If you put the fire out there's no reason to jump out of windows

[FFPCogs 863]

Good short and to the point article that reinforces the words of the late Andrew Fredericks:

"If you put the fire out there's no reason to jump out of windows"

http://community.fireengineering.com/profiles/blog/show?id=1219672:BlogPost:596767

Edited June 5, 2014 by FFPCogs

[antiquefirelt 994]

Good short and to the point article that reinforces the words of the late Andrew Fredericks:

"If you put the fire out there's no reason to jump out of windows"

http://community.fireengineering.com/profiles/blog/show?id=1219672:BlogPost:596767

Many excellent points in David Rhodes blog. This is well worth the time to review his short messages. Thanks Cogs.

[everybodygoes 331]

What should be taught to everyone regardless of experience is the need for something to be done. Not meaning do something if you are just standing there, but make sure everything that should be done is being completed.

Adequate line like this story exposed.

Adequate egress.

Adequate manpower for relief.

Adequate monitoring of members levels of exhaustion.

I still to this day can not figure out some things that are different between fighting a fire at work and fighting one for free (volunteer). Always a difference even though the only thing you need is water. Ill ask a main pet peeve in another thread now that I think about it.

[FirNaTine 370]

I always wonder if we really took a look at FF injuries and LODs how many of them could have been prevented by changing our strategy/tactics or just following the basics. Too many times it seems like everyone is ready to cast blame on others and finger point but in reality it's ourselves I believe and our so called "Brother" ffs who are to blame because many of us have become too complacent and lazy and just don't give a rats ass about our Profession and expanding our knowledge of it. God forbid one does too cause then you'll be labeled a "Geeper" or "Buff" and God knows we can't have that!!!

Edited June 5, 2014 by FirNaTine

[Bottom of Da Hill 76]

Good short and to the point article that reinforces the words of the late Andrew Fredericks:

"If you put the fire out there's no reason to jump out of windows"

http://community.fireengineering.com/profiles/blog/show?id=1219672:BlogPost:596767

what great guy andy fredericks thats so true.

[Bottom of Da Hill 76]

my pet peeve is always bring a charged hose line into a fire for your safety.you can keep the fire away from you,alot of guys that do get hurt are ladder or rescue guys,just my thoughts.

[everybodygoes 331]

Firefighter deaths can be reduced by looking at what is going wrong. A few years ago they instituted at work stating duration of fire. It helps dramatically in making the decision on if you need to vacate the premises. These are things that need to be done universally though, a standard needs to be set for what needs to be done, and how long it should take to do it.

[firecapt32 282]

every one--all firefighters should take the "Courage to be safe" program.

there are over 80,000 "REPORTED" injuries every year in the fire service... how many do not get reported?? firefighter deaths except for last year are down--not down enough but down.

what about injuries how do we stop them or at least curtail them??

[FFPCogs 863]

Firefighter deaths can be reduced by looking at what is going wrong. A few years ago they instituted at work stating duration of fire. It helps dramatically in making the decision on if you need to vacate the premises. These are things that need to be done universally though, a standard needs to be set for what needs to be done, and how long it should take to do it.

I agree that we must constantly look at ourselves to see what is going wrong...or maybe it's better put to say, look at what we can do better. I think that is the point of Mr. Rhodes' blog. I happen to agree with him that in some cases we are emphasizing the bail out/self rescue aspects of our job over honing and perfecting the most basic of fireground evolutions....stretching the line. No matter what every working fire gets a line stretched and it is the first line that makes or breaks the fire. Fact is, more lives are saved, including more FFs lives, by proper and timely hose selection and placement than by any other means, so shouldn't the skills necessary to get the right amount of the right hose to the right place be practiced accordingly? I believe they should and I also believe that this is not always the case.

Now that's not to say self survival training isn't important, God knows it is and it should be practiced regularly...there are a good number of FFs walking around today that prove that...but that training should be balanced with constant training to ensure that every aspect of the most basic and necessary evolution that we do at every fire is done well at every fire. I think it's a safe to say that some, maybe many, FDs have let the basic skills of hose work slip because of the fact that they are basic skills and it's assumed everyone is well versed at performing them. The truth is that's not always the case and I would bet my last dollar that every FD has had cases that prove that point (i.e. short stretches, wrong sized line, line in the wrong place, not enough manpower dedicated to placing the line...I think you get the idea).

Maybe instead relying on standards, or spending hour after hour learning how to "save ourselves" we could put some of that time to better use learning how to not get ourselves in a position to need those techniques in the first place. And the most basic and simplest way to do that (and save the most lives) is to be masters of hose work.

As Mr. Fredericks so eloquently put it "If you put the fire out there's no reason to jump out of windows."

Edited June 6, 2014 by FFPCogs

[FirNaTine 370]

And let's not forget to actually be able to quickly charge the line. You could have the manpower and speed to properly select and position the proper size hoseline but if your MPO is clueless and incapable of doing his Job, then it's all for naut!

[FDNY 10-75 640]

Great read.

While we're talking about Andy, why are companies still using combination nozzles for structural firefighting? The facts are all there about solid stream nozzles but I almost think some places refuse to believe they are superior or they're in complete denial. You see departments purchasing the 'latest' TFTs or Akron Brass combination nozzles because they have this gizmo or that. Sure, they have their place but not for our bread and butter structural fires. I believe that most of these newer fog nozzles are nothing more than a way to make a buck off an (almost) obsolete product.

[TimesUp 148]

And let's not forget to actually be able to quickly charge the line. You could have the manpower and speed to properly select and position the proper size hoseline but if your MPO is clueless and incapable of doing his Job, then it's all for naut!

There is more to being a good MPO also. But being able to get water is a good start. Main size, identifying a un primed pump etc.......Hands out to sides palms up and a shoulder shrug is one of the scariest things to see at a fire

Edited June 6, 2014 by ltrob

[antiquefirelt 994]

While we're talking about Andy, why are companies still using combination nozzles for structural firefighting? The facts are all there about solid stream nozzles but I almost think some places refuse to believe they are superior or they're in complete denial. You see departments purchasing the 'latest' TFTs or Akron Brass combination nozzles because they have this gizmo or that. Sure, they have their place but not for our bread and butter structural fires. I believe that most of these newer fog nozzles are nothing more than a way to make a buck off an (almost) obsolete product.

While I personally favor the smoothbore, I have found that some combination nozzle proponents have fairly strong evidence to support their use in structural firefighting as well. When properly adjusted all the way to the right (right is right, left for lobster) the straight stream when flowed at the same gpm easily matches the reach and penetration in most interior fires. Many very experienced FD's use combo nozzles every day quite successfully. Our guys are split between using the Vindicator or the 15/16" tip, with the fog nozzles rarely stretched. With proper training (it took many years to erase the 30 degree fog lessons) the combination nozzle when flowed at adequate gpm work just fine. I'm not sure I'd select one when operating off a standpipe but, still many do, the key as always is proper application and use. I can say I doubt we'll ever buy another 100psi combo tip, but a 75 psi fog likely has a place on a well appointed engine.

As for TFT's and many of the other new gimmicks, I'd agree their just new ways to liberate dollars from unsuspecting customers.

[houlidsa 76]

They are not unsuspecting, they are uneducated, ignorant, or lazy. The other thing is most of the stuff is not a gimmick its designed for a specific scope or practice which was over stepped or misunderstood by a FD. The big problem is guys don't look to solve their own problems they think there is a magic bullet in one nozzle that will make fires instantly go out.

The nozzle is only one component of many in putting a fire out.

Remember putting the fire out starts with you!

[FirNaTine 370]

There is more to being a good MPO also. But being able to get water is a good start. Main size, identifying a un primed pump etc.......Hands out to sides palms up and a shoulder shrug is one of the scariest things to see at a fire

Absolutely! How about adding to this just knowing your 1st due territory as in streets, standpiped bldgs., dead end hydrants, obscured hydrants, no hydrants at all, etc.etc.. Another thing too is many places seem to assign positions on apparatus by "Seniority" and not "Ability!"

[robert benz 344]

And let's not forget to actually be able to quickly charge the line. You could have the manpower and speed to properly select and position the proper size hoseline but if your MPO is clueless and incapable of doing his Job, then it's all for naut!

isn't that a training issue?

[dwcfireman 656]

Great read.

While we're talking about Andy, why are companies still using combination nozzles for structural firefighting? The facts are all there about solid stream nozzles but I almost think some places refuse to believe they are superior or they're in complete denial. You see departments purchasing the 'latest' TFTs or Akron Brass combination nozzles because they have this gizmo or that. Sure, they have their place but not for our bread and butter structural fires. I believe that most of these newer fog nozzles are nothing more than a way to make a buck off an (almost) obsolete product.

I prefer the combination nozzle for smaler or lighter fires, such as room-and-contents or a structure fire in its early stages. I've found using the smooth bore on larger, hotter fires a bit more advantageous as you can et a few extra gpm's over a TFT.

[antiquefirelt 994]

I prefer the combination nozzle for smaler or lighter fires, such as room-and-contents or a structure fire in its early stages. I've found using the smooth bore on larger, hotter fires a bit more advantageous as you can et a few extra gpm's over a TFT.

I'm interested in what the combination offers that you prefer it for room and contents or "smaller" fires? While I don't think fog nozzles are necessarily inferior (with proper training and use), I'm genuinely interested in the decision-making process people use when selecting hose/nozzle combinations.

[FirNaTine 370]

isn't that a training issue?

You would think right? Can't always lead a horse to water though and make him drink if he doesn't want to. Some people are just not willing to learn and/or are incapable of it. I guess then it really becomes a hiring standard issue then and a piss poor interviewing process. JMO