Yorktown firehouse defeated in 'stealth' vote

[Healz 30]

If YFD had paid members to roll out immediately this station would work. Without that it is a hidden away party palace.

[FirNaTine 370]

If YFD had paid members to roll out immediately this station would work. Without that it is a hidden away party palace.

Exactly!!!

[201/65 94]

With all these numbers being thrown around I decided to use the Comptrollers website, Open Book NY, to see what the actual financial condition of the district has been since the first referendum in 1999.

*Note*

I've never even been to Yorktown, but have done a lot of studying on wasteful spending with poor service by fire districts here in OC.

FY 2000

Total Budget - $703,929

Tax Levy - $652,800

Total Expenditures - $898,598

"Capital Reserve" - $366,176

FY 2013

Total Budget - $1,136,291

Tax Levy - $1,128,616

Total Expenditures - $721,945

"Capital Reserve" - $2,718,233

"Reserve for Repairs" - $265,464

Total Change 2000 - In this time it appears there were 5 large apparatus purchases.

Tax Levy - $+475,816 (72.88%)

Expenditures (will be off as they bought an engine in 2000) $-176,653 (-19.65%)

"Capital Reserve" - $+2,352,057 (642.32%)

Edited July 8, 2014 by 201/65

[TFD141@aol.com 26]

This station would improve their ISO rating in that portion of the fire district, possibly paying for the station through lower insurance costs to each homeowner. Manning could be built up once a station and apparatus are made available nearby. We all belong or have belonged to FD's and should show support when our neighboring brothers & sisters need something passed like facilities and apparatus. Armonk has future bunk rooms built in. There are others that have plans or want to build bunk rooms, but it is hard to spend for future possibilities in this tough economic climate and get it approved by voters. I would suggest you look at the the large increase in a budget before stating to hire career staff. A station costs you once for 10 or 20 years, staffing costs never go down or away. Career versus Volunteer staffing is determined by the number and frequency of calls, obviously YHFD is doing fine with staffing as is.

[antiquefirelt 994]

To withdraw monies in a Capital Reserve account, it needs to be put out to a permissive referendum. Basically the district must ask public permission to spend the $ the district already has.

BTW- I meant no disrespect to those FD's who are part of the fire districts, it's just this concept is foreign to us up here. We're prohibited by state law from enacting any new tax not levied by the State. There are no private fire districts and no mechanism for them, so every FD is either a municipal FD (VFD/career/combo) or a private non-profit that is contracted by the town. The private FD's cannot levy taxes but exist only on donations or when the town issues a tax to support them by "donating". Even the most lavish FD's in the wealthiest towns are spartan compared to many I've visited in NY, NJ and PA.

[FirNaTine 370]

Career versus Volunteer staffing is determined by the number and frequency of calls, obviously YHFD is doing fine with staffing as is.

By whose account? What's their average response time especially at 3am? On average how many times do they have to re- tone for manpower,chauffers etc.etc.. Those are the questions that need to be answered, not build a new Station that won't be manned or purchase new apparatus that will barely move anyway.

[Bnechis 3,961]

1) This station would improve their ISO rating in that portion of the fire district, possibly paying for the station through lower insurance costs to each homeowner.

2) Manning could be built up once a station and apparatus are made available nearby.

3) We all belong or have belonged to FD's and should show support when our neighboring brothers & sisters need something passed like facilities and apparatus.

4) I would suggest you look at the the large increase in a budget before stating to hire career staff.

5) A station costs you once for 10 or 20 years, staffing costs never go down or away.

6) Career versus Volunteer staffing is determined by the number and frequency of calls, obviously YHFD is doing fine with staffing as is.

1) Have spent a tremendous amount of time doing ISO evaluations I can easily say this is a very costly maybe. I have not studied YHFD so my statements on this are very general.

a. I understand that some parts of YHFD do not have hydrant protection, if the area south of the Croton (the area the Board wants to build) has no hydrants, then they could build 50 fire stations and staff them with 100 firefighters each and they will not improve their ISO rating better than a 9 unless they demonstrate to ISO that they can move water. Since no dept. in the Hudson valley has proven this, its unlikely that adding a house will change it.

b. If the area has a rated hydrant system, then a new fire station, if operational (meaning the rig responds to a majority of calls in its area as a 1st due unit) can drop the rating rater substantially. But a signed automatic aid agreement for a single engine from Millwood (with the balance of response from YHFD) would give the exact same ISO improvement at no cost to the taxpayers.

c. Any insurance improvements from a new station would only benefit the area south of the Croton R. So every property owner in the district gets to pay for it, while only a small portion benefit financially (maybe).

2) Since the majority of depts. (career or volunteer) have not gained staffing (locally, regionally, state or nationally) this is a rather unlikely gamble. What happens if as the fire chief said he expects no responders from this area? Or what if this new station which is now priced as bare bones as it can be, attracts members away from Millwood?

3) When the Chief of the Department says: "I will put a rig there if the Board Orders me too, but no one will be responding from this house" who are we supporting? If they build this and no one comes, then the next time any dept wants to and needs to how will that affect the attitude of all of the voters?

4) I agree, But 1st look at the response times and staffing numbers. If the dept is doing a good job, then its not worth hiring. If they are having trouble turning out, then the cost is worth it, when your house is on fire or your pinned in your car. And since you pointed it out, the single biggest score changer under ISO is staffing and even with this years massive rewriting of the insurance rating schedule, the NYS insurance commission agreed that manned stations need 1/3 of the number of firefighters per response as those that are responding from home or work. ISO wants a minimum of 36 volunteers and an IC on every reported fire in the initial response. But a manned station/dept only needs 12 and an IC to get the same score.

5) While staffing costs may never go down, I have never heard of an building, including fire stations having no costs. Their is maintenance, fuel, insurance and since this is an additional station, often requires additional apparatus.

6) Wrong career vs. volunteer staffing is based on availability of volunteer responders. If you have only a few calls, but no volunteers show up, then you can get away with it for a long time before something goes bad. If you have a lot of calls and a lot of volunteers show up, then you also do not need career.

I have no idea if YHFD has high or low volume or if it has adequate staffing. I also do not believe they need to build a station and staff it with career personnel. Most communities in Westchester that have volunteers and have response problems (some of the time or all of the time) need to consider consolidation with the adjacent depts., long before they consider hiring.

[FFEMT150 214]

By whose account? What's their average response time especially at 3am? On average how many times do they have to re- tone for manpower,chauffers etc.etc.. Those are the questions that need to be answered, not build a new Station that won't be manned or purchase new apparatus that will barely move anyway.

Never mind 3am. What about 2pm on a weekday? I've seen departments roll out with two full engines and a full truck at 3am and can't even get a driver in the afternoon.

[BFD1054 1,552]

How about a dual response??? Or will that compromise the relationship and ego's between Millwood and Yorktown when one or the other arrives first due to a job???

BBBMF, how dare you suggest dual response procedures, that's almost leaning toward consolidation....gasp, blasphemy 😳😉.

The kamount of commercial property in Yorktown should dictate a paid driver at least. IBM alone should pay for the firehouse.

Sir, while I agree with many of your posts/statements, I have to respectfully disagree with this one. In my humble opinion (mind you I'm just some silly volly), a paid "driver" would do no good for anyone. A paid driver would just create smoke and mirrors and would be useless for the FD members, let alone the towns citizens.

Edited July 9, 2014 by BFD1054

[BFD1054 1,552]

Excellent points sir. I believe you've (in short order) hit the nail on the head. Why build a station in an area where there are few members to respond from/to? It makes no sense financially or logistically.

I don't know the specifics of this district, but since it is going to be a volunteer station, with volunteers responding to get the apparatus, does it make operational sense to even build a station? As someone pointed out, residents in that area probably are already members of another department. Given the method that a department like this staffs apparatus, station location might be better off based on where drivers respond from not where the apparatus will be responding to.

Excellent points sir. I believe you've (in short order) hit the nail on the head. Why build a station in an area where there are few members to respond from/to? It makes no sense financially or logistically.

16fire5,

Sir, you make excellent, valid points. But again, to suggest automatic aid or any form of such...how dare you! Joking aside, I can not fathom why auto-aid between the two agencies would NOT be utilized, especially in the area of question.

***I apologize for the multiple posts and quotes, having trouble posting, attempting to fix

If YFD had paid members to roll out immediately this station would work. Without that it is a hidden away party palace.

If YHFD had paid members, they would be best strategically placed at the existing stations and respond as such. Placing a paid "driver" (not your words), would solve nothing. It would just guarantee that a rig (engine, truck, tanker, go-cart) would arrive on scene in a timely manner with NO manpower.

TFD141,

I'm all for supporting my fellow brothers and sisters, believe me. But to have that support, I must be convinced of a certain need and function. In this case, I see no need or function.

As shown, this has been shot down on numerous occasions with even very few members supporting it. In addition, it had been put on record that if built, this station would be most likely used as storage.

I'm NOT a resident/voter in the district in question (not even close), but even as a fellow volunteer FF, I'd have my reservations.

Edited July 9, 2014 by BFD1054

[Healz 30]

Sir, while I agree with many of your posts/statements, I have to respectfully disagree with this one. In my humble opinion (mind you I'm just some silly volly), a paid "driver" would do no good for anyone. A paid driver would just create smoke and mirrors and would be useless for the FD members, let alone the towns citizens.

There are no Paid Drivers In Westchester. This is a derogatory term used by Volunteers to demean their jobs as Professional Firefighters that work in combo departments. Professional Firefighters in Lake Mohegan, Peekskill are fully trained in the NYS academy and are Firefighters, Not Paid Drivers.

[BFD1054 1,552]

There are no Paid Drivers In Westchester. This is a derogatory term used by Volunteers to demean their jobs as Professional Firefighters that work in combo departments. Professional Firefighters in Lake Mohegan, Peekskill are fully trained in the NYS academy and are Firefighters, Not Paid Drivers.

Whoooooa easy there....believe me, I know this very well as many of my friends are Career, professional firefighters, many of whom serve in combo depts.

Like I said, those weren't your words and I apologize. Another member suggested that YHFD would benefit from having at least a paid "driver."

I don't agree with that idea, nor do I use that term when actually relating to career/professional FFs.

Again, my apologies sir.

[thebreeze 194]

There are no Paid Drivers In Westchester. This is a derogatory term used by Volunteers to demean their jobs as Professional Firefighters that work in combo departments. Professional Firefighters in Lake Mohegan, Peekskill are fully trained in the NYS academy and are Firefighters, Not Paid Drivers.

Town of Mamroneck, paid drivers

[KRF178 49]

Town of Mamroneck, paid drivers

Seriously?

You're not even close, as Healz stated, there is no such title in any Westchester county FD.

The Town of Mamaroneck Professional Firefighters are just like any other firefighting job, they are tested both written and physically, academy trained by PROFESSIONALS, and are titled as a firefighter upon their graduation. The entrance exam isn't classified as a "paid driver" but rather as "firefighter" I urge you to read the job description on the WC gov website and maybe rethink your post/thoughts about this. It's a disrespectful, derogatory term used by people who are more than likely jealous that they never took/could pass the exam, or are threatened by professional firefighters education and knowledge of the career path they chose.

With that being said, respect to those who can see further than their nose, and work alongside the career members of combo depts without any drama, jealousy or anger towards them.

Disclaimer: I am not in any way shape or form affiliated with or represent the interests or opinions of the Town of Mamaroneck Professional FF's

[thebreeze 194]

Seriously?

You're not even close, as Healz stated, there is no such title in any Westchester county FD.

The Town of Mamaroneck Professional Firefighters are just like any other firefighting job, they are tested both written and physically, academy trained by PROFESSIONALS, and are titled as a firefighter upon their graduation. The entrance exam isn't classified as a "paid driver" but rather as "firefighter" I urge you to read the job description on the WC gov website and maybe rethink your post/thoughts about this. It's a disrespectful, derogatory term used by people who are more than likely jealous that they never took/could pass the exam, or are threatened by professional firefighters education and knowledge of the career path they chose.

With that being said, respect to those who can see further than their nose, and work alongside the career members of combo depts without any drama, jealousy or anger towards them.

Disclaimer: I am not in any way shape or form affiliated with or represent the interests or opinions of the Town of Mamaroneck Professional FF's

What do they ultimately do? Drive. You can call a duck an eagle, but it's still a duck.

[Bnechis 3,961]

What do they ultimately do? Drive. You can call a duck an eagle, but it's still a duck.

Is this needed. If you want to really drop to that level some volunteer firefighters should have the title "parade walker" since that's what they ultimately do.

Career firefighters in combo depts. have the same training as the all career depts. and when they arrive on scene with no help, they get to do it all.

[thebreeze 194]

Is this needed. If you want to really drop to that level some volunteer firefighters should have the title "parade walker" since that's what they ultimately do.

Career firefighters in combo depts. have the same training as the all career depts. and when they arrive on scene with no help, they get to do it all.

I call out parade walkers too, it doesn't phase me. I have no problem with either career or volunteer, at all. The risks are equal for both, I understand that, the bathtub falling through the floor isn't going to discriminate who it falls on, training can't prevent every possible misfortune. The simple fact if the matter is though, that some firefighters don't do much more than drive the rig to a fire. It's a needed position, I understand, they get the apparatus to the scene and operate it, it's ultimately the most important position. Some departments have this covered by a designated chauffeur, the guy chosen to drive for the tour, some sit and wait for a chauffeur to come from home, some have the guy who drives the rig there himself, stretches, operates, and puts the fire out, and some have someone who drives there, operates the rig, and that's it. I don't have any problem with any of these, it doesn't bother me nearly as much as parades do, I don't begrudge anyone of the titles they earn in whatever established academy they attend. Your civil service title can be firefighter, your position in the department can just be that of chauffeur, it happens, we all know it. There are police officers who are just the station janitor, you still call them a police officer, but you know what they do. In a career department the positions are often established at the beginning of every tour, volunteer, whoever wants it and gets there first gets it, combination departments use multiple different systems, some of which, designate the paid member, as the driver, every time. As I mentioned before, that falling bathtub will hit whoever is underneath it, but it will never hit the guy or gal who is never inside.

[KRF178 49]

I call out parade walkers too, it doesn't phase me. I have no problem with either career or volunteer, at all. The risks are equal for both, I understand that, the bathtub falling through the floor isn't going to discriminate who it falls on, training can't prevent every possible misfortune. The simple fact if the matter is though, that some firefighters don't do much more than drive the rig to a fire. It's a needed position, I understand, they get the apparatus to the scene and operate it, it's ultimately the most important position. Some departments have this covered by a designated chauffeur, the guy chosen to drive for the tour, some sit and wait for a chauffeur to come from home, some have the guy who drives the rig there himself, stretches, operates, and puts the fire out, and some have someone who drives there, operates the rig, and that's it. I don't have any problem with any of these, it doesn't bother me nearly as much as parades do, I don't begrudge anyone of the titles they earn in whatever established academy they attend. Your civil service title can be firefighter, your position in the department can just be that of chauffeur, it happens, we all know it. There are police officers who are just the station janitor, you still call them a police officer, but you know what they do. In a career department the positions are often established at the beginning of every tour, volunteer, whoever wants it and gets there first gets it, combination departments use multiple different systems, some of which, designate the paid member, as the driver, every time. As I mentioned before, that falling bathtub will hit whoever is underneath it, but it will never hit the guy or gal who is never inside.

A driver/chauffeur is a position or assignment on a crew, not a job title..which is what you said about the Career members of TMFD. Not sure if you an axe to grind with them, nor is it any of my business, nor do I care. In most combo departments the career personnel do operate the apparatus, but that's not the limit to their duties. Show up on the scene of a working fire at 11am on Monday at a combo dept, most incidents will have one career FF outside as a MPO, while making a hydrant, monitoring fire conditions, or the laundry list of other jobs that need to be done on the scene. Being done by the MPO, all while he's keeping an eye on his gauges. Yes, I know the MPO is supposed to be glued to the panel, but with insufficient manpower, and the balance of the on shift members working inside, ya gotta do what ya gotta do. The days of "oh the paid guys just drive" have long since passed. But I guess the archaic, dinosaur way of thinking is still around.

[Dinosaur 844]

A driver/chauffeur is a position or assignment on a crew, not a job title..which is what you said about the Career members of TMFD. Not sure if you an axe to grind with them, nor is it any of my business, nor do I care. In most combo departments the career personnel do operate the apparatus, but that's not the limit to their duties. Show up on the scene of a working fire at 11am on Monday at a combo dept, most incidents will have one career FF outside as a MPO, while making a hydrant, monitoring fire conditions, or the laundry list of other jobs that need to be done on the scene. Being done by the MPO, all while he's keeping an eye on his gauges. Yes, I know the MPO is supposed to be glued to the panel, but with insufficient manpower, and the balance of the on shift members working inside, ya gotta do what ya gotta do. The days of "oh the paid guys just drive" have long since passed. But I guess the archaic, dinosaur way of thinking is still around.

Hey! What's wrong with dinosaurs?

[KRF178 49]

Hey! What's wrong with dinosaurs?

LOL, much love to the dinosaurs!!