"New Invention To Save Lives During School Shootings" by People who "think"

[velcroMedic1987 330]

Simply saying "evacuate" isn't an answer!

Suppose there are additional suspects are outside or there are other hazards created specifically to injure first responders or evacuees.

What if it's an elementary school with 30 kids in the class and 1 teacher? You can't simply turn the kids loose without a plan for them to be accounted for and supervised.

[M' Ave 1,466]

Saying that gun control alone will solve any of this is fairly nearsighted. It ignores all of the other factors at play, such as mental illness and social media providing these loons with notoriety. Why not pass a bill that you may not print pictures of the victims of such crimes nor the perpetrator, take away their spotlight. It will take away some of their sick motivation.

I couldn't agree more. Gun control, far from the only answer. However, you can't pass a law that shreds the first amendment while everyone else stands on the second. Freedom of the press and all.....

Look, this turned into a referendum on the 2nd amendment, which was not my intention. The answer isn't simply gun control. However, to not address gun use and availability at all is similarly nearsighted.

The numbers don't lie. Countries with stricter gun laws or little gun culture have far fewer mass casualty incidents and this incidents result in fewer deaths.

I own a gun. I'm not on the sidelines, but I don't believe that the 2nd is all it's cracked up to be and I'm not worried that the gov't is going to take away my long gun.

People just have to get real about some reasonable restrictions, and I'm not talking about nonsense like Cuomo put in place last year.......

......or we could all go out to lunch at Chillis with our AR's.....like O.C.T.?

[38ff 250]

Sure there could be additional bad guys outside or IED's or whatever. And if there is that level of planning by the bad guys, they know what they are doing and people will surely die.


But in all the school shootings to date, it has been one or two nut jobs with weapons and ammo and a 1/2 assed plan. No real tactical planning. "Go there, shoot people and I will off myself when the LEOs get close. Hardly a well thought out tactical plan designed for mass killings.

All schools and locations are different. The evacuate plan would work well for my schools. Not so much for others perhaps.

As for supervision when getting out, like I said, I'd rather look for live kids hiding in the bushes for hours than counting the dead bodies stacked up like cordwood in a few minutes. Bottom line, even if kids get lost, eventually they will be found.

For a well trained group of bad guys with some brains, it's not hard to inflict mass casualties easily. Luckily, all the ones so far have been dumb nut jobs.

But the schools like it with easy accountability, dead or alive.

[antiquefirelt 994]

How about, "A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state..."? We no longer have militia because they are no longer necessary to the security of a free state. Does that invalidate the whole amendment? Again....room for interpretation.

While I'm pretty anti-gun control, it's really only because I think any measure will be a first step for some people (Bloomberg and his ilk). Nonetheless, with regard to "a well regulated militia" the SCOTUS has already indicated that this means any citizens that are armed and not prevented from lawful ownership that may come together in a future time of need to form a group. It's not up to individual interpretation, it's been clarified in at least two rulings.

Banning the firearms in any manner or further restricting the rights of law abiding American citizens will not solve the issue. Ensuring that firearms do not fall into the hands that don't meet the "law-abiding American" test, is part of the solution. But again, my support is only when they can guarantee this won't be a stepping stone toward further restrictions on lawful owners.

As for the door secure posted? I think they're a great idea, I know I sure don't have better answer than ensuring teachers have anything they want/need to buy time or secure their classrooms. No offense to our Law Enforcement brethren, but the collective experience on this kind of school shooting doesn't lead to tried and true practices, so awaiting an LEO approved/suggested solution may not result in an immediate decrease int he number of victims. Suggesting people outside the "biz" have nothing to offer is very shortsighted. We all to often see everything through the same set of eyes with the same view as yesterday, that rarely leads to the best solutions.

Edited June 16, 2014 by antiquefirelt

[Bnechis 3,961]

The numbers don't lie. Countries with stricter gun laws or little gun culture have far fewer mass casualty incidents and this incidents result in fewer deaths.

If it was only about guns and gun control, then how does one explain Switzerland?

The vast majority of men between the ages of 20 and 30 are conscripted into the militia and undergo military training, including weapons training. The personal weapons of the militia are kept at home as part of the military obligations; Switzerland thus has one of the highest gun ownership rates in the world.

The Swiss army has long been a militia trained and structured to rapidly respond against foreign aggression. Swiss males grow up expecting to undergo basic military training, usually at age 20 in the Rekrutenschule (recruit school), the basic-training camp, after which Swiss men remain part of the "militia" in reserve capacity until age 30 (age 34 for officers).

Each soldier is required to keep his army-issued personal weapon (the 5.56x45mm SIG SG 550 rifle for enlisted personnel and/or the 9mm SIG P220 semi-automatic pistol for officers, military police, medical and postal personnel) at home or (as of 2010) in the local armoury (Zeughaus).

When their period of service has ended, militiamen have the choice of keeping their personal weapon and other selected items of their equipment.^{[citation needed]} However, keeping the weapon after end of service requires a license.

The sale of ammunition – including Gw Pat.90 rounds for army-issue assault rifles – is subsidized by the Swiss government and made available at the many shooting ranges patronized by both private citizens and members of the militia. There is a regulatory requirement that ammunition sold at ranges must be used there

a 2001 BBC article reported that in Switzerland "the gun crime rate is so low that statistics are not even kept."

Over the last 5 years they have averaged 18.4 gun homicides per year.

Maybe they treat patients who require psychiatric care and they do not glorify the lone gunman who wants notoriety.

[M' Ave 1,466]

^^^^

I don't see how that applies. Okay, all members of the military can own weapons while serving and retired.

Switzerland is a poor comparison.

[Bnechis 3,961]

^^^^

I don't see how that applies. Okay, all members of the military can own weapons while serving and retired.

Switzerland is a poor comparison.

Yes and since all males are mandated to be military so almost every home in the entire country has an assault weapon. And only 1 mass shooting in the last 50 years.

Ok then look at Australia. They went thru massive gun control during the last decade and gun crimes have sky rocketed.

More guns per capita in Canada than the US, but less crime.

What about comparing states: The states with the least gun regulations have the most guns per capita and the lowest crime, so how can it be guns?

Can you explain how gun manufacturing & ownership has gone up over the last 35 years, while gun crimes have dropped significantly, How can this be?

Note: I got the numbers from the ATF & FBI annual reports.

[Dinosaur 844]

Sure there could be additional bad guys outside or IED's or whatever. And if there is that level of planning by the bad guys, they know what they are doing and people will surely die.

But in all the school shootings to date, it has been one or two nut jobs with weapons and ammo and a 1/2 assed plan. No real tactical planning. "Go there, shoot people and I will off myself when the LEOs get close. Hardly a well thought out tactical plan designed for mass killings.

All schools and locations are different. The evacuate plan would work well for my schools. Not so much for others perhaps.

As for supervision when getting out, like I said, I'd rather look for live kids hiding in the bushes for hours than counting the dead bodies stacked up like cordwood in a few minutes. Bottom line, even if kids get lost, eventually they will be found.

For a well trained group of bad guys with some brains, it's not hard to inflict mass casualties easily. Luckily, all the ones so far have been dumb nut jobs.

But the schools like it with easy accountability, dead or alive.

Happily you're not a school administrator. You can't accept "looking for kids in the bushes" after an incident as accountability for children. The law is clear about the school district being responsible for them during school hours.

There may be scenarios where evacuation is the answer but that is not going to simply replace sheltering in place. If this device adds a barrier between the shooter and potential victims it's a pretty good investment.

[Dinosaur 844]

The numbers don't lie. Countries with stricter gun laws or little gun culture have far fewer mass casualty incidents and this incidents result in fewer deaths.

Maybe they have better mental health programs and less reality TV shows?

[38ff 250]

No, I am not a school administrator. I'm a father of 2 school aged kids where the school policy is shelter in place. After talking to lots of LEO and NYSP MRT guys that I deal with at my job, they all say the right answer is to LEAVE. But the party line answer (and school policy) is shelter in place because it is "easy". It does makes counting up the carnage easier, I must admit. The school is also responsible to keeping my kids safe when they are there too. The school policy makes them unsafe if the unthinkable happens.

[antiquefirelt 994]

It's nearly impossible to compare us to any other country in the world. Our citizens and literally anyone standing on our soil, have far greater freedoms than 99% of the rest of the world. We appear to have a significant portion of our population who have far less regard for human life than most industrialized countries in the world.

This is a human problem that many would like to regulate by removing the tools used. One, it's not changing the root issue, the people and two in reality in this country total disarmament is far from any reality, which leaves us where. We can help secure our schools and better prepare for these issue, we cannot stop them or predict them at this point and we won't be able to, until we start addressing the mental health issues.

[antiquefirelt 994]

No, I am not a school administrator. I'm a father of 2 school aged kids where the school policy is shelter in place. After talking to lots of LEO and NYSP MRT guys that I deal with at my job, they all say the right answer is to LEAVE. But the party line answer (and school policy) is shelter in place because it is "easy". It does makes counting up the carnage easier, I must admit. The school is also responsible to keeping my kids safe when they are there too. The school policy makes them unsafe if the unthinkable happens.

So what do you do as a parent of a student whose classroom is above the ground floor? Demand new one story schools? How about a reality check, they have to have policies that meet the broad spectrum of the education system as a whole. If you kids teacher can get them out the window, maybe they do that and take the rip should they violate some policy when faced with an actual shooter in their school?

[Dinosaur 844]

No, I am not a school administrator. I'm a father of 2 school aged kids where the school policy is shelter in place. After talking to lots of LEO and NYSP MRT guys that I deal with at my job, they all say the right answer is to LEAVE. But the party line answer (and school policy) is shelter in place because it is "easy". It does makes counting up the carnage easier, I must admit. The school is also responsible to keeping my kids safe when they are there too. The school policy makes them unsafe if the unthinkable happens.

I must respectfully disagree. The SWAT guys you are talking about are knowledgeable about tactics for sure but they're neither school administrators or emergency planners. There's a time and a place to evacuate and a time and a place to shelter. Neither is 100% right or 100% wrong. Sheltering in place isn't just "easy". Very often it is the best plan. Are there times that evacuation would work? Sure but you have to weigh the totality of the circumstances not simply go with your gut or emotion.

Schools don't make our kids unsafe. They do the best they can with what they've got. How many schools still don't have SRO's?

[velcroMedic1987 330]

How did we get on a gun rights tangent?