School Districts dictating emergency services policy

[Jybehofd 85]

ITS THE RIGHT THING TO DO my parents made the rule with me when i was still in high school and a full active member at the firehouse. no late calls on a school night. the pager was off. i wish i did this when i was in college and a member of the ambulance corps there. my grades would have been better. Education is why you are there you are a better responder with knowing more. just like you can't respond when your in fire fighter 1 class.

[fireguy43 35]

One of the more ridiculous posts I've seen on here in a long time. Many others have beaten the horse to death- if you are relying on a bunch of high school kids for your first alarm assignment, you have big problems. I started back in the day as an 18 year old with 6 months of high school left to go. My department had no "junior" members and therefore no special rules. Small town, everyone knew me for many years, it was left to my discretion, my parents didn't put any limitations on me, and I graduated with high honors from high school. Fast forward 35+ years, I have my own son who is a 17 year old junior member where we live now. Just finishing FF1 this week. Given the chance, he'd be running on every call he could grab. I as his father have placed limitations on what he is allowed to respond to, and that generally means he goes to NOTHING on school nights once he goes toes up in bed (I still go, but without him). No one in previous posts has mentioned the parental element in this discussion. As a parent of a minor, I make the decisions for my son, not the fire district and not the school when it comes to this topic. He can make all the weekend calls he wants, but if I find out he left school for an alarm, or took his pager to school, that's the end of it.

[velcroMedic1987 330]

One of the more ridiculous posts I've seen on here in a long time. Many others have beaten the horse to death- if you are relying on a bunch of high school kids for your first alarm assignment, you have big problems. I started back in the day as an 18 year old with 6 months of high school left to go. My department had no "junior" members and therefore no special rules. Small town, everyone knew me for many years, it was left to my discretion, my parents didn't put any limitations on me, and I graduated with high honors from high school. Fast forward 35+ years, I have my own son who is a 17 year old junior member where we live now. Just finishing FF1 this week. Given the chance, he'd be running on every call he could grab. I as his father have placed limitations on what he is allowed to respond to, and that generally means he goes to NOTHING on school nights once he goes toes up in bed (I still go, but without him). No one in previous posts has mentioned the parental element in this discussion. As a parent of a minor, I make the decisions for my son, not the fire district and not the school when it comes to this topic. He can make all the weekend calls he wants, but if I find out he left school for an alarm, or took his pager to school, that's the end of it.

Yeah, you hit the nail on the head!

PARENTS! Not the school, not the FD, not the government.

Good for you!!!

[velcroMedic1987 330]

The more important issue that needs to be focused on is if these young adults want go on to a career in emergency services they are going to need a HS diploma with a decent GPA because most promotions now look for college credits. If they are looking in other directions and being a volunteer is just for the "volunteer" section of the college app then they still need to focus on that GPA. A side from that if they are content on practicing the line "do you want fries with that?" then by all mean stay out all night seven nights a week. What needs to be understood is these "unfair" rules are being "imposed" by a group of well seasoned adults that "have been there, done that" and trying to provide guidance that to a young mind can appear to be restriction.

Not just for promotions. Most civil service positions now require college credits at the ENTRY LEVEL. Getting a good job with nothing more than a HS diploma is fast becoming a thing of the past.

[thebreeze 194]

Not just for promotions. Most civil service positions now require college credits at the ENTRY LEVEL. Getting a good job with nothing more than a HS diploma is fast becoming a thing of the past.

Sadly that trend seems to be reversing in the name of fairness and "diversity". The FDNY used to require college credits as a condition of employment, that has since been reduced to 6 months of "work experience". Apparently the ability to learn and apply your knowledge isn't as important to municipalities as what ethnic group you hail from. Don't be surprised if you see more of these requirements disappearing as well as the lowering of standards and requirements for promotions all in the name of "diversity".

[thebreeze 194]

Yeah, you hit the nail on the head!

PARENTS! Not the school, not the FD, not the government.

Good for you!!!

I agree that the ultimate responsibility lies with the parents and that more parents should take a more active role in their children's lives. This does not mean, however, that the school system and the FD do not have a responsibility to the student. We entrust the schools with teaching and caring for our children, if we aren't educators ourselves I don't think we really have the right to second guess every one of their opinions on what is best for a student to function properly. Wouldn't you want the school to take an interest and say something if your child was falling asleep in school all the time? It shows that they are actually invested in the child's future, isn't that a good thing? As far as the FD, we often take members 16 or 17 years of age who still have a year or two of high school left, that schooling should be their main priority, it's going to serve them in whatever they do for the rest of their lives whether it be firefighting or not. 16 and 17 year old children shouldn't be the backbone of our firefighting service, in fact they shouldn't even be interior members. The immaturity, inexperience, and feeling of invincibility that all children have is something that needs to be monitored closely. I'm not saying that some of these kids won't go on to be great firemen, I'm saying that they need a proper education and careful mentoring from those above them in the fire service.

P.S. If anyone takes issue with me referring to 16 and 17 year olds as children, let me say first, I get it, I didn't want to be considered a child then either, it took years for me to realize what a jackass I actually was. Second I will paraphrase Kurt Vonnegut who once said that in this country boys and girls do not become men and women until they have either served in a war or graduated college and entered the real world.

[FireMedic049 597]

16 and 17 year old children shouldn't be the backbone of our firefighting service, in fact they shouldn't even be interior members.

I agree, however, if I'm not mistaken, child labor laws already prohibit them from being such.

[velcroMedic1987 330]

Sadly that trend seems to be reversing in the name of fairness and "diversity". The FDNY used to require college credits as a condition of employment, that has since been reduced to 6 months of "work experience". Apparently the ability to learn and apply your knowledge isn't as important to municipalities as what ethnic group you hail from. Don't be surprised if you see more of these requirements disappearing as well as the lowering of standards and requirements for promotions all in the name of "diversity".

Must be that they're trying to dumb down the FD cause the PD still requires it.

To become a New York City Police Officer, you must have 60 college credits (with a least a 2.0 GPA) from an accredited college or university. The only exception to this requirement is if you have completed two years active military service.

[FirNaTine 370]

Not just for promotions. Most civil service positions now require college credits at the ENTRY LEVEL. Getting a good job with nothing more than a HS diploma is fast becoming a thing of the past.

Depends on where your applying. Some places you don't need a HD or a GED. Not that I agree with it! I think it's ludicrous!

[velcroMedic1987 330]

Depends on where your applying. Some places you don't need a HD or a GED. Not that I agree with it! I think it's ludicrous!

Where would that be? Every civil service job I've ever seen in NYS required at least HS/GED.

[mvfire8989 22]

Where would that be? Every civil service job I've ever seen in NYS required at least HS/GED.

Mt Vernon says it isn't needed (in bold caps no less) http://cmvny.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/2013-Firefighter-Exam.pdf

[velcroMedic1987 330]

Mt Vernon says it isn't needed (in bold caps no less) http://cmvny.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/2013-Firefighter-Exam.pdf

I should have guessed. Wow, that's pretty sad.

[thebreeze 194]

Must be that they're trying to dumb down the FD cause the PD still requires it.

It has nothing to do with dumbing down, it has everything to do with "diversity", the PD is already more diverse or they would drop the requirement for them too I'm sure. It's funny though, they got rid of the FDNY college requirement to try to increase the number of minorities who passed, but how is that logical if a sufficient number of minorities are able to pass NYPDs supposedly higher level of college requirement? Could it be maybe they just don't want the job? No of course not, that's absurd. Ask the Vulcans why, if the NYPD is so diverse with a high college requirement, how does it make sense that lowering the FDNYs would produce the same result? If their president could even grasp the logic of that statement I think his bow tie might spin.

[SageVigiles 1,194]

The reason it legally isn't the responsibility of the parents is because they are 18/19. Yes you can play the "you live under my roof" card as a parent, but bottom line they can do what they want, including moving out of the house.

While school SHOULD be their first priority, I'm going to play Devil's Advocate for a minute. Its really the Member's decision, and I'm not quite sure how a fire department could set that kind of restriction on a certified employee who is of age.

Juniors are easy to regulate because OSHA (or PESH) should have regulations about minors and all that.

Just an important distinction I think.

[thebreeze 194]

The reason it legally isn't the responsibility of the parents is because they are 18/19. Yes you can play the "you live under my roof" card as a parent, but bottom line they can do what they want, including moving out of the house.

While school SHOULD be their first priority, I'm going to play Devil's Advocate for a minute. Its really the Member's decision, and I'm not quite sure how a fire department could set that kind of restriction on a certified employee who is of age.

Juniors are easy to regulate because OSHA (or PESH) should have regulations about minors and all that.

Just an important distinction I think.

They can do it very simply, either by the department having it in it's by laws or the district establishing a rule. Just because someone isn't technically a minor doesn't mean they have the best decision making abilities, it's the senior members and officers job to help them make the right decision and then to help them understand why it's the right thing to do.

[PEMO3 523]

The reason it legally isn't the responsibility of the parents is because they are 18/19. Yes you can play the "you live under my roof" card as a parent, but bottom line they can do what they want, including moving out of the house.

You are correct but as my father would have said "Don't let the door hit you in the a-- on the way out". While a parent's legal responsibility may have expired there is still a moral obligation to that child that you invested 18 plus years of your life in. That is the problem with this world, too many people looking for the extent of their legal obligations and the loss of moral vision (and no SageVigilies that is not directed at you)

[JackEMT 77]

Does NYS still have the Jr License in which a minor is not allowed to operate a motor vehicle during certain hours (with some exceptions)?

It is ultimately the parents job to raise their child, instill on them the values and priorities of life. Education should be near the top. But organizations and employers should not foster an environment that challenges them. What 17 or 18 year kid would turn down a confirmed fire or a PIAA with extrication over a couple hours sleep? I know I won't turn it down and didn't turn it down.

I assume departments with Jr members require consent forms. How often do they need to be re-signed?

[FFEMT150 214]

Does NYS still have the Jr License in which a minor is not allowed to operate a motor vehicle during certain hours (with some exceptions)?

It is ultimately the parents job to raise their child, instill on them the values and priorities of life. Education should be near the top. But organizations and employers should not foster an environment that challenges them. What 17 or 18 year kid would turn down a confirmed fire or a PIAA with extrication over a couple hours sleep? I know I won't turn it down and didn't turn it down.

I assume departments with Jr members require consent forms. How often do they need to be re-signed?

Yes. NY had class DJ for operators under 18.

[FireMedic049 597]

I assume departments with Jr members require consent forms. How often do they need to be re-signed?

The issue being discussed is not about junior firefighters, but rather members that are 18 or older and still in high school.

Child labor laws already restrict the "work hours" of juniors by statute. The issue being discussed is the organizational authority and appropriateness of restricting the response of members no longer restricted by the child labor laws, but still attending high school.