Vista's 10-75 - Helmet Cam Footage

[x4093k 654]

Video from Vistas house fire last week. Thoughts? I personally see a couple of issues.

(not my video)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r0NMy05tbVU

Edited June 27, 2014 by x4093k

[everybodygoes 331]

Delete this video. Unless of course you want to get ripped apart. If so be prepared.

[SECTMB 612]

Well, rather than taking the 'ripped apart' road, maybe it can be used for constructive criticism that may benefit all concerned at future incidents. Emphasis on the constructive.

[goon16 155]

Even if you suggest "constructive" criticism on this site people delete the posts and tell you it's an inflammatory comment. Apparently most people on these boards don't have thick skin and can't take it

[Viper 139]

Even if you suggest "constructive" criticism on this site people delete the posts and tell you it's an inflammatory comment. Apparently most people on these boards don't have thick skin and can't take it

And your post is constructive how? I don't think you understand the definition of "inflammatory post", because you just made one.

Maybe you need to keep your commentary to yourself as you obviously have no interest in contributing to this topic, except for the fact of trying to discourage other members from posting in it..

[LineCapt 134]

Even if you suggest "constructive" criticism on this site people delete the posts and tell you it's an inflammatory comment. Apparently most people on these boards don't have thick skin and can't take it

The Viper, what did you expect from this person?

goon noun \ˈgün\

: a person who is hired to threaten, beat up, or kill someone

: a stupid person

a man hired to terrorize or eliminate opponents

[goon16 155]

I'm just speaking from personal expierence that has happened to me from posting constructive criticism and for warning others.

My post and my username have nothing to do with my intellegence or anything like that it's just my personal opinion

And yes I do agree with the op that there were a few tactics that need to be reviewed and worked on

[everybodygoes 331]

FYI I have shown this link to firemen from other states and the response is disbelief. Why anyone would EVER share this is beyond me.

[bigrig77 95]

OK where to begin:

• Flake the kinks out your hose.
• in the door is not the time for a nozzle change. Also the combination tip works just fine if thats what you got on the hose.
• Don't just stand around.
• 1:00 min mark: don't leave your helmet on the ground and walk away from it.
• After 2:00 mark, is that sound electric wires arcing or just random background sounds the mic is picking up?
• don't shoor water at a sparking wire.
• No communications about venting. I will assume from the looks of things that a inside attack was not going down so it is not like you were cordinationg with a hose team
• 2:51 min in. Don't do that with your nozzle, ever
• 3:40 min in. Don't ask for more pressure if you have 20 kinks in your line. Unkink your line.
• Try not to let the fire get away from you
• door control
• Fire - don't just stare at it, put it out. alot of non-fighting going on here.
• Choose the right size hose for the job. Where is your 2 1/2"? Big fire means big water.

OK i know some of these are kinda knit picky but i just gave it a quick watching. I am not gonna say you guys suck or that was horrible cause everyone in the county is working short staffed and heavily rely on mutaul aid. Was this firemen a probie? was it his first job? These are all things that change the way we view these "mistakes" . I would expect a fresh out FF1 kid to not know everything there is to know. He is gonna stand around and wait to be told. A seasoned guy is gonna get it done and move with purpose and speed.

I hope this is seen as constructive. I tried to give real advice and insight. All we can see is a snippit of the whole picture. clearly there is alot going on in this house (as seen form the smoke coming from otehr parts of house).

[AFS1970 504]

One thing I noticed about the video is that it seemed a bit choppy. I assume that is due to editing, and having some bits removed for brevity. However that could make things worse as it actually shows more time between things shown on the video.

[everybodygoes 331]

You ever try and put out a fire inside a private dwelling with a 2.5? The line is fine, just need someone to operate it!

[SECTMB 612]

OK where to begin:

• Flake the kinks out your hose.
• in the door is not the time for a nozzle change. Also the combination tip works just fine if thats what you got on the hose.
• Don't just stand around.
• 1:00 min mark: don't leave your helmet on the ground and walk away from it.
• After 2:00 mark, is that sound electric wires arcing or just random background sounds the mic is picking up?
• don't shoor water at a sparking wire.
• No communications about venting. I will assume from the looks of things that a inside attack was not going down so it is not like you were cordinationg with a hose team
• 2:51 min in. Don't do that with your nozzle, ever
• 3:40 min in. Don't ask for more pressure if you have 20 kinks in your line. Unkink your line.
• Try not to let the fire get away from you
• door control
• Fire - don't just stare at it, put it out. alot of non-fighting going on here.
• Choose the right size hose for the job. Where is your 2 1/2"? Big fire means big water.

OK i know some of these are kinda knit picky but i just gave it a quick watching. I am not gonna say you guys suck or that was horrible cause everyone in the county is working short staffed and heavily rely on mutaul aid. Was this firemen a probie? was it his first job? These are all things that change the way we view these "mistakes" . I would expect a fresh out FF1 kid to not know everything there is to know. He is gonna stand around and wait to be told. A seasoned guy is gonna get it done and move with purpose and speed.

I hope this is seen as constructive. I tried to give real advice and insight. All we can see is a snippit of the whole picture. clearly there is alot going on in this house (as seen form the smoke coming from otehr parts of house).

This is what I was referring to when I talked about constructive criticism. Valid observations which can be used to effect a different and possibly better outcome at the next alarm.

I also agree, notwithstanding a later post, that a 2-1/2 would have been my choice. We have become too reliant on the easily accessible cross lay 1-3/4. If you have the manpower, again if, three guys with a 2-1/2 can put out a lot of room and contents fire quicker than a 1-3/4. Time change, at one time for basements and first floors, you always put a 2-1/2 into service.

I can't ever recall an alarm over my 37 years where an after action analysis wouldn't produce something that could have been done differently to achieve a possibly better outcome. Sometimes there are valid reasons for doing something in a way that does not translate to a video viewing as the entire scene can not be taken into account. That is why we should engage in constructive criticism not critical analysis. There is a difference.

[goon16 155]

If you have 3 competent men on a line then a 2 1/2 isn't a problem. When you have guys that are having a hard time stretching a 1 3/4 line moving up to a 2 1/2 might be hard for them. They need a back to basic class just to go over the basics of stretching lines, choosing the right line for the conditions and building type, proper ventilation, door control and a few other things but mostly stretching a line an chasing kinks, kinks will reduce the amoun of prussure at the nozzle and it seems that there were numerous kinks.

Noticed in the video he was wearing a leather helmet I know it had nothing to do with his ability as a fireman but a lot people think it's a fashion show rather than justworrying about putting the fire out and having the nessecary skills to do such. Sorry just my pet peeve Even though I prefer my leather over my plastic helmet because it's more comfortable to me

[everybodygoes 331]

You can not make turns in a private dwelling with a 2.5 try it you don't even need to flow water. And this fire was manageable before numb nuts decided to leave the front door open.

[goon16 155]

I agree with what you say everybody goes wasn't disagreeing.

[vfd173 1]

The engie crew was behind the 8 ball as soon as they arrived, only having a 2 man engine crew. The home owners had opened the doors and windows to the house when they smelt smoke, glass was melted out of the doors giving the reason they where not shut, Venting wasnt the number one priority because there was not enough people for the task, 250 ft cross lays are what is on the truck and only 150ft was needed, powerlines where down to the A/D side of the house (that was the popping) this is why kinks where chased for so long because of the tight area for 250ft of 1 3/4, smooth bore was chosen because thats what the officer and nozzleman perfered, nozzle was not changed in the door way as you can clearly see in the video it was around 3 feet out side before the hose was even charged and as the officer was chasing kinks, and the Leather helmet comment really what is this pre school.. a fashion show.. every one has personal preference, The department did the best they could with what they had. betting none of you where there so please dont bash it, there may be many things wrong but low volunteer levels are hurting every department and this is a prime example, no need for the monday morning quarterbacks.

[everybodygoes 331]

It takes 20 seconds at most to remove a hose coupling, 40 if you change the nozzle. This guy walked around for a good minute 15 doing nothing. I personally have extinguished a basement fire alone, dragged 150 ft of preconnected line, one guy pumping water, me extinguishing. Not safe, but my neighbors house is still standing. This is a gross example of a lack of either fortitude or training.

[SECTMB 612]

You can not make turns in a private dwelling with a 2.5 try it you don't even need to flow water. And this fire was manageable before numb nuts decided to leave the front door open.

"numb nuts" is not constructive and apparently erroneous. According to vfd173 the owners vented the structure prior to the departments arrival. That's how these discussions deteriorate and opportunities for learning go awry.

[goon16 155]

Would you call a critique Monday morning quarterbacking ? How can you learn from mistakes if they aren't discussed ? This is how we all learn from "low level volunteers" to the FDNY we all learn from mistakes that were made. Different people see different things in the video and each of them pointed it out. So take is as constructive criticism And if you think it's pre school about my leather helmet comment his actions speak for themselves just because he's wearing a leather helmet doesn't make him a better firefighter just makes him look like a poser. Maybe he should stop worrying about his image and worry more about his skills as a firefighter

[everybodygoes 331]

You grab the door knob and close it Tom, is that basic enough? Have no idea why you would even try to defend this lack of everything. Least the guy driving got the rig there safetly.

[soboss34 54]

"I personally have extinguished a basement fire alone, dragged 150 ft of preconnected line, one guy pumping water, me extinguishing. Not safe, but my neighbors house is still standing."

Really??? So your neighbor's "property" was worth risking your life and performing unsafe tactics for???? You just stated that even you have done things "not by the book" and I'm sure if you posted a video of it being done, you would have been verbally beaten to a pulp. Things were not done great in the video, but we all are aware of the limitations some departments face. I have seen things done improperly in both career and volunteer departments. Bashing volunteers or anyone for that matter won't help anyone. As mentioned earlier, constructive criticism is fine as long as everyone can learn from it and not be "bullied" into being afraid of ever questioning if there is a better or different way to do things.

[SECTMB 612]

Speaking of leather helmets, I miss mine. I was fortunate enough to have my own 'state of the art' turnouts before the department had nomex and bunkers. My first department had rubber coats and aluminum helmets. My New Yorker helmet was with me at all the memorable workers at the various departments I served with and then one day it went "missing". It never turned up and I never replaced it, just went with department issue plastic. I'd like to have it on my

shelf now, it's on somebody else's instead.

[Dinosaur 844]

It takes 20 seconds at most to remove a hose coupling, 40 if you change the nozzle. This guy walked around for a good minute 15 doing nothing. I personally have extinguished a basement fire alone, dragged 150 ft of preconnected line, one guy pumping water, me extinguishing. Not safe, but my neighbors house is still standing. This is a gross example of a lack of either fortitude or training.

Bragging about multiple failures doesn't advance the cause of the fire service. As people have pointed out the weaknesses in the video, the same can be done from your statement.

1. Responding with inadequate personnel (NFPA 1720, OSHA, and probably SOP)

2. No IC, no safety officer, no 2 out and no 2 in.

3. Acceptance of these willful violations because of a positive outcome.

4. Failure to address the inadequate personnel response.

5. What about searches (primary and secondary)?

The video is a failure on many levels and I'm shocked that the department allowed it to be posted. And I'm sure by now they know it's here too.

Let's not promote our failures. Let's try to improve and raise the bar so stories like these become a thing of the past.

[everybodygoes 331]

I have been running a calculated risk since I was able to make a conscious decision. If you think 12 guys who sit on a board that meets once every few years is in touch with reality you are sorely mistaken.

You could attempt to critique this video but it would be easier to just call it a failure. If anything its likely to end up in the benny hill hall of fame clip section of youtube. I can hear the music now, it plays every time they call from work!

[JackEMT 77]

How is this video gaining so much traction?

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/07/07/helmet-camera-firefighter-perspectuve_n_5552718.html

[SageVigiles 1,194]

I resisted watching this for awhile, but since its now got national attention all I'll say is this... Huffington Post is probably a good place for it...

[x152 179]

How bout this suggestion.....

Save your silly helmet cam for your next family trip and spend more time focused on getting water on the fire.

All of our new wonders in the service are more focused on crafting the next big fire/rock video for the annual banquet (which probably consumes 50% of the Depts annual budget), than learning the fundamentals of their trade.

[16fire5 693]

Here's my attempt at constructive criticism which I believe you open yourself up to when you post it for the world to see.

I have learned more about fire behavior in the last 5 years than in the 15 before that and I know everyone has not gotten there yet but we're working on it.

The fire was ventilation limited on arrival. I would have closed the front door until I was ready to enter. It would have limited the air the fire was getting.

Don't change the nozzle just make sure you have a straight stream.

I had no issue with the little hit they gave it from the outside it has the potential to make the push easier. That's all that was needed 10 seconds and then go in.

Use a 2 1/2 if you're not going in. Stick with the 1.75 if you will be going inside it's all about speed and maneuverability.

When there's one person in charge of the line it works better than getting advice from a few people.

You can become much faster and proficient with drilling. Practice pulling up stretching a line, masking up, and having water in 2 minutes or less.

[BBBMF 158]

Circumstances dictate procedures.... However, anybody who suggests dragging a 2.5" hose into a private dwelling should probably spend a little more time drilling with moving and operating handlines. By the time you have flaked, charged and started to operate the line, most if not all of the rest of the dwelling will be on fire. Not to mention, if you think you'll be able to efficiently maneuver the line, you're kidding yourself! Most rooms in private dwellings, even comtemporary construction with larger rooms, go out with 60 gallons or Less. So bring your 1.75" line that delivers 180 gpm and operate your line in each room for approx. 15 seconds and your fire should be knocked down in a few minutes with the booster tank!

[antiquefirelt 994]

Here's my attempt at constructive criticism which I believe you open yourself up to when you post it for the world to see.

I have learned more about fire behavior in the last 5 years than in the 15 before that and I know everyone has not gotten there yet but we're working on it.

The fire was ventilation limited on arrival. I would have closed the front door until I was ready to enter. It would have limited the air the fire was getting.

Don't change the nozzle just make sure you have a straight stream.

I had no issue with the little hit they gave it from the outside it has the potential to make the push easier. That's all that was needed 10 seconds and then go in.

Use a 2 1/2 if you're not going in. Stick with the 1.75 if you will be going inside it's all about speed and maneuverability.

When there's one person in charge of the line it works better than getting advice from a few people.

You can become much faster and proficient with drilling. Practice pulling up stretching a line, masking up, and having water in 2 minutes or less.

Bingo, that sums it up very well.