School Districts dictating emergency services policy

[v85 212]

Our local fire department recently implemented a policy that ANY firefighter still in high school, even if they are 18 or 19, can not take any calls after 10 on a school night. Personally, I have a big problem with this, because we have a lot of 18 and 19 year old OSHA/FFI interior qualified firefighters, and such policy would significantly reduce the number of firefighters available for night calls.

Should school districts have the ability to essentially say that having people well rested for school is more important than public safety/firefighter safety?

Personally, I think schools have way to much power. Read the news about schools strip-searching students on questionable grounds, getting 7 year olds arrested for having scissors in their backpack, holding graduations on weeknights to "prevent underage drinking" even though as soon as the students graduate and are out for the summer the school has NO AUTHORITY over them and it should be a SOLELY police matter.

[10512 214]

Our local fire department recently implemented a policy that ANY firefighter still in high school, even if they are 18 or 19, can not take any calls after 10 on a school night. Personally, I have a big problem with this, because we have a lot of 18 and 19 year old OSHA/FFI interior qualified firefighters, and such policy would significantly reduce the number of firefighters available for night calls.

Should school districts have the ability to essentially say that having people well rested for school is more important than public safety/firefighter safety?

Personally, I think schools have way to much power. Read the news about schools strip-searching students on questionable grounds, getting 7 year olds arrested for having scissors in their backpack, holding graduations on weeknights to "prevent underage drinking" even though as soon as the students graduate and are out for the summer the school has NO AUTHORITY over them and it should be a SOLELY police matter.

According to the way your post reads, the local Fire Department implemented the policy, not the school.

Edited April 27, 2014 by 10512

[v85 212]

Yes, the FD did implement the policy, but why did they do it? I know in the junior application it states "they work closely with the school district" and I don't think an FD would cut down their resources on their own, without being suggested to do so by some outside authority

[FFEMT150 214]

Yes, the FD did implement the policy, but why did they do it? I know in the junior application it states "they work closely with the school district" and I don't think an FD would cut down their resources on their own, without being suggested to do so by some outside authority

I think that before you take to the keyboard you should get the facts. You make quite a serious allegation of your department being influenced by an outside source, do you know this to be true? Question these types of things in house before going to the all mighty internet.

Now as far as the policy, good job! They are kids in school. Schooling is required for a job, a job is required to feed a family. I don't think my volunteer department had ever bought dinner for my kids.

[10512 214]

Yes, the FD did implement the policy, but why did they do it?

Did you ask them why?

The FD instituted the policy, not the school.

Why are you assuming the school is behind it?

Edited April 27, 2014 by 10512

[SteveC7010 58]

Yes, the FD did implement the policy, but why did they do it? I know in the junior application it states "they work closely with the school district" and I don't think an FD would cut down their resources on their own, without being suggested to do so by some outside authority

School rules before FD rules for students who have yet to graduate from high school.

If the FD is that dependent on FF's who are still in high school, then the FD bears responsibility to find itself some qualified people who are beyond high school. The school is not cutting into the FD's resources; the FD placed too many eggs in one basket.

[M' Ave 1,466]

Kids in High school belong in bed well rested for the school day. They don't need the added stress of responding to emergencies, nor do they need the distraction. If your dept. relies on 18 year olds in school, then they're in trouble.....

[voltage1256 42]

Interesting... when I was a senior in High School... 18YO and FF-I... our neighboring department had a 4 alarm fire we relocated to.. My principal asked me what I was still doing in class and not heading to the FD LOL! It's a fine line... where the battle is never really won as you become "that guy" who picks and chooses his calls.. School comes first as it leads us to our careers and is our education, so yes sleeping through the night and missing the commercial alarm happens.. as for fires or serious incidents.. I never could justify loss of life over being tired once in math class.. neither could my teachers... just my two cents.

[Dinosaur 844]

Interesting... when I was a senior in High School... 18YO and FF-I... our neighboring department had a 4 alarm fire we relocated to.. My principal asked me what I was still doing in class and not heading to the FD LOL! It's a fine line... where the battle is never really won as you become "that guy" who picks and chooses his calls.. School comes first as it leads us to our careers and is our education, so yes sleeping through the night and missing the commercial alarm happens.. as for fires or serious incidents.. I never could justify loss of life over being tired once in math class.. neither could my teachers... just my two cents.

If high school students are the difference between life and death in your department, there are problems well beyond the topic at hand. Bottom line is students are students and that should be there priority.

What happens if you sleep through the automatic alarm that turns out to be the serious fire? The job is the job, regardless of dispatch information.

[MoFire390 118]

2 problems I have with this. 1: as a student athlete I NEVER had a good nights sleep. Especially when I had homework on the weekends or week nights. There was nights where I was in bed by 1am.

2: should work with the school and make rules. If your department tones out more then 2x for the same call then the students should be able to go and be excused with a note from the chief with a call number and to ask the chief if the student was on the call.

Final food for thought, you as a department can not mess with someone's service award points. It's against the law!!!

[FFEMT150 214]

2 problems I have with this. 1: as a student athlete I NEVER had a good nights sleep. Especially when I had homework on the weekends or week nights. There was nights where I was in bed by 1am.

2: should work with the school and make rules. If your department tones out more then 2x for the same call then the students should be able to go and be excused with a note from the chief with a call number and to ask the chief if the student was on the call.

Final food for thought, you as a department can not mess with someone's service award points. It's against the law!!!

If a department cannot "mess" with a persons service award points, how do you explain disciplinary suspension?

[Morningjoe 162]

Our local fire department recently implemented a policy that ANY firefighter still in high school, even if they are 18 or 19, can not take any calls after 10 on a school night. Personally, I have a big problem with this, because we have a lot of 18 and 19 year old OSHA/FFI interior qualified firefighters, and such policy would significantly reduce the number of firefighters available for night calls.

Should school districts have the ability to essentially say that having people well rested for school is more important than public safety/firefighter safety?

Personally, I think schools have way to much power. Read the news about schools strip-searching students on questionable grounds, getting 7 year olds arrested for having scissors in their backpack, holding graduations on weeknights to "prevent underage drinking" even though as soon as the students graduate and are out for the summer the school has NO AUTHORITY over them and it should be a SOLELY police matter.

The solution has been stated here multiple times now, and I feel like you're not getting the answer you're looking for.

There is a much bigger issue going on in your department then having the policy put into place. It stems from the irresponsible nature of your department allowing itself to, from your words, rely fully on 18 year old (EightTEEN) students in high school to supply your town with emergency services.

2: should work with the school and make rules. If your department tones out more then 2x for the same call then the students should be able to go and be excused with a note from the chief with a call number and to ask the chief if the student was on the call.

Final food for thought, you as a department can not mess with someone's service award points. It's against the law!!!

If your department (FD or EMS) cannot get a well staffed rig with well qualified individuals on the road after the first page, then you should be thinking about career staffing, or other means to supply emergency services to the people who have entrusted you with their lives. Paging out 2-3-4 times is ludicrous, and endangers the entire community; plus it makes you look/sound like a a bunch of yahoos morons who cant get a rig out to your surrounding fire departments. There should be a 1 page, 4 minute rule, period. Can't get out? K, the next closet department is getting dispatched.

Edited April 27, 2014 by Morningjoe

[SteveC7010 58]

Final food for thought, you as a department can not mess with someone's service award points. It's against the law!!!

If there is a New York State law regarding this, please provide verifiable section, etc. I am not familiar with any law like this and I'm sure that others may be wondering, too.

[FireMedic049 597]

Our local fire department recently implemented a policy that ANY firefighter still in high school, even if they are 18 or 19, can not take any calls after 10 on a school night. Personally, I have a big problem with this, because we have a lot of 18 and 19 year old OSHA/FFI interior qualified firefighters, and such policy would significantly reduce the number of firefighters available for night calls.

As others have stated, your department has a serious problem if you are relying on 18 and 19 year old kids still in HS to get apparatus on the road.

But something that other haven't touched on......

Maybe things have changed since I was in HS, after all it has been almost 26 years, but it was not common for there to be students that were 19 and still in school. If you were 19 and still in HS, it meant that you had to repeat a grade somewhere along the way. If you repeated a grade, it was almost always due to failing to perform in an adequate fashion academically.

I would think that a person who has had prior (or current) academic problems needs to be reporting for school well rested more than they need to run calls during the night.

Should school districts have the ability to essentially say that having people well rested for school is more important than public safety/firefighter safety?

Yes, they should have that ability to express their opinion. Are you unfamiliar with 1st amendment rights of the US Constitution? Should they have the right to dictate policy of non-affiliated organizations? No.

[FireMedic049 597]

2 problems I have with this. 1: as a student athlete I NEVER had a good nights sleep. Especially when I had homework on the weekends or week nights. There was nights where I was in bed by 1am.

I was a student athlete also and had homework most nights too, but I still managed to get to bed at a reasonable hour and get a decent nights sleep most of the time. What were you doing that kept you up until 1am?

[50-65 205]

Our department has had such a policy for many years. In addition to the hours junior members are allowed at the firehouse, they are also prohibited from responding to calls outside the district, have to meet academic requirements, and their membership is subject to parental consent until they graduate or are otherwise considered to be emancipated.

Although I am not positive, the hours on school nights may be due to child labor laws.

[99subi 121]

Its sad that in the year 2014 some emergency services in the United States still depend on teenagers in high school......

Edited April 28, 2014 by 99subi

[FireMedic049 597]

Our department has had such a policy for many years. In addition to the hours junior members are allowed at the firehouse, they are also prohibited from responding to calls outside the district, have to meet academic requirements, and their membership is subject to parental consent until they graduate or are otherwise considered to be emancipated.

Although I am not positive, the hours on school nights may be due to child labor laws.

Child labor laws restrict the hours in which a Junior FF may respond to calls. They are limited to the same hours that they'd be able to work at a regular job. If I recall correctly, they are not required to leave the scene if the incident extends beyond the daily cut off point, but they can't take in any additional calls.

[v85 212]

I didn't said the department "relies" on 18 and 19 year old firefighters to get rigs on the road; but if the choice is getting 10 firefighters out and having to call 3 departments for mutual aid or getting 17 firefighters and only needing one mutual aid department. I would take the most firefighters I can get from my own agency

[ex-commish 490]

Regardless of who dictated the policy I agree with it...school is first.

[FirNaTine 370]

There's 18 and 19 yr olds fighting for our freedom and getting no sleep. Get your asses out of bed and go help your Community no matter what the time! s*** I did it which was once and a blue moon and still kept my grades up. Where the hell are these kids Volunteering Bed Stuy and Crown Heights for God's sake? Suck it up!

[somebuffyguy 190]

That is true, but 18 year olds in the military have to finish high school before they can serve. Also being in the military is a career, volunteer FD is not. While they are making a great sacrifice, it also helps them put their lives in order. Trying to balance finishing high school with a VFD can be very distracting, and I don't see how anyone these days cannot agree education should come first. I can't speak for all volunteer departments, but I'd have to say from what I've seen more departments suffer from their older members saying "well I have work in the morning, can't go." rather than their high schoolers not showing up.

[velcroMedic1987 330]

There's 18 and 19 yr olds fighting for our freedom and getting no sleep. Get your asses out of bed and go help your Community no matter what the time! s*** I did it which was once and a blue moon and still kept my grades up. Where the hell are these kids Volunteering Bed Stuy and Crown Heights for God's sake? Suck it up!

Please don't compare serving in the military with being a volunteer FF. There is no comparison at all.

[voltage1256 42]

If high school students are the difference between life and death in your department, there are problems well beyond the topic at hand.

At no point did I make that statement, was just adding to the conversation...

[10512 214]

I didn't said the department "relies" on 18 and 19 year old firefighters to get rigs on the road; but if the choice is getting 10 firefighters out and having to call 3 departments for mutual aid or getting 17 firefighters and only needing one mutual aid department. I would take the most firefighters I can get from my own agency

I am posting only one more comment and then I am done with this topic.

If 7 out of the 17 FF's you are referring to as responding are High School students, then your department is in big trouble.

I am not knocking HS age FF's, that's when I got my start.

Edited April 28, 2014 by 10512

[PEMO3 523]

The more important issue that needs to be focused on is if these young adults want go on to a career in emergency services they are going to need a HS diploma with a decent GPA because most promotions now look for college credits. If they are looking in other directions and being a volunteer is just for the "volunteer" section of the college app then they still need to focus on that GPA. A side from that if they are content on practicing the line "do you want fries with that?" then by all mean stay out all night seven nights a week. What needs to be understood is these "unfair" rules are being "imposed" by a group of well seasoned adults that "have been there, done that" and trying to provide guidance that to a young mind can appear to be restriction.

[FireMedic049 597]

There's 18 and 19 yr olds fighting for our freedom and getting no sleep. Get your asses out of bed and go help your Community no matter what the time! s*** I did it which was once and a blue moon and still kept my grades up. Where the hell are these kids Volunteering Bed Stuy and Crown Heights for God's sake? Suck it up!

You should go back to the start of the thread and reread everything (assuming you read any of it in the first place).

First, the 18 and 19 year olds serving in the military already have their HS diploma or GED, these kids DO NOT!

Second, the issue being raised isn't that these kids aren't willing to get their "asses out of bed" to help the community. The OP has a problem with a very reasonable and appropriate department policy that prevents them from responding to calls after 10pm on school nights.

[v85 212]

Is it reasonable if it is a contributing factor to a house burning down? or someone dying?

Is it ideal that a fire department consists of a lot of 18 and 19 year olds in high school. OF COURSE NOT. But, we all know this isn't a perfect world by any stretch of the imagination (see: Donald Sterling LA Clippers)

[FireMedic049 597]

Is it reasonable if it is a contributing factor to a house burning down? or someone dying?

Would it really be that much of a contributing factor? Would it be more of a factor than a delayed reporting of the fire that often occurs during the overnight hours that give the fire a good head start? Would it be more of a factor than the delayed reporting that leads to the FD arriving at a point where the fire has progressed to the point that victims are beyond help?

Would it be more of a contributing factor than when these kids are actually in classes during the day and unable to respond? Would it be more of a contributing factor than when other members are at work and unable to respond?

Would it be more of a contributing factor than the FD failing to have additional resources dispatched knowing that they might run short on manpower? In my area, it's not uncommon for departments to have a heavy 1st alarm during weekday daytime because they know manpower is not readily available like at night or on weekends.

Is it ideal that a fire department consists of a lot of 18 and 19 year olds in high school. OF COURSE NOT. But, we all know this isn't a perfect world by any stretch of the imagination (see: Donald Sterling LA Clippers)

I'm well aware that it's not a perfect world. If it were, then I wouldn't be routinely working on a 2-man engine company and responding to fires (some days) with a total on-duty strength of 5. (Note: We supplement that with the response of off-duty personnel and mutual aid once a working fire is confirmed.)

We've been able to put out a lot of fires with limited personnel over the years. Most residential jobs are under control before the cavalry arrives. One contributing factor to that is that we are all capable of doing whatever task is needed on the fire ground. We can accomplish a lot with 10 of our FFs on the fire ground. Comparatively, how much of a contributing factor is the unavailability of these kids on a school night (or other points in the day) vs not all of the 10 other members responding overnight to individually be able to perform whatever task is needed?

[signal30 22]

If they're still in High School, that should be their priority. EVERYTHING comes second to them completing their education (figuring out those pesky pump calculations is much more difficult without simple Math)-- yea, I'm stretching that reasoning a little bit, but I think we see the point.

I think the department should be commended for this!!! The higher ups seem to be leading this young, impressionable minions along the correct path. This path means that there are bigger things than coming down for "big one" (let's face it, we've all missed the "big one" at one point or another).

I don't think you see it right now, but I hope you will, but it seems like this department is saying "I want your help, I need your help, but I don't need it THAT much, you do what you need to do, and that means finish school, we've got this"

Kudos!