Duration a FAST Unit Should Remain On Scene?

[wraftery 1,275]

They never see it that way. They just use the cold hard numbers from runs to determine the slowest times for a station and then brown it out. Let's face it, if there were any statistics to show when a big fire was going to happen we'd all be like the wildfire teams and contracted when there was going to be a big fire.

Sadly, the numbers haven't bitten anyone in the ass yet so they keep doing it.

Cold, hard statistics are not necessarily cold nor hard. Very often they can be twisted by leaving out categories you don't like or massaging things to get the result you want.

For example, we've all heard that something like 25% of all personal injury auto accidents involve the use of alcohol.

That means that 75% are caused by a******* that are stone cold sober! You don't see any checkpoints to get them off the road.

[AFS1970 504]

I wonder if the departments calling M/A for RIT/FAST are the only one abusing the system? Here is a controversial idea, what if the departments responding as M/A are depending on those numbers to defend certain manpower numbers? Instead of abuse, I think we have a more symbiotic relationship going on here. I don't think there is a single department anywhere on earth that finds their manpower adequate. However there are budget realities and regardless of paid or volunteer the fire service has to compete (often unfairly) with a number of other services for limited tax dollars. By responding on a large amount of M/A you can sometimes make a station look busier that it really needs to be.

The department I used to be in ran quite a lot of M/A to neighboring districts, much of which was canceled en route. When we faced a staffing reduction the officers got together and realized that many of these runs were not really providing any actual service to our neighbors and ended up costing money. By making a couple of types of response reductions, our total runs were cut nearly in half. We only had reliable numbers on some of that so the reduction ended up being greater than anticipated. Yet think about your own department, if your runs were cut in half tomorrow, do you think any politician from any party would increase your manpower? Do you think some might just start pushing for a reduction in manpower?

[AFS1970 504]

I don't like replying to my own posts, but to keep things seperate and bring this back to the FAST/RIT idea, a couple of things.

No matter what you call this team, they need to be there until the IDLH operations have ceased. Sadly I have seen purported safety officers walking around in incomplete PPE and no pack checking for IDLH and reminding the supression / overhaul crews that they needed to keep their masks on. In this case you might just need 2 FAST's one for the crews and the other for the Safety Officer.

As for that defensive fire with the chimney still standing, while I probably don't technically need one, I would say that if I am going to have crews, even on master streams anywhere near the collapse zone of that chimney, then I want a RIT in place and ready to go. Too many guys have been hurt in areas that they least expected it.

What's in a name, RIT or FAST or 2 In / 2 Out? I was in a class in another part of my state once and as we talked about various ICS topics, it became clear that in that area FAST was something different from 2 In / 2 Out. What I later found out was that this area had one career department in the area that they always called for a FAST, however they would start interior operations as soon as they satisfied the NFPA standard of 2 OUT, then let the FAST relieve those guys when they got there. I have no idea how that worked out for them, but I have never heard of an LODD in that area, and while unusual it might just be an innovative way to deal with low initial manpower.

Sadly when you have a department that always is seen as a FAST they get a reputation and some chiefs get the idea that they can't have a fire without a certain FAST on scene. I was at a fire where my crew was initially assigned as RIT, my crew hated it but that was our assignment. I heard another unit sign on the air as responding as the RIT. I asked the IC if we had been reassigned and he said we would be when the other crew got there. I asked why he didn't just leave us as RIT and his reply was that "you have to have them as your RIT" meaning that company that was coming in. The funny thing is I was at a party talking with a friend from that company and he was laughing about being called in as a RIT because he said they didn't get any special training except once a year and relied mostly on the basics if activated. He was of the opinion that their reputation as a RIT was not earned.

That brings up the final point of RIT training. It is out there, but it is largely optional. In CT I bet you could get at least 40 hours of RIT related training at the academy. I know they have a 2 day basic RIT, 2 day advanced RIT and a 1 day MAYDAY class. They may have more than that now. If you added in some of the other firefighter safety classes like Rehab Operations and some of the advanced SCBA classes that might help you not need to call the RIT, you might even be able to get two solid weeks of training in this area. That's not even getting into the really gung ho physical stuff. However you try and get your chief to send more than a couple of guys for all that optional training, and then you try and get more than a few guys to go to that training if it is offered. Sometimes staying safe is an uphill battle.

[Bnechis 3,961]

What's in a name, RIT or FAST or 2 In / 2 Out? I was in a class in another part of my state once and as we talked about various ICS topics, it became clear that in that area FAST was something different from 2 In / 2 Out. What I later found out was that this area had one career department in the area that they always called for a FAST, however they would start interior operations as soon as they satisfied the NFPA standard of 2 OUT, then let the FAST relieve those guys when they got there. I have no idea how that worked out for them, but I have never heard of an LODD in that area, and while unusual it might just be an innovative way to deal with low initial manpower.

"NFPA standard of 2 OUT"

The term "2 Out" is not an NFPA standard its OSHA LAW (in 26 states including NY & CT). I am amazed that the fire service still does not understand that 2in 2out is the law and has been so now for over 16 years.

NFPA 1710 requires an IRIT (initial rapid intervention team) of 2 members. This is to meet the 2 out law. Once a "working fire" is declared, NFPA 1710 requires you upgrade that to a full RIT and add a safety officer.

[jd783 64]

For all who have heard the Boston double LODD audio take note that the mayday was called at the 7 min mark. Question to all what departments have a FAST team in place within the first couple minutes of the incident. This is just a different take on the question that started this thread.

[CFI609D 119]

Required reading, especially for those who do not take the role or importance of FAST/RIT seriously, as well as those who do not regularly drill on FAST/RIT skills. Do not let the sacrifice of our brothers in Boston be in vain...train in their honor!

http://www.bostonglobe.com/metro/2014/03/27/rescue-team-member-recalls-efforts-save-trapped-firefighters-explosion/fpaSuuNZuVVlBPOJ0H7a2O/story.html

http://www.bostonglobe.com/metro/2014/03/27/when-routine-turns-crisis/VciKjCDUWGZbp8saE1jWGM/story.html

[Bnechis 3,961]

For all who have heard the Boston double LODD audio take note that the mayday was called at the 7 min mark. Question to all what departments have a FAST team in place within the first couple minutes of the incident. This is just a different take on the question that started this thread.

On one of the tapes It was at about 8.5min from the initial tone out.

You are correct and most depts. have trouble getting a couple of members on scene in this time, much less your full 1st alarm assignment including FAST. This is in a similar time frame to our mayday incident last month. Since the 2nd alarm was struck BEFORE the 1st rig arrived on-scene we had approximately 30 responders in route/on-scene within the 10 minute mark. By then members had already performed a rescue of a civilian and started attacking the fire. At around the 10 minute mark, members were bailing out of upper floor windows.

This brings us to the 2 biggest issues for firefighter safety;

1) YOU MUST HAVE SUFFICIENT INTERIOR FIREFIGHTERS ARRIVING WITHIN 8 to 10 MINUTES. The fire does not care if you are career, combo or volunteer.

2) EVERY FIREFIGHTER & EVERY RIG MUST BE ABLE TO BE A FAST or RIT TEAM.

This means if you do not have at least 16 (and in most cases 20) interior firefighters on the initial alarm your system is broken. To many depts. are fighting to keep the status quo and this is just wrong.

[Bnechis 3,961]

Todays Boston Globe http://www.bostonglobe.com/metro/2014/03/29/incident-commander-deadly-boston-blaze-was-faced-with-agonizing-decision/IrzBTxR22wbQ0JwcUuMHEK/story.html

Department spokesman Steve MacDonald said firefighters are trained to follow protocols and procedures on such things as mayday calls, building evacuations, and trapped victims, although he did not provide specific details on what those policies are.

MacDonald said a Rapid Intervention Team of 10 responders is dispatched to each scene of a one-alarm fire to assist firefighters. A team was sent to assist in Wednesday’s fire, he said.

How many send 10? How many even have a 4 member FAST (AS per NFPA) and having 6 additional ff's in staging?

In some communities we are more concerned with covering the station, but statistically the chance of a 2nd fire is almost zero, while the active fire is more likely to require additional resources. Other parts of the country will send units to staging a block or 2 away and they will also cover the community from staging. That way if needed at the scene they are already geared up a few blocks away.

Why 10? How many do you need? Read what Phoenix FD determined when they studied it.

[jd783 64]

http://www.fireengineering.com/articles/print/volume-156/issue-12/features/rapid-intervention-isnt-rapid.html

Great eye opening article Please read!!

[Morningjoe 162]

For all who have heard the Boston double LODD audio take note that the mayday was called at the 7 min mark. Question to all what departments have a FAST team in place within the first couple minutes of the incident. This is just a different take on the question that started this thread.

Just another reason why the department I volunteer for dispatches a FASTeam with the initial dispatch of any reported structural type fire.

[SageVigiles 1,194]

Welp, Captain Nechis opened the flood gates...

He's 100% correct. EVERY single Firefighter should be trained in RIT/FAST. Do we have Firefighters who are only trained to do fire attack but can't do search and rescue? Do we have Firefighters that can only do forcible entry but can't do fire attack? Sure, certain companies specialize more in one than the other, but come on people, its 2014. This is an ESSENTIAL function and everyone needs to know at least the basics.

Maybe your department doesn't have the manpower to have a full RIT/FAST (beyond the OSHA required 2 out) but we can certainly automatic aid a neighboring company. What I don't agree with is the idea that only certain departments can be RIT/FAST. Especially when that department can be responding from 3-4 towns away from your scene.

Sure, you could make the argument that you don't want inexperienced people on RIT. But let me ask you this, when its YOU in the basement calling for help, which would you rather have?

A. The 5-6 relatively young Firefighters with basic RIT training and skills, standing on the front lawn ready to go.

-OR-

B. The Super Elite Special Operations FAST truck coming from 4 towns away that's still 10 minutes from the scene?

I realize that I'm talking in extremes here, because usually you'll have something in the middle of both of those scenarios, but its the easiest way to illustrate the point. If EVERYONE is qualified to be RIT/FAST, then you can use anyone for the function instead of relying on a resource that's further away when time is critical.

Edited March 31, 2014 by SageVigiles

[FirNaTine 370]

Before we worry about every FF being experienced and well skilled in RIT/FAST SOPs(which is truly important also) how about we make sure everyone can "Pump and Ventilate" properly, accurately and as quickly as possible, reducing the chances of having to put a RIT/FAST Team to work. After all these are the Basics right? Put the friggin fire out folks as quickly as possible and most your troubles will go away. Let's also stop assigning positions on Apparatus based on "Seniority" and more on "Ability!" I can guarantee you to if you look at most LODs, they are attributed to Complacency,Ignoring Dept. SOPs or maybe following piss poor SOPs that were implemented and were doomed to fail from the beginning and/or plain out Incompetence on an individual's ability to perform. In a nut shell I guess what Im trying to say is Im sure many LODs are cause by "Human Error" but nobody wants to admit it! There I said it! Let's always stop trying to point fingers and blame everybody but ourselves and our fellow so called 'Brother" FFs. Many guys die in our Profession because of stupid mistakes made on the fire ground, not because there were only 2 or 4 guys on a RIT/FAST Team instead of 10. Let's get out of the "Denial Phase" please and constantly blaming Management and the Administration! We at many times are our own worst enemy but don't want to admit it!

[antiquefirelt 994]

I'm not sure why anyone in 2014 isn't teaching RIT/FAST basics in FF I or rookie school. If you can be certified to be an interior firefighter, you should be given the basics to be a member of RIT/FAST. This minimal no/limited experience firefighter may be far from ideal as a RIT member, but in way too many cases, it's much better than what is currently present on the fireground. Like every other task taught in FF I, there are more classes and more drills out there for one to become more knowledgeable and confident. All are a benefit, though none replace actual experience. Treating RIT./FAST like a specialty has resulted in more FD's doing nothing instead of doing more. As is eloquently noted above, the best way to ensure Brothers and Sisters don't get injured or killed is for everyone to know their job, and do their job at the highest level possible. What a Metro FD can do as compared to what a small VFD can do will never be the same, but doing nothing/too little will always be wrong, regardless of what excuse you try and pin it on. Every firefighter who wears an SCBA today and everyday going forward must know how to rescue other firefighters and how to prevent his/her own MAYDAY, anything short of this is unconscionable. Please give me some excuses why this shouldn't or can't be done.

Edited March 31, 2014 by antiquefirelt

[SageVigiles 1,194]

Before we worry about every FF being experienced and well skilled in RIT/FAST SOPs(which is truly important also) how about we make sure everyone can "Pump and Ventilate" properly, accurately and as quickly as possible, reducing the chances of having to put a RIT/FAST Team to work. After all these are the Basics right?

I agree with the basic logic you're pointing out, that if you put the fire out everything else goes away, but the point I'm trying to make is that being able to rescue one of your own should be considered one of the basics. Obviously not everyone is going to be a RIT "expert" but its nonetheless a critical set of skills to be comfortable with.

Edited March 31, 2014 by SageVigiles

[TimesUp 148]

Interesting concept: A) Train to deal with the problem which will negate the aftermath, Or B. Ignore the problem and train for the aftermath. It's not always this cut and dry but if I were given a choice I would choose "A". All to often I see people go right to "B" It would also help to identify the problem before there is even a chance of a aftermath. Training for a worst case scenario has its place in the fire service. Preventing a worst case scenario from happening has a bigger place though.

Edited March 31, 2014 by ltrob

[FirNaTine 370]

I agree with the basic logic you're pointing out, that if you put the fire out everything else goes away, but the point I'm trying to make is that being able to rescue one of your own should be considered one of the basics. Obviously not everyone is going to be a RIT "expert" but its nonetheless a critical set of skills to be comfortable with.

100% correct but also we should try and remember as much as possible what we've been taught on how to not get ourselves or put others in a predicament that would require a FAST Team to be deployed.

[FirNaTine 370]

Interesting concept: A) Train to deal with the problem which will negate the aftermath, Or B. Ignore the problem and train for the aftermath. It's not always this cut and dry but if I were given a choice I would choose "A". All to often I see people go right to "B" It would also help to identify the problem before there is even a chance of a aftermath. Training for a worst case scenario has its place in the fire service. Preventing a worst case scenario from happening has a bigger place though.

It's like the old "Cart before the Horse" mentality! I guess this would be along the same lines as telling people how to prevent fires within their home after their house burned to the grown. Let's try an concentrate more on preventing a calamity before it happens.

[Jybehofd 85]

A FAST team is good and all but has a team ever trained with there local EMS or VAC? What happens after the fire fighter is pulled out? is C-Spine considered? If its a surround and drown do you release the medic when the area has no medics in-service? How long does EMS stay on scene? are they released the same time the FAST team is?

Please don't respond to these questions. ask your IC or chiefs them or at least the first one. ALOT of EMS and VACs DO NOT KNOW what and who the FAST team is. every fire i go on i like to find them and the IC and then make the ambulance crew meet and great the FAST team... yeah it sounds silly but when it hits that fan your going to be running and screaming for the EMTs and Medics. north of 287 seems like they have been further and further apart lately from things i have been seeing except for very few departments.