Stage away till FD arrives

[16fire5 693]

13 flights? There were 3 elevators and Ive got no problem with PD securing them especially for FD use if they have Elevator FD Emergency Service keys. Maybe that's all they should do? Or how about secure all 3 in the Lobby and let one Officer take one to 2 floors below and investigate but surely not to the fire floor or did it malfunction and go to the fire floor? Were there odd and even bank cars or blind shaft banks? A lot of questions to be answered before everyone jumps to conclusions.

You say 13 flights like it's a big deal. While I don't do it all the time I can say plenty of times I have done that many because the elevators were OOS, there was a backlog, or I was assigned to search the stairways.

I would say no unequivocally to PD using the elevator in a building on fire prior to our arrival. One of our fundamentals when we use elevators during fires is that we always staff them with members with SCBA and forcible entry tools. Elevators malfunctioning during fires is not uncommon at all. The difference is firefighters presented with that situation can don their facepiece and make their way to the stairwell. If they end up in a stalled car they can don their facepiece and attempt to force their way out. Elevators are a necessary evil that we only use when the fire is above the 7th floor otherwise we walk up. The risk faced by a Police Officer of using the elevator is not worth the benefit in my opinion.

[Bnechis 3,961]

Until they start filling pots of water from the tub and sinks. Hopefully they'll just leave.

[FirNaTine 370]

put_out_fire.jpg

And there you have it! LOL!

[SageVigiles 1,194]

Reposting something I put on another forum about this topic with a few additions.

While they certainly acted outside their scope of training and equipment, the NYPD Housing Bureau environment isn't like anything we have here in CT. Unless I'm mistaken, most NYPD Housing beats cover a few buildings, those floors are where they patrol. Its not like they flew halfway across Brooklyn, parked their car in front of the hydrant and ran up, these Officers spend their whole shifts in these high-rises. Was taking the elevator a poor decision? I think the answer to that is obvious. But there's another issue at play here.

It seems to me that there are a lot of people in the fire service who are quick to excoriate a couple of Police Officers trying to do something to help the people in their beat, but some of those same people have nothing negative to say when Bubba rolls the tanker over doing 90MPH to an Activated Fire Alarm and neither him nor the guy in the right seat were wearing seat-belts. And why not? Because its out of respect for the families and the department affected.

My point is, members of our service have made our share of missteps, mistakes and/or plain old bad decisions from time to time, but we don't drag people through the mud. We wait until we know the facts and we show respect for those trying to bury their lost before we start picking things apart. Why don't P.O.s Guerra and Rodriguez get the same courtesy? We're on the same team here, folks.

As someone else stated, the NYPD Commissioner has identified a training gap and has stated publicly that they are going to work to improve it to prevent further injuries or Line of Duty Deaths. Which is more than some Fire Departments can say...

My thoughts and prayers are with Officer Guerra's family and his Brothers and Sisters in the NYPD. Hoping for a full and speedy recovery for Officer Rodriguez as well.

Edited April 10, 2014 by SageVigiles

[lad12derff 283]

I don't know anyone dragging these officers trough the mud here. I don't remember saying that the officers aren't sworn to protect life and property. I am tired of cops thinking the FD is against them here and on the street. The public may dislike them but I certainly do not. The facts still remain that most officers are not trained to encounter a fire in any building. How does that turn into us bad mouthing the PD? It's a fact of life. So as usual it has taken the LODD for people to wake up and smell the coffee and realize there is a problem with the system. What a shame!!

There are big differences to PD driving by a fire and stopping to render assistance while FD is notified or being dispatched and racing to the scene to dove right in. They will always beat us there.

The same goes for FD driving by a crime in progress. And stopping to render assistance and waiting for PD to arrive. We just don't get dispatched though.

So in conclusion if by starting this topic we have made our Brothers in Blue rethink entering an unknown fire condition we have done our job. To save LIFE.

Stop thinking we hate you, that could not be further from the truth

[everybodygoes 331]

If the animal PD dispatchers had actually asked the one question that would have been pertinent I wouldn't be getting my class A ready. Where is the fire, the radio run was for a 59 of a residence 2007 Surf Ave, 13th floor. Had they said 2007 surf ave fire in the hallway they would not have done what they did. We hear PD gets 2 weeks off no questions asked for smoke inhalation, thats the rumor. Nothing in the PD academy has anything to do with saving peoples lives when a fire is involved. We now have basically two dead cops, the female is not going to ever return to duty because they thought they could do something. Something would have been to make sure the doors which are sometimes borderline impossible to get open had access and that the elevators were recalled. PD should not ever be using the elevators in fireman service, that is why it is called fireman service, cause its for FD use. You specifically hear on the PD tapes, use the elevator key. When we show up if the men have to hump up 13 flights to save someone its going to take time. Why should the cop who rolls up to the fire before hand get in before us to verify to his dispatcher a fire is occurring and it never be told to FD which is in route?

[lad12derff 283]

Amen

[velcroMedic1987 330]

Reposting something I put on another forum about this topic with a few additions.

While they certainly acted outside their scope of training and equipment, the NYPD Housing Bureau environment isn't like anything we have here in CT. Unless I'm mistaken, most NYPD Housing beats cover a few buildings, those floors are where they patrol. Its not like they flew halfway across Brooklyn, parked their car in front of the hydrant and ran up, these Officers spend their whole shifts in these high-rises. Was taking the elevator a poor decision? I think the answer to that is obvious. But there's another issue at play here.

It seems to me that there are a lot of people in the fire service who are quick to excoriate a couple of Police Officers trying to do something to help the people in their beat, but some of those same people have nothing negative to say when Bubba rolls the tanker over doing 90MPH to an Activated Fire Alarm and neither him nor the guy in the right seat were wearing seat-belts. And why not? Because its out of respect for the families and the department affected.

My point is, members of our service have made our share of missteps, mistakes and/or plain old bad decisions from time to time, but we don't drag people through the mud. We wait until we know the facts and we show respect for those trying to bury their lost before we start picking things apart. Why don't P.O.s Guerra and Rodriguez get the same courtesy? We're on the same team here, folks.

As someone else stated, the NYPD Commissioner has identified a training gap and has stated publicly that they are going to work to improve it to prevent further injuries or Line of Duty Deaths. Which is more than some Fire Departments can say...

My thoughts and prayers are with Officer Guerra's family and his Brothers and Sisters in the NYPD. Hoping for a full and speedy recovery for Officer Rodriguez as well.

You're certain they acted outside their scope of training? By doing what? By answering a radio run? Does that mean that every EMT is acting outside their training and equipmetn when they show up at an ALS call?

Given the information they had, they were investigating a call about a fire and, as it turns out, it was a crime scene.

[bad box 371]

Reposting something I put on another forum about this topic with a few additions.

While they certainly acted outside their scope of training and equipment, the NYPD Housing Bureau environment isn't like anything we have here in CT. Unless I'm mistaken, most NYPD Housing beats cover a few buildings, those floors are where they patrol. Its not like they flew halfway across Brooklyn, parked their car in front of the hydrant and ran up, these Officers spend their whole shifts in these high-rises. Was taking the elevator a poor decision? I think the answer to that is obvious. But there's another issue at play here.

It seems to me that there are a lot of people in the fire service who are quick to excoriate a couple of Police Officers trying to do something to help the people in their beat, but some of those same people have nothing negative to say when Bubba rolls the tanker over doing 90MPH to an Activated Fire Alarm and neither him nor the guy in the right seat were wearing seat-belts. And why not? Because its out of respect for the families and the department affected.

My point is, members of our service have made our share of missteps, mistakes and/or plain old bad decisions from time to time, but we don't drag people through the mud. We wait until we know the facts and we show respect for those trying to bury their lost before we start picking things apart. Why don't P.O.s Guerra and Rodriguez get the same courtesy? We're on the same team here, folks.

As someone else stated, the NYPD Commissioner has identified a training gap and has stated publicly that they are going to work to improve it to prevent further injuries or Line of Duty Deaths. Which is more than some Fire Departments can say...

My thoughts and prayers are with Officer Guerra's family and his Brothers and Sisters in the NYPD. Hoping for a full and speedy recovery for Officer Rodriguez as well.

This isn't about missteps of individual firefighters or police officers, This is about the largest police department in the world and its leadership's total failure to ever in modern history train the officers (that they routinely dispatch to building fires) as to what and what not to do prior to the arrival of the fire department. To his credit, Police Commissioner Bratton has acknowledged (in the wake of this tragedy) that in addition to providing no fire scene training to police officers, the NYPD (as well as the other large city PD's that the chief of patrol contacted) have NEVER had an SOP for response to and operations at a building fire... Yet they have always dispatched police officers to respond forthwith to these incidents. In NYC this was a major problem during the time that I was a firefighter (1981-2002) especially in the late 1980's where 911 frequently delayed relaying fire calls to the FDNY while multiple sector cars were already enroute to the fire. It was common to arrive at a well advanced building fire with people hanging out the windows screaming for help only to encounter the entire block filled with sector cars leaving engine companies with no access to the closest hydrants and ladder companies without access to the front of the fire building eliminating the use of their aerial devices for rescue, ventilation and roof access. Frequently PO's took windows before lines were stretched. The danger to trapped civilians, PO's and firefighters was dramatically increased by the well meaning PO's. When then Fire Commissioner Joe Bruno publicly spoke of these problems, then Police Commissioner Ben Ward stated, "Anyone can put out the fire ... I put out my own damn fires!" It's mindless idiots like Ward who are responsible for tragedies such as the one in Coney Island that killed PO Guerra and severely injured his partner. Their actions were brave, unfortunately, the leadership of the NYPD let them down by never having trained them. Just as firefighters are not routinely dispatched to confront a perp with a gun, Police Officers should not be routinely dispatched to confront a fire in a building. Fire is not something to take lightly. God Bless both of these heroic police officers and their families and I pray that this tragedy leads to better training for police regarding fire incidents as well as a clear definition as to who should be responding to what.

[FirNaTine 370]

Hey guys we got our own who are supposedly trained and still get killed in our line of work so let's not ridicule a cop or the NYPD Administration for not properly training them! Our own fellow FD Brothers screw up for not following proper protocol and the basics!!

Edited April 11, 2014 by FirNaTine

[PC_420 28]

I can tell you that for every shooting, stabbing and assault call I respond to I ask if PD in en route. I also advise that we will stage away until clear to enter the scene.

Why wouldn't a dispatcher send PD to these kind of calls, that makes you think you have to inform the dispatcher on how he or she should do his job? Perhaps, next time you advise that you have fire blowing from the 2nd floor window, should we ask "well are you putting water on it?"

[efermann 28]

Not really a comment on right or wrong, but I just stumbled across these two items listed in a row on the fireengineering site:

Updated NYPD policy:

http://www.fireengineering.com/articles/2014/04/new-york-city-police-receive-orders-on-fire-response.html

Another case of PD officers being injured at a fire. This time it wasn't a high-rise..."just" a single family house.

http://www.fireengineering.com/articles/2014/04/firefighter-and-three-lapd-officers-hurt-in-house-fire.html

My guess is that a quick internet search would turn up more of the same. Obviously, this is something that happens often. Hopefully lessons are learned and applied to training and future responses.

[robert benz 344]

Why wouldn't a dispatcher send PD to these kind of calls, that makes you think you have to inform the dispatcher on how he or she should do his job? Perhaps, next time you advise that you have fire blowing from the 2nd floor window, should we ask "well are you putting water on it?"

really!!! he didn't ask if they were dispatched, he asked if they were enroute or already on scene. We do have SOPS that state you are to ask this question. And I will back this up with a reported fire in a highrise, 4 police cars on scene prior to our arrival, 1 sitting on the hydrant we needed to make, 1 parked ifo Siamese connection. Good smoke from a pot on stove, no big deal. here is my point, 4 POLICE VEHICLES ARE NOW TIED UP AT A FIRE SCENE, THEY CANT GET OUT OF DUE TO THE WAY THEY PARKED, ALL BLOCKED IN. So the next call COULD have been a stabbing, domestic dispute / ems call. That is why we ask if they are enroute.

[Bnechis 3,961]

And I will back this up with a reported fire in a highrise, 4 police cars on scene prior to our arrival, 1 sitting on the hydrant we needed to make, 1 parked ifo Siamese connection. Good smoke from a pot on stove, no big deal. here is my point, 4 POLICE VEHICLES ARE NOW TIED UP AT A FIRE SCENE, THEY CANT GET OUT OF DUE TO THE WAY THEY PARKED, ALL BLOCKED IN. So the next call COULD have been a stabbing, domestic dispute / ems call.

And they had trouble moving them because they were being treated &/or transported for smoke inhalation, so they took the EMS resources for the public and us away.

[lad12derff 283]

Why wouldn't a dispatcher send PD to these kind of calls, that makes you think you have to inform the dispatcher on how he or she should do his job? Perhaps, next time you advise that you have fire blowing from the 2nd floor window, should we ask "well are you putting water on it?"

I would think we all know what assume means so that's why I ask if PD is en route. My first job is to return the Brothers of my company home in the morning the same way they showed up at work. I never assume that every agency is aware of what's going on. I hope that 60 control is also on the same page with regard to me transmitting the 10-75 and not assuming we are going to work but knows that we are!!!! 10-75 the box 60 control Ladder-one three is going to work!!!!!!

Edited April 12, 2014 by lad12derff