Colonie Professional Firefighters Association Wins back pay

[nysff 18]

http://www.timesunion.com/local/article/Latham-fire-company-settles-case-restores-cuts-5605240.php

Story about the paid firefighters that staff two of the 12 volunteer departments in the Town of Colonie. This decision was involving the Latham Fire Department. The union represents both Latham and Shaker Road/Loudonville paid firefighters under one local.

[everybodygoes 331]

I don't ever recall seeing a civil service posting for firefighter in Albany County.

[nysff 18]

I don't ever recall seeing a civil service posting for firefighter in Albany County.

These two fire departments are Fire Protection Districts and do not fall under civil service status as they are private corp. that contract with the town. There is however a civil service test for Albany County that would cover any fire district or village that would want to hire firefighters, such as the Village of Green Island.

[everybodygoes 331]

So they are not firefighters.

[nysff 18]

So they are not firefighters.

This has already been addressed in prior posts about the Albany/Colonie area. They are titled firefighters, just are not required to be civil service tested as a private corporation can not give a civil service exam. The IAFF obviously must consider them as firefighters or they would not be in the IAFFas local 4924. As far as the training requirements that they fall under, I am not sure what each department requires of their firefighters. I am not associated with either one of these departments so I couldn't tell you. I do know that civil service firefighters have state mandated training requirements that have also been discussed on the forum in length in the past.

[everybodygoes 331]

The same way guys in Long Island refer to themselves as firefighters when they are not. It is a civil service title. Some places in the country have firefighters represented by the Teamsters. The IAFF is not looking to turn away members who will provide more money. I only wish i didn't have to contribute to it.

[mfc2257 464]

The same way guys in Long Island refer to themselves as firefighters when they are not. It is a civil service title. Some places in the country have firefighters represented by the Teamsters. The IAFF is not looking to turn away members who will provide more money. I only wish i didn't have to contribute to it.

So what is your definition of a firefighter?

[mfc2257 464]

So what is your definition of a firefighter?

Hello?

[everybodygoes 331]

What is a firefighter when you are employed as one? You complete a CPAT for one, you take a civil service exam. Unless of course you forgot the rural metro BS back in the 90's. When you die, your family gets paid. You have benefits that have been awarded. The list could go on and on. In NYS sitting in a firehouse for 11 bucks an hour and driving the rig because the dept can not get anyone to respond is not doing a damn thing for anyone but getting 500 gallons of water somewhere. How is that? Sorry to keep you waiting, but real firefighters work nights and weekends too!

[mfc2257 464]

What is a firefighter when you are employed as one? You complete a CPAT for one, you take a civil service exam. Unless of course you forgot the rural metro BS back in the 90's. When you die, your family gets paid. You have benefits that have been awarded. The list could go on and on. In NYS sitting in a firehouse for 11 bucks an hour and driving the rig because the dept can not get anyone to respond is not doing a damn thing for anyone but getting 500 gallons of water somewhere. How is that? Sorry to keep you waiting, but real firefighters work nights and weekends too!

Hey no worries about making me wait. I was just curious if your claim that the title firefighter is a civil service title was something legit or just more of the BS that you spew on this site.

FYI "real" firefighters never have to delineate themselves as such.

Nighty night!

Edited July 9, 2014 by mfc2257

[firebuff860 54]

What is a firefighter when you are employed as one? You complete a CPAT for one, you take a civil service exam. Unless of course you forgot the rural metro BS back in the 90's. When you die, your family gets paid. You have benefits that have been awarded. The list could go on and on. In NYS sitting in a firehouse for 11 bucks an hour and driving the rig because the dept can not get anyone to respond is not doing a damn thing for anyone but getting 500 gallons of water somewhere. How is that? Sorry to keep you waiting, but real firefighters work nights and weekends too!

So you take one physical fitness test and you are good for 20+ years. Cash in the pocket of your loved ones should you die, Health benefits paid for. You are a perfect example of why the fire service is going down the tubes. Not a mention of training, having a desire to be in the fire service, wanting to learn and teach those younger than you. BTW your last sentence is apparently a bash at volunteers, and I and many of my brothers respond day and night along with weekends! I would rather crawl down a hall with a younger volunteer fresh out of FF 1 and 2 than some of the career guys who have been holding on for 30+ years without doing a sit up.

[everybodygoes 331]

Your blatant ignorance is what made you think it was a bash at volunteers. When many of us are at work we don't have the leisure of logging on to a website to answer some idiot on a computer. I volunteer as well, I volunteer with many many many great aggressive people. If someone asked them what they did for a living and they responded I am a firefighter I would always ask where did you get hired. Too many people use the title with out earning it. I sat in an academy for 14 weeks breaking my a$$ for my title. I didn't apply for a job at the town hall and get hired because I took FF 1 and 2 which has no comparison to the required amount of training for a professional firefighter.

How is that answer? Not that I felt I needed to answer some guy who feels the title of ex-captain is deserving of anything and I always see the lic plates and laugh.

[mfc2257 464]

I didn't say anything about you bashing volunteers. Just wanted to see if your opinion was based on facts or BS. You answered my question by responding with more BS which is exactly what I knew you would do when I baited you with the question. You're predictable.

My title of Ex-Captain merely identifies who I am and my connection to the fire service in the NY metro area. Can't say that I see anything written there that implies that I deserve anything. I'll chock that up to another fact free BS post on your part.

Edited July 9, 2014 by mfc2257

[16fire5 693]

As for facts I believe all the requirements for professional firefighters in NYS kick in if you department employs 6 or more staff. If less no 229, no 100 hours in service ect. There's even some paid drivers left in the state meaning that's their civil service title. The long island issue is separate since they have civil service employees in titles like janitor being used as career staff.

[everybodygoes 331]

It is BS because you never were deserving of the title, except the one you were given by a popularity election. And your lack of reading comprehension must make you fit right in down there.

[mfc2257 464]

It is BS because you never were deserving of the title, except the one you were given by a popularity election. And your lack of reading comprehension must make you fit right in down there.

I comprehend just fine. I'm curios, where is "down there"?

This discussion amuses me quite a bit. The more you type, the bigger prick you make your self out to be.

Where is the the department that is blessed to have you as an employee?

[everybodygoes 331]

What is even more entertaining is this banter you provide. Those I have spoken to in Millwood laughed when i mentioned your name. They also couldn't understand why you would refer to yourself as an ex-captain, another made up fantasy land title.

[mfc2257 464]

What is even more entertaining is this banter you provide. Those I have spoken to in Millwood laughed when i mentioned your name. They also couldn't understand why you would refer to yourself as an ex-captain, another made up fantasy land title.

Ok folks… who other than me is going to call this guy out. Go to his profile, read the contributions he has made in previous threads. None of them are productive. The post quoted above is as fictitious as it gets.

[everybodygoes 331]

And the guys sending me PM's are all wrong and delusional like you? I am sure. I am just not in to the pussification of the fire service and the BS hand holding. So you can contribute with your cheerleading and I will be the parent in the stand saying you suck Ref! Ill be the one keeping it real, you'll be the other guy.

[mfc2257 464]

What guys, what PMs. You talk in cryptic nonsense!

What's your name? Where do you work? You know my name, former department, and where I live now.

Who the hell are you. Talk about pussification, come out from behind keyboard. You're like a baby that doesn't want to give up the tit!!!!

99 out of 100 guys like you don't have the balls to talk like this in person. The 1 guy who does is hated by anyone who has to endure their presence on a regular basis.

Man up. Who the F are you!

[sueg 77]

Come on kids, play nice. We are all in the same sandbox - just some have more, bigger or more job-specific toys; or more training - either ongoing drills, required training classes, or training that you pursue on your own so you are better prepared and expand your knowledge for the job - and sometimes even a heck of a lot more calls to fine tune your experience. Doing the job right, having the knowledge to be flexible as fire or scene conditions change and trying your hardest to do it well and keeping informed as newer hazards rear their ugly heads in our line of work should be the goal of paid and volunteer firefighters, without exception.

Back to the original subject:

When the Union President stated that it was okay to just tell the other paid firefighter that he was sick and left the job without telling anyone else, that hits me as extremely strange, especially since he was one of only two paid on duty. Shouldn't someone on the administrative end have been notified who could call in another one of the paid guys, like the part-time one they mentioned, to cover and finish his shift? I can fully understand why he had at least a five-day suspension, cannot see why they are rescinding and back-paying him for that just to avoid the expenses of a full law suit trial. He left them short-handed without telling anyone else but his co-worker, and unless they did not have any calls to cover in that time period and lucked out, cannot see any justification for his thinking that was okay because "that's how it was done in the past". Same lame excuse the Charleston commander gave without seeing anything wrong with not giving report to the arriving IC and ignoring ICS and NIMS, even though he lost 9 firefighters in the fire and collapse. Though admittedly very different scenarios, but same ignorant attitude. If I tried that at work, I might be looking for another job relatively quickly.

[Bnechis 3,961]

1) When the Union President stated that it was okay to just tell the other paid firefighter that he was sick and left the job without telling anyone else, that hits me as extremely strange, especially since he was one of only two paid on duty. Shouldn't someone on the administrative end have been notified who could call in another one of the paid guys, like the part-time one they mentioned, to cover and finish his shift?

2) I can fully understand why he had at least a five-day suspension, cannot see why they are rescinding and back-paying him for that just to avoid the expenses of a full law suit trial.

3) He left them short-handed without telling anyone else but his co-worker, and unless they did not have any calls to cover in that time period and lucked out, cannot see any justification for his thinking that was okay because "that's how it was done in the past".

1) Many small combo depts. that do not have a career chief or admin operate this way. A common complaint to the IAFF is total lack of admin policies & procedures. I have seen a number of these depts. that routinely will not replace career members, even for scheduled time off.

2) Because labor laws are pretty clear, if they do not have a written policy, then management is wrong and they are going to lose the case. better to drop it before paying the lawyers to lose it.

3) Because that's how they do it. In other words that's this depts. policy. Stupid policy yes, but their are lots of stupid policies out there.

[FireMedic049 597]

When the Union President stated that it was okay to just tell the other paid firefighter that he was sick and left the job without telling anyone else, that hits me as extremely strange, especially since he was one of only two paid on duty. Shouldn't someone on the administrative end have been notified who could call in another one of the paid guys, like the part-time one they mentioned, to cover and finish his shift?

Yes, going home sick without notification to management and possibly being relieved is certainly "extremely strange" to most of us, but as Bnechis pointed out, this isn't a unique situation.

I can fully understand why he had at least a five-day suspension, cannot see why they are rescinding and back-paying him for that just to avoid the expenses of a full law suit trial.

Based on the information presented in the article linked, I got the impression that the suspension was a secondary matter. The main matter being litigated was the unilateral changes to compensation and work schedule that the fire company imposed. These actions were clearly a violation of labor law and if the matter proceeded, the company would (in all likelihood) have lost the matter and spend substantial money on attorney/court costs and then additional back wages for what could easily be an additional 6-12 months while that process played out.

He left them short-handed without telling anyone else but his co-worker, and unless they did not have any calls to cover in that time period and lucked out, cannot see any justification for his thinking that was okay because "that's how it was done in the past". Same lame excuse the Charleston commander gave without seeing anything wrong with not giving report to the arriving IC and ignoring ICS and NIMS, even though he lost 9 firefighters in the fire and collapse. Though admittedly very different scenarios, but same ignorant attitude.

Again, if the fire company has no written policy regarding this type of situation, then you have to look at "informal policy", also known as "past practice" for guidance on what to do. Based on the "that's how it was done in the past" comment, it's highly likely that there isn't a written policy. So, if it has been common practice to not make notification to management when someone leaves work for whatever reason and management has failed to correct that practice from its onset or thru subsequent negotiations with the union, the fire company doesn't have a basis for imposing discipline in this case, barring other extenuating circumstances that substantially make this situation different from those in the past.

Since the judge ruled to overturn the suspension, I would guess that the fire company failed to show an established policy or practice that was violated and probably failed to show past disciplinary measures for prior occurrences.

If I tried that at work, I might be looking for another job relatively quickly.

I probably would be too, but we have a clearly understood procedure for this type of situation. You have to notify the on-duty shift boss for the OK to leave.

[JunebugKFD257 48]

The same way guys in Long Island refer to themselves as firefighters when they are not. It is a civil service title. Some places in the country have firefighters represented by the Teamsters. The IAFF is not looking to turn away members who will provide more money. I only wish i didn't have to contribute to it.

Why not? Has your Local done a disservice to you?