Opinion: San Francisco’s Next Fire Truck Fleet Needs to Be More Versatile

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Interesting opinion piece.

While SFFD has protested wider sidewalks, officials haven’t targeted much more prevalent obstacles like double-parked cars, and they admit they don’t have a firm grasp on what’s causing recent increases in response times. SFFD Assistant Deputy Chief Ken Lombardi said at a hearing in January that “there could just be more cars.”

“While I and others have disputed [sFFD's] assertions,” said Wiener, “if the department is concerned, the solution is to take a hard look at truck design.”
Smaller trucks, better designed for tight spaces than most of SFFD’s current fleet, are in use by a station in Bernal Heights, and they’re commonly seen in older cities in Europe and Japan.

But SFFD has made several excuses about why it can’t buy more of them. At the January hearing, Lombardi said that fewer American manufacturers are
producing smaller fire trucks, that smaller trucks tend not to meet smog standards, and that powerful engines are needed to climb San Francisco’s steep hills.

Regardless, the actual size of fire trucks isn’t necessarily as important as smart design features that allow them to operate within a smaller space, said Patrick Siegman, a principal at the transportation planning firm Nelson/Nygaard who focuses on emergency vehicle issues. Most of SFFD’s current trucks lack features like a tighter turning radius, roll-up cabinet doors on the sides of trucks (they have doors that swing out), hose pumps on the rear instead of the sides, and “stabilizers” to keep ladders propped up that don’t protrude out as much, he said.

According to the SF Examiner, about 10 percent of SFFD’s 300 vehicles have been in service for longer than their recommended functional service life of 15 years, and the department would need $28.1 million to replace the 18 trucks, 31 engines, and 20 ambulances it wants to get rid of.

Article: http://sf.streetsblog.org/2014/04/21/scott-wiener-sffds-next-fire-truck-fleet-needs-to-be-more-versatile/

[16fire5 693]

They already have tillers so I'm not really sure how much better they can get. This stupid discussion comes up from time to time when a know it all planner or developer is sick of the fire department's comments. If the Fire Department was commenting on street width they were doing their job. I've been on both sides of this and have never debated the fire chief or marshals input. In fact at times I've helped them out.

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I like this comment:

Siegman noted that Anaheim’s fire department recently bought trucks with hose pumps on the rear, and noted that several European fire truck manufacturers known for making vehicles friendly for narrow streets, including one called Rosenbauer, recently started selling their vehicles in the U.S.

Rosenbauer has been in the US for several years now, and despite being a worldwide company, is just another sole-source apparatus builder in the USA.

And they do use roll up compartment doors.

Here's one of their latest deliveries, from Spartan ERV: http://www.spartanerv.com/delivery.aspx?id=50652

[firebuff88 4]

I like this comment:

Rosenbauer has been in the US for several years now, and despite being a worldwide company, is just another sole-source apparatus builder in the USA.

And they do use roll up compartment doors.

Here's one of their latest deliveries, from Spartan ERV: http://www.spartanerv.com/delivery.aspx?id=50652

I'm not sure what they mean by hose pump on the rear. Maybe they meant rear mounted pump?

As for the Anaheim FD, they just got a new Pierce 75' Quint. Still a side mounted pump.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/piercemfg/11193344814/in/photolist-

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BNechis knows a lot more about the apparatus configured to operate on tight centuries-old streets in Europe....hopefully he can explain better.

[Bnechis 3,961]

BNechis knows a lot more about the apparatus configured to operate on tight centuries-old streets in Europe....hopefully he can explain better.

Thanks.

Now before you look at Europe, one must consider a number of San Francisco issues 1st. The Hills, the construction (Very high number of wood frame, compared to most major cities). And very windy (being on a peninsula that has one of the windiest bays in the world on one side and the Pacific Ocean on the other. Then look at the history of burning 1/2 the city down after an earthquake, and the next one could happen any day.

Week before the Loma Prieta Earthquake in 1989 the City of SF determined that a fire boat was too expensive to have and they could sell the "Phoenix". SFFD said it was critical, but the administration knew better. When the quake occurred all water mains in the marina district were cut. The fire boat became the only water source and prevented a conflagration. Shortly after that, the city purchased a 2nd boat (used) from Vancouver Canada.

So even if this sounds like a good idea. It can change to a very bad one in 30 seconds. SF is a city that needs big pump capacity and powerful rigs to get up and over those hills.

I got to ride with SFFD Rescue 2 & Ride on the Phoenix in the early 1990's. It was like being on a roller coaster in the back going up and over those hills.

Part II - Europe (tomorrow).

[Bnechis 3,961]

Western Europe has a very different approach to fire than North America. 1st they do not use wood to build with, they do not have trees to waste on homes. That's why they came to America in the 1600-1700....for our forests. In France I was surprised to see the telephone poles are concrete. The construction methods also tend to have less void spaces. I was surprise seeing external plumbing on the rear of most homes. So their fires are basically content only and need much less fire flow to handle.

Another difference is the difference in our freedoms. In the US the government (fire dept) can not come into my home and inspect it, so if I am unsafe, that's my right. And where are most of our fires? Private dwellings. But in many countries in Europe they inspect private homes, because the community safety is more important than personnel freedoms. Another difference is having a fire is considered a shame on your family.

Another issue is most major US cities are along a coast (ocean or great lake), many in Europe are along rivers, inland from the coast (Paris, London, Berlin, etc.) so less winds.

Another difference is water supply. The hydrant systems in many European city's could not support the LDH or large pumps of ours. The systems there are designed for faster hook up for content fires. In Paris for example the water mains are 6 inch and run under the sidewalks. The hydrants are carried by the pumps (engines) every 100' their is an access plate. you kick it with your heal it pops open, you drop the hydrant in, 1/4 turn and open the valve. Its pre connected to 150' of 3in supply (approx.) hose. the access plates are staggered so on the other side of the street they are in-between the others. So the rig is never more than about 30 feet from a hydrant box. So another reason for smaller rigs, is they do not need hosebeds.

Are they more maneuverable? Yes

Would they work here? Yes

Would they be more effective on initial responses here? Yes.

Would more conflagrations with total loss of any highly developed areas occur here? Yes.

Would insurance premiums here skyrocket here, due to an inability to meet the needed fire flow? Yes.

Finally, European FD's have other systems for moving large volumes of water during major incidents. they use large trailer or POD pumps and draft out of canals. they use 6" supply lines for this and often use hydraulic pumps. Lots of lessons here for depts. that do not have hydrants.

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Does anyone know what the smaller apparatus is that the article references in the Bernal Heights section of town?

[Bnechis 3,961]

Just saw another article on this that said the head of public works is also against this as the garbage trucks will have trouble with this plan as well.

Apparently the Supervisors idea is to widen the sidewalks, pushing parking towards the street and making the street area narrower.

While the talk has been about making engines smaller, another issue is what happens when you reduce the space for ladder jack spread?

California already severely restricts the weight per axle which is why you do not see tower ladders, large tankers or even larger tanker delivery trucks (for fuel delivery).

So if they do this; 1) they will have a problem with FD vehicles, 2) they will have a problem picking up the garbage, 3) they may have a problem with deliveries to homes & stores.