sensible balance.

Edited July 19, 2014 by AFS1970

[ex-commish 490]

What happens to members in these departments that try to concern themselves mostly with training and operations and don't attend parades?

I believe there could be a balance as long as training and operations are the priority

[16fire5 693]

I have had some similar conversations right in my own state. I have no problem with elections as long as there are more qualifications than a pulse to hold office. I was just talking the other day with a friend who is an EMS chief in NJ. She is trying to loosen up some restrictions on who can serve as Chief because of an odd conflict in between the number of officers and the requirements to have held lower ofices. Basically unless everyone moves up regardless of qualifications, nobody will ever be able to replace her as Chief. I have seen departments that put in lots of training requirements and then end up with no one who can meet them. So one has to strike a sensible balance.

I don't know of any police departments ore highway departments that elect their supervisors. In one department that I collaborated with on some work with they had qualifications (which were not over the top), a written test (which I think was basic), scenarios, and interview. They used neighboring chiefs to grade scenarios and interviews. Seemed to be a very fair process. But a big difference is they're not changing things up every year. It didn't hurt that the chief has been there for a long time and is a strong extremely qualified leader.

[RES24CUE 168]

What happens to members in these departments that try to concern themselves mostly with training and operations and don't attend parades?

They quit! Why?

1. Last time I checked this was a team sport! The success of an operation cannot and should not be determined by the actions of the few (or the individual). When a member constantly trains and studies, but is surrounded by novices who can't perform simple functions, he (or she) will be discouraged. It is hard to be proud of or confident in your organization or your team when you know exactly what needs to be done on the fireground and are prepared for every emergency, but everyone else doesn't. It is discouraging to consistently do your job exactly by the book and have every operation fail because no one else read it.

2. It is dangerous! To be a knowledgeable and aggressive firefighter is a good thing. However, when an individual is experience and talented but surrounded by novices, who can you count on to come to your aid when the s*** hits the fan. Instead, it hampers your ability because you have to be overcautious since no one else can keep up (or get scared) and no one can get you out should you get into trouble (it happens to the best of us!).

3. Frustration! It gets tiring to know exactly what needs to be done to resolve and incident but have other people consistently screw things up! You get tired of having ceilings pulled down on you; you get tired of waiting for water because your CPO can figure out how to pull the right levers; you get tired of having rooms flash when you are in them because your outside vent team doesn't know how to properly vent horizontally and introduces too much oxygen to the fire; you get tired of having no back-up man on the knob because the guy behind you couldn't find his gloves; you get tired of telling your crew to pull a 2 1/2 with a smooth bore and getting an 1 3/4 with a fog tip! After a while you just realize that they don't care and that you don't want to be a part of them anymore.

4. Ostracization! When you are part of the small minority that actually cares about training, firematics, and performace, but 46 of the other 50 members of the organization only care about parades and pancake dinners, then you become the a******! You are the guy who is always critiquing everyone; you are the guy who is always telling people how to improve; and you are the guy who takes things too seriously (after all "We are just volunteers!"). So even though all you want to do is teach others and improve the effectiveness of your department, you are always the a****** who is ruining the fork and knifers' good time and telling them that they are doing it wrong! So instead of moving up because you are the most well-trained, you are voted out and replaced with the head clown in the popularity contest that they call an election because everyone loves him!

Thats why they quit...

[fireemt371 5]

This could be a fire where nothing much went wrong. Or it could be a fire where nothing at all went right. The outcome is that firefighters showed up to a well involved fire where residents had self-evacuated, could not make an interior attack, and performed surround-and-drown operations while they watched the building burn down. We don't know if they had 5 members show up or 50 members show up. We don't know if it took them 5 minutes or 25 minutes to arrive on scene. That was my whole problem with this article. It seems like this article is praising a group of individuals for unfavorable outcomes and potentially shoddy performance. "Great job showing up and watching a house burn down."

This gives the volunteer fire service, the residents, and the public a false (poor) sense of what is expected and what is favorable. The volunteers now know that they get a pat on the back regardless of whether or not the building is saved. The residents gain a false sense of security since the newspaper has just told them how great their local department is (that just allowed one of their neighbors houses to burn down without mounting a coordinated interior attack). The public now thinks that the volunteer fire service does a great job (when we all know that most volunteer departments are seriously lacking in manpower, training, and professionalism these days). I would imagine that this fire was not much different than the Vista helmet cam fire where everyone bashed them on this very website for their poor performance (we saw the article that they Huffington Post wrote about how great they were). This article is complete bullshit. Write an article when rescuers make a save. Not when a bunch of losers watch a house burn down.

Don't mistake me for a career firefighter who love to bash volunteers. I am not a career fire fighter and have never been one. I spent 10 years in the volunteer fire service as a Firefighter, Lieutenant, and Captain and quit because I believe that the volunteer fire service is a façade and a waste of taxpayer dollars where members are more concerned with social functions than they are with training and firematics.

Those sound like the words of a man who didn't just say I want to leave on top. I believe you are using a little creative writing yourself. And another thing, do you actually know this "bunch of losers" or is this just your general assumption of the group. The fact that you seem to know so much about them really impresses me. Now please tell me how many houses and people you have saved, not to mention how many you are currently saving since relieving the taxpayers by no longer volunteering.

Now what this really sounds like is a former volley whacker who is butthurt because there were no newspapers that through the use of some creative writing made him look amazing.

Last part of this rant is had they made an interior attack on this fire and someone became injured would you be a critic to say that should have been outside. With all the wisdom that you brought to this discussion I can not see why Chief was not on your list of glorious positions held in just another volunteer fire co.

[Bottom of Da Hill 76]

can you guys stop the BS with volunteers VS paid grow up! it should not be on this site! its nice to be nice.i can go take pics to of paid depts at fires making mistakes also but i am above that its kid s***!we all have a job to do as long as no one gets hurt and every one is safe at the end of the day then thats a good day paid or volunteer! the fire service started out as volunteer service,paid or volunteer god bless us all.

[Bottom of Da Hill 76]

They quit! Why?

1. Last time I checked this was a team sport! The success of an operation cannot and should not be determined by the actions of the few (or the individual). When a member constantly trains and studies, but is surrounded by novices who can't perform simple functions, he (or she) will be discouraged. It is hard to be proud of or confident in your organization or your team when you know exactly what needs to be done on the fireground and are prepared for every emergency, but everyone else doesn't. It is discouraging to consistently do your job exactly by the book and have every operation fail because no one else read it.

2. It is dangerous! To be a knowledgeable and aggressive firefighter is a good thing. However, when an individual is experience and talented but surrounded by novices, who can you count on to come to your aid when the s*** hits the fan. Instead, it hampers your ability because you have to be overcautious since no one else can keep up (or get scared) and no one can get you out should you get into trouble (it happens to the best of us!).

3. Frustration! It gets tiring to know exactly what needs to be done to resolve and incident but have other people consistently screw things up! You get tired of having ceilings pulled down on you; you get tired of waiting for water because your CPO can figure out how to pull the right levers; you get tired of having rooms flash when you are in them because your outside vent team doesn't know how to properly vent horizontally and introduces too much oxygen to the fire; you get tired of having no back-up man on the knob because the guy behind you couldn't find his gloves; you get tired of telling your crew to pull a 2 1/2 with a smooth bore and getting an 1 3/4 with a fog tip! After a while you just realize that they don't care and that you don't want to be a part of them anymore.

4. Ostracization! When you are part of the small minority that actually cares about training, firematics, and performace, but 46 of the other 50 members of the organization only care about parades and pancake dinners, then you become the a******! You are the guy who is always critiquing everyone; you are the guy who is always telling people how to improve; and you are the guy who takes things too seriously (after all "We are just volunteers!"). So even though all you want to do is teach others and improve the effectiveness of your department, you are always the a****** who is ruining the fork and knifers' good time and telling them that they are doing it wrong! So instead of moving up because you are the most well-trained, you are voted out and replaced with the head clown in the popularity contest that they call an election because everyone loves him!

Thats why they quit...

its funny that guys that like this work at 60 control as trainers and like bashing the the volunteers they get paid to train?thats a big problem with 60 control and hurts the fire service.this needs to stop,

[M' Ave 1,466]

its funny that guys that like this work at 60 control as trainers and like bashing the the volunteers they get paid to train?thats a big problem with 60 control and hurts the fire service.this needs to stop,

60 Control is a dispatch agency. They don't train anyone.

[Remember585 815]

1. There is NOTHING wrong with any publicity that puts your department in a positive light. It can help gain members, gain support from the community and - for those that depend on it - possibly garner donations.

2. 60 Control is the Communications Division of the Westchester County Department of Emergency Services. We (60 Control) are not the instructors providing the training mentioned.

3. From what I have seen over time as a Training Officer / Chief Officer with the WCFTC is that you occasionally have a bad apple in the bunch, and once people bring this to light, they are cut loose. I feel that the current staff of instructors is professional and courteous based on my most recent drills / classes I have taken as a member of my FD.

4. Pubic... HAHAHA.

5. Am I the only one that often wishes "Res24cue" would just go away with his crying and whining?

[FFPCogs 863]

5. Am I the only one that often wishes "Res24cue" would just go away with his crying and whining?

I for one do NOT wish he "would just go away". Mr. Res24cue has just as much right as anyone else here to post his opinions, even if they may not be the most popular, and frankly I enjoy reading them, they offer a wonderful insight. Beyond that his views offers us a perfect picture of what I described earlier in this thread about the cancer of the "us against them" mentality, which if we let it is a disease which will slowly erode the true meaning of service. Better to have those views expressed out in public so they can be dealt with than to leave them lingering in the darkness behind closed doors where they are far more insidious and damaging.

[FD7807 59]

How well trainedin this thread are not only do you think these people are?

I am not a regular EMTBRAVO poster but felt that your posts In this thread are ignorant, immature and juvenile. I am not sure what career FD you came from nor do I care but i can guarantee that you had members who did your municipality proud and others who coasted thru their years doing the bare minimum and did nothing to further move the fire service forward. Try focusing on what is right with the fire service or better yet join your local volunteer FD and show them how its done

[Bottom of Da Hill 76]

60 Control is a dispatch agency. They don't train anyone.

thats were i go for training dana rd valhalla ny so i dont know what your talking about.call it what you want its known as 60 control in my dept but what do i know ?27 years in the fire service. dispatching and training its all under the same roof,

[bigrig77 95]

thats were i go for training dana rd valhalla ny so i dont know what your talking about.call it what you want its known as 60 control in my dept but what do i know ?27 years in the fire service. dispatching and training its all under the same roof,

27 years and you don't know the difference between 60 Control and the Westchester Fire Training Center. Interesting and telling

[Newburgher 241]

" Try focusing on what is right with the fire service or better yet join your local volunteer FD and show them how its done"

By reading his post, that's sounds like what he did. He tried to demonstrate and preach professionalism, only to run into the same wall every department has. People who only want to do the bare minimum training and belong for the t-shirts and parties.

Edited August 17, 2014 by Newburgher

[Newburgher 241]

thats were i go for training dana rd valhalla ny so i dont know what your talking about.call it what you want its known as 60 control in my dept but what do i know ?27 years in the fire service. dispatching and training its all under the same roof,

You must have a tough time at the mall.

[FD7807 59]

" Try focusing on what is right with the fire service or better yet join your local volunteer FD and show them how its done"

By reading his post, that's sounds like what he did. He tried to demonstrate and preach professionalism, only to run into the same wall every department has. People who only want to do the bare minimum training and belong for the t-shirts and parties.

I disagree. Insulting the individual who stated how hot the fire was helps no one. Maybe it was really hot who knows I was not there and neither was Res24cue. Not every Volunteer agency is a group of jolly vollies. Assuming that is like assuming that every career FD &PD agency is professional and we all know yhat is not true. Focus on the good and you shall find good. Focus on crap and you shall find crap.

[Newburgher 241]

You mean, focus on the good and find good. Ignore the crap, and pretend it's not there.

[Remember585 815]

I for one do NOT wish he "would just go away". Mr. Res24cue has just as much right as anyone else here to post his opinions, even if they may not be the most popular, and frankly I enjoy reading them, they offer a wonderful insight. Beyond that his views offers us a perfect picture of what I described earlier in this thread about the cancer of the "us against them" mentality, which if we let it is a disease which will slowly erode the true meaning of service. Better to have those views expressed out in public so they can be dealt with than to leave them lingering in the darkness behind closed doors where they are far more insidious and damaging.

I agree, his posts are intelligent. But the never-ending "Debbie Downer" stuff based upon his experience in his department is getting tired. Not every department is a group of morons as portrayed in many of his (and others') posts.

[FD7807 59]

You mean, focus on the good and find good. Ignore the crap, and pretend it's nois there.

if you knew me you would in mind thatnow that statement to be false. Making sweeping generalizations helps no one. Being narrow minded about all volunteers is your right so go right ahead but keep in mind that thereis always someone who has seen more and done more then you. Snicker at the Cold Spring guys and get your yucks in. That doesnt make you orofessional. It makes you pathetic

[FFPCogs 863]

You mean, focus on the good and find good. Ignore the crap, and pretend it's not there.

Is that not what the vast majority of people in any organization do? Career, volunteer it doesn't matter, it's the same on that front. Most people want to coast along, not ruffling feathers, so they turn a blind eye. Worse though is the constant din of whining and complaining without action. How many guys show up to work at their firehouse and b**** and moan all day long about this, that or the other thing but do absolutely nothing but flap their gums about it? Same in Vollywood, members come out of the woodwork to cry and whine at the monthly meeting but are nowhere to be found when it comes time to do the work of fixing their gripes. So it was, so it is and so it shall be.

Complaining, bitching, whining, finger-pointing, that's the easy part, which is why so many people are so good at it. Although the specifics may be different, all of us who strive to be better tomorrow than we are today face that same endless chorus from the choir of the loud, the ignorant and the blind within our departments..and we all have them, in fact at times we ourselves will play a part in the symphony too. Those who are true to themselves, to their departments and most importantly to those they serve will rise above that din and take the harder road And while they may complain the loudest they are also the ones who lead the charge in tackling the problems. Sometimes they make a difference, sometimes not but they do not give up, they do not run away and they do not denigrate the actions of others without first walking in their shoes.

I cannot speak for anyone else, but like most I too notice an abundance of generally negative comments about volunteers here. Now there are times when maybe these views have merit and times when maybe they don't but the point is everyone here has the right to express them. What is important is what we do with those views. As I see it, and again I'm speaking only for myself, I often use them as a tool. I will read something inflammatory or derogatory or negative and instead of getting angry or offended I will ask myself "is that me? Is that my department? If so, what can be done about it? This site and others like it and everything that's posted on them offer a wealth of information and knowledge, but it is up to us to take advantage of that opportunity...for even the most negative of comments or opinions can offer us a means to better ourselves.

Stay safe all and take the high road, the low one is too full of complainers, whiners and malcontents already.

Edited August 17, 2014 by FFPCogs

[Bottom of Da Hill 76]

27 years and you don't know the difference between 60 Control and the Westchester Fire Training Center. Interesting and telling

same location same building same thing.now thats interesting and telling isnt it?

[thebreeze 194]

same location same building same thing.now thats interesting and telling isnt it?

It's the same location, it's located in different wings in one building, but it is not the same thing by any means. 60 control is staffed by their own dispatchers and handles dispatch and communications, no training. The Westchester County Fire Training Center is staffed by their own staff and instructors and handles the training needs of the county. They are two completely separate entities, they don't cross staff or hate responsibilities. It's a good idea to get your facts straight before you open up your mouth, especially when you want to keep insisting you're right when you're actually dead wrong.

[Bottom of Da Hill 76]

It's the same location, it's located in different wings in one building, but it is not the same thing by any means. 60 control is staffed by their own dispatchers and handles dispatch and communications, no training. The Westchester County Fire Training Center is staffed by their own staff and instructors and handles the training needs of the county. They are two completely separate entities, they don't cross staff or hate responsibilities. It's a good idea to get your facts straight before you open up your mouth, especially when you want to keep insisting you're right when you're actually dead wrong.

really two separate entities?same location sorry if it bothers you. all under one roof or wing or what ever you want to call it.

[thebreeze 194]

really two separate entities?same location sorry if it bothers you. all under one roof or wing or what ever you want to call it.

Yes really, do you know what an entity is? Sorry being wrong and ignorant bothers you. Sharing space means nothing, it simply means they share a roof. They are completely separate other than this, when a PD and an FD share a building does that make them the same entity? No, absolutely not. Same case here, separate staff, separate budget, separate function. Ignorance is bliss, so keep on smiling pal. It's clueless people like you that lack the ability to see beyond their own noses that make everyone else look bad and give the instructors at the WCFTC(read NOT 60 Control) something bad to talk about in the volunteer fire service.

[Bottom of Da Hill 76]

so i ask this if i go to 60 control or WCFTC do i still go to dana rd valhalla ? front door or the back door its the same place?i know what dispatchers do and what trainers do.i think they got what i ment.ignorance is bliss and its the same boss pal.

[sham-rock 4]

its funny that guys that like this work at 60 control as trainers and like bashing the the volunteers they get paid to train?thats a big problem with 60 control and hurts the fire service.this needs to stop,

Sorry but it's time for me to stop "lurking" and respond as I think you're outta bounds here! My instructors were all positive and encouraging and supportive. We are lucky to have these guys! Not sure why you got a problem with them but the only negativity I picked up was regarding individual volunteers who didn't take things seriously or acted in unprofessional manor.

By the way I assume you are talking about the fire academy when you said 60 control" not sure if you understand but that they're two different things. But you're and assistant chief so you should know that...or did you just win a popularity contest! Maybe you outta spend more time I the classroom in Valhala as the education may help you get your facts right!

[sham-rock 4]

so i ask this if i go to 60 control or WCFTC do i still go to dana rd valhalla ? front door or the back door its the same place?i know what dispatchers do and what trainers do.i think they got what i ment.ignorance is bliss and its the same boss pal.

Somebody send this guy a map. Sorry I shoulda said send this assistant chief a map.

[STAT213 332]

You guys done yet?

Thought we were here to find ways to IMPROVE things?! You guys are griping about what is under what roof. Enough already.

[M' Ave 1,466]

You guys done yet?

Thought we were here to find ways to IMPROVE things?! You guys are griping about what is under what roof. Enough already.

Yup.

The End.