Duration a FAST Unit Should Remain On Scene?

[x635 4,066]

Is there a protocol on how long a FAST team should remained assembled and ready on a fire scene?

I would think that it would be until every firefighter is out of the building for good, meaning after overhaul, investigation, etc. Is it? Because anything can happen with that compromised structure, even after knockdown.

[TimesUp 148]

How long until somebody says its "FAS Team" Start the clock now! Until everybody is no longer working in a idlh environment wether a house or a hole

Edited March 21, 2014 by ltrob

[SageVigiles 1,194]

How long should the companies assigned to these functions stay on scene?

-Search and Rescue

-Fire Attack

-Water Supply

-Ventilation

-Salvage and Overhaul

-Incident Command

See where I'm going with this?

Guys can (and often do) get hurt/trapped/killed during the salvage and overhaul phase of the incident. Look at what happened in Bedford Hills, guys are pulling ceilings and 8 people end up getting transported...Thankfully they had FAST assets in place.

ltrob nailed it, if you have people in IDLH you should (and Capt. Nechis can correct me if I'm wrong) and legally MUST have a FAST/RIT of some kind ready to go.

Don't even get me started on the RIT/FAST Training issue and the "Its not my job, that's a Special Ops thing" attitude people take on that essential fireground function. I think I've made that rant once or twice here already...

[ex-commish 490]

the important question is not being asksed and that is what training do your fast teams have? tell the truth: do your fd's have more than firefighter 1? do your fast teams have NY state fast training AND do they practice their skills?

FAST should be part of FF1

[Bnechis 3,961]

ltrob nailed it, if you have people in IDLH you should (and Capt. Nechis can correct me if I'm wrong) and legally MUST have a FAST/RIT of some kind ready to go.

Legally the only requirement is for "2 out" not FAST, but since FAST is in NFPA standards, a dept &/or IC could get sued if something went wrong and they did not have FAST.

[CFI609D 119]

Legally the only requirement is for "2 out" not FAST, but since FAST is in NFPA standards, a dept &/or IC could get sued if something went wrong and they did not have FAST.

Sadly this state is way behind the times and due to home rule, requires very little. That said, the lesson of Lairdsville is that the NFPA standards are what Chiefs and the AHJ will be held to in a court of law, both for civil and criminal trials.

IMHO, it is crazy that we do not mandate FF1, FF2, Survival, FAST, TCO, etc. for ALL interior firefighters. And far too few firefighters in our area are being assigned to operate as part of a FAST/RIT unit without training in even the basic FAST skills.

[38ff 250]

Ulster County is toying with the idea of integrating FF safety and Survival into FF1 classes. So that is a start.

[MoFire390 118]

FAS teams should be there for the entire incident. As long as there is interior work being done they should be there. Heck even for exterior work. You never know when or what will happen. It's always better to be safe then sorry.

[Bnechis 3,961]

1) Sadly this state is way behind the times and due to home rule, requires very little. That said, the lesson of Lairdsville is that the NFPA standards are what Chiefs and the AHJ will be held to in a court of law, both for civil and criminal trials.

2) IMHO, it is crazy that we do not mandate FF1, FF2, Survival, FAST, TCO, etc. for ALL interior firefighters. And far too few firefighters in our area are being assigned to operate as part of a FAST/RIT unit without training in even the basic FAST skills.

1) Nobody in NYS believed it, it was claimed by many in the fire service it would not be used against us, but at the same time the judges & lawyers were saying it would.

2) The volunteer fire service needs to convince FASNY. They have lobbied against it on your behalf for decades.

[CFI609D 119]

1) Nobody in NYS believed it, it was claimed by many in the fire service it would not be used against us, but at the same time the judges & lawyers were saying it would.

2) The volunteer fire service needs to convince FASNY. They have lobbied against it on your behalf for decades.

Amen, Barry!

Sadly, FASNY's misguided priorities (blue lights, dumbing-down training standards, etc.) only hold us back. The volunteer fire service needs to understand that FASNY and the attitude they represent do nothing to increasing firefighter safety. And it is unrealistic for the volunteer fire service in NY to get the respect that so many want as long as we have training "apartheid"!

[ex-commish 490]

1) Nobody in NYS believed it, it was claimed by many in the fire service it would not be used against us, but at the same time the judges & lawyers were saying it would.

2) The volunteer fire service needs to convince FASNY. They have lobbied against it on your behalf for decades.

While I agree # 2 is correct we need to start convincing at the local level first....without that you have nothing. #1 goes without saying,

[TimesUp 148]

I do believe they can be released before the fire is out if there is a "RIT" on scene. Although some departments have SOP's which prohibit this.

Edited March 22, 2014 by ltrob

[CFI609D 119]

I do believe they can be released before the fire is out if there is a "RIT" on scene. Although some departments have SOP's which prohibit this.

RIT and FAST are two different terms for the same thing.

[Remember585 815]

1. So long as personnel are operating within the IDLH - then yes, someone needs to be designated to the responsibility of firefighter rescue. How an IC handles this is their call.

2. Why doesn't Westchester have an accepted minimum training / minimum staffing requirement in the Mutual Aid plan for a FAST company?

3. Why is everyone depending on the Mutual Aid FAST to be their "solution" to cover their 2 In / 2 Out? Someone needs to be the "2 Out" right off the bat if you got "2 In."

4. What is a department's SOG when they have a MAYDAY? This is something our department is working on now for several months. Our biggest concern isn't so much what happens at an incident in our jurisdiction, it's when we go Mutual Aid. How do we go about getting the resources we're looking to get? What do you do if that IC refuses to call for them?

5. It's 2014. We have talked about FAS Teams for what, 15 or more years and had the same discussions/debates... let's knock off this bullshit and get a f***ing plan in place, train on it and pray we never need it! This isn't about paid vs. volunteer, this isn't about calling a department because they're your drinking buddies - THIS IS TAKING CARE OF OUR OWN.

I'm sorry guys, but this stuff truly strikes a nerve with me. But I know DAMN WELL that those of you who are intelligent firefighters, officers or past officers are agreeing with me and beating your head against your desk just like me.

[Bnechis 3,961]

2. Why doesn't Westchester have an accepted minimum training / minimum staffing requirement in the Mutual Aid plan for a FAST company?

3. Why is everyone depending on the Mutual Aid FAST to be their "solution" to cover their 2 In / 2 Out? Someone needs to be the "2 Out" right off the bat if you got "2 In."

5. It's 2014. We have talked about FAS Teams for what, 15 or more years and had the same discussions/debates... let's knock off this bullshit and get a f***ing plan in place, train on it and pray we never need it! This isn't about paid vs. volunteer, this isn't about calling a department because they're your drinking buddies - THIS IS TAKING CARE OF OUR OWN.

2. Why doesn't Westchester have an accepted minimum training / minimum staffing for almost everything we do? Why did some inner city areas of the county get ALS before most wealthy areas? Why is no one complaining when they hear page after page for manpower? We have depts. that are violating state and federal laws when it comes to this and they are just relying on the fact that no one is forcing the issue.

3. because we have way too many fire departments who can no longer staff to the most minimum of levels and they refuse to consider changing and as long as the public does not demand it we can slide. By their silence they are lying to the public who think they are protected.

5 AGREED!!!!!!!!

[wraftery 1,275]

I can't call it common sense because it really isn't that common in Westchester. Just reading through some of the misconceptions regarding FAST. My fingers (2)are wearing to the bone explaining the rules and standards regarding compliance here on emtb. I don't intend to explain it again, but now we have the question "Can Fast leave once the fire is out?" And the answer "Yes, if there is a RIT team in place."

It goes to show that even the clueless can give a correct answer once in a while, FAST_RIT_MAT=Samey same.

Now, lets try the common sense approach: You had a house fire that was a defensive operation from arrival to end of incident. Now the dwelling has collapsed into the basement, leaving only the 30 foot chimney standing as you wet the rubble down from afar.

Question: To comply with all rules and standards, Did you ever need a FAST team anywhere in the operation. If you answered "No,as a skilled IC, would you have one in place any way?

[TimesUp 148]

I do believe they can be released before the fire is out if there is a "RIT" on scene. Although some departments have SOP's which prohibit this

This didn't go over to well. I apologize, It cracked me up when I typed it. fast,RIT and then SOP's..........never mind. I never intended to injure anybody's fingers. But thanks for the explanation.

Edited March 23, 2014 by ltrob

[FirNaTine 370]

^{I love when there's a skeleton crew inside busting their hump overhauling and chasing hot spots only to see 3 to 4 fresh guys outside standingby for the inevitable. Yeah that makes sense! Get your RIT /FAST or whatever you want to call it asses inside and relieve the Brothers! Enough already!!}

[Bnechis 3,961]

^{I love when there's a skeleton crew inside busting their hump overhauling and chasing hot spots only to see 3 to 4 fresh guys outside standingby for the inevitable. Yeah that makes sense! Get your RIT /FAST or whatever you want to call it asses inside and relieve the Brothers! Enough already!!}

Wrong. Get more members on-scene to get the job done and leave RIT/FAST standing bye.

WHY DO WE CONTINUE TO ACCEPT NOT ENOUGH STAFFING AT FIRES?

While we cant change the on-duty staffing. Their are standards for staffing at incidents. The bosses need to follow them and the unions need to hold their feet to the fire on this. If it means calling every dept. mutual aid then DO IT. But no we then complain that this is abuse. Yes it is, but whats more important is the brothers inside. Maybe if the abuse gets bad enough, the communities will open their eyes and accept change.

[wraftery 1,275]

This didn't go over to well. I apologize, It cracked me up when I typed it. fast,RIT and then SOP's..........never mind. I never intended to injure anybody's fingers. But thanks for the explanation.

I apologize, too. I didn't realise that youwere saying it tongue-in-cheek, but you must admit that there are those out there who really don't know the difference (or non-difference) between FAST and RIT.

Good one liner, ltrob, Too bad I missed the catch.

[FirNaTine 370]

Wrong. Get more members on-scene to get the job done and leave RIT/FAST standing bye.

WHY DO WE CONTINUE TO ACCEPT NOT ENOUGH STAFFING AT FIRES?

While we cant change the on-duty staffing. Their are standards for staffing at incidents. The bosses need to follow them and the unions need to hold their feet to the fire on this. If it means calling every dept. mutual aid then DO IT. But no we then complain that this is abuse. Yes it is, but whats more important is the brothers inside. Maybe if the abuse gets bad enough, the communities will open their eyes and accept change.

Don't hold your breath! Communities will never open their eyes! Taxpayers care about two things and that's Police Protection and their Garbage being picked up cause God knows their house won't catch fire their neighbors will! So long as other Municipalities keep bailing each other out those that abuse M/A will continue to do it! BTW those that continue to respond on M/A and play in each others sandbox aren't helping their "Brothers" in a neighboring Community they're actually hurting them and helping the neighboring Municipalities Administration who don't have to hire more individuals and can even put apparatus oos cause hey what the hell Ill just utilize another Communities FD if there's a fire, right? Don't take it personal but the truth is Bnechis Dept. members whose Administration abuses M/A, don't want the help anyway from neighboring Depts.. Again your not helping them with their cause your only helping their Administration! Trust me!

[TimesUp 148]

If departments stop abusing mutual the need for the merging of departments will be negated? Mutual aid in some examples is what enables these "abusive departments" to not hire or have enough manning. Thus always calling for mutual aid.

Why would a Mayor/Commissioner/Chief wan't to hand over the reins of his/her department when they can just call mutual aid and receive a supplement to their fire department. Many feel and I have read on here how well mutual aid works and at no cost to the department receiving mutual aid.

I see how the merger would be better for all involved, citizens included. I just don't think there are enough motivating factors for the Mayors etc... to get on board.

Barry you don't have to convince me. I'm not the one who gives the "ok" on wether this ever happens or not. The Mayors have to see a need, and with such an effective mutual aid plan they never will.

[TimesUp 148]

was this thread just hijacked ?

[Bnechis 3,961]

Don't hold your breath! Communities will never open their eyes! Taxpayers care about two things and that's Police Protection and their Garbage being picked up cause God knows their house won't catch fire their neighbors will! So long as other Municipalities keep bailing each other out those that abuse M/A will continue to do it! BTW those that continue to respond on M/A and play in each others sandbox aren't helping their "Brothers" in a neighboring Community they're actually hurting them and helping the neighboring Municipalities Administration who don't have to hire more individuals and can even put apparatus oos cause hey what the hell Ill just utilize another Communities FD if there's a fire, right? Don't take it personal but the truth is Bnechis Dept. members whose Administration abuses M/A, don't want the help anyway from neighboring Depts.. Again your not helping them with their cause your only helping their Administration! Trust me!

You are partially correct, Communities will never provide adequate staffing because of cost, but it has nothing to do with mutual aid.

Since almost every dept. is not bringing enough manpower to incidents to meet the standards( and in some cases violating state law) even when they are abusing mutual aid your argument holds no water. You claim they will not increase staffing because of mutual aid, but they do not even request enough mutual aid to get to standards. Why are firefighters not complaining about this?

Ok so following your logic, we stop sending mutual aid to community X, because the members don't want it. The municipality still will not increase the staffing (or in VFD communities their are no additional volunteers). This means the members will work harder, with higher personal risk and still no help. Plus the community will be at greater risk at both the incident and the uncovered areas. So how will this fix anything?

My dept. had 199 firefighters 40 years ago, then 187, 186, 180, 170, 168, 166, 160, 154..........And in the last 25 years we had NO increase in mutual aid. But we went from 187 to 154 (with a threat of lower). During that time all the firefighters kept claiming it would get better if we just fought for it.

Everyone of the depts. around us have lost ff's or have been stagnant as call volume increases.

You keep arguing for no mutual aid, but then you also admit that the community will not spend any more $$$$. So failing to help each other only hurts us.

[FirNaTine 370]

You are partially correct, Communities will never provide adequate staffing because of cost, but it has nothing to do with mutual aid.

Since almost every dept. is not bringing enough manpower to incidents to meet the standards( and in some cases violating state law) even when they are abusing mutual aid your argument holds no water. You claim they will not increase staffing because of mutual aid, but they do not even request enough mutual aid to get to standards. Why are firefighters not complaining about this?

Ok so following your logic, we stop sending mutual aid to community X, because the members don't want it. The municipality still will not increase the staffing (or in VFD communities their are no additional volunteers). This means the members will work harder, with higher personal risk and still no help. Plus the community will be at greater risk at both the incident and the uncovered areas. So how will this fix anything?

My dept. had 199 firefighters 40 years ago, then 187, 186, 180, 170, 168, 166, 160, 154..........And in the last 25 years we had NO increase in mutual aid. But we went from 187 to 154 (with a threat of lower). During that time all the firefighters kept claiming it would get better if we just fought for it.

Everyone of the depts. around us have lost ff's or have been stagnant as call volume increases.

You keep arguing for no mutual aid, but then you also admit that the community will not spend any more $$$$. So failing to help each other only hurts us.

That's your opinion Bnechis and your absolutely entitled to it but there are many out there that agree with me too. You are also a member of a Dept whose members come running back I believe for every Job. You are a call back FD while others are not so ya what the hell request m/a and then get them released asap when we have enough staffing to man our spares. Why wouldn't City Officials love that option also? Hell I would if I was a Mayor and knew I could either rely on m/a to supplement my FD or even have my own ffs come running back. Give them a little ot and everyone will be happy and they'll shut up so long as you pad their pockets! To each is own. Now why I would never condone a Dept going on strike look what YFD did I believe in 1979 or 1980 and look where they are now. They took a drastic measure jeopardizing the lives of millions, while threatening those Depts that responded M/A and it paid off for them down the road. They are now one of the most advanced,progressive and admired Depts for what they have and become and you can see this by how much everyone jumps on their NOB!! Keep running back for the cheese and accommodating your City Officials. Im sure they're tickled pink and loving it!

Edited March 23, 2014 by FirNaTine

[ex-commish 490]

1. So long as personnel are operating within the IDLH - then yes, someone needs to be designated to the responsibility of firefighter rescue. How an IC handles this is their call.

2. Why doesn't Westchester have an accepted minimum training / minimum staffing requirement in the Mutual Aid plan for a FAST company?

3. Why is everyone depending on the Mutual Aid FAST to be their "solution" to cover their 2 In / 2 Out? Someone needs to be the "2 Out" right off the bat if you got "2 In."

4. What is a department's SOG when they have a MAYDAY? This is something our department is working on now for several months. Our biggest concern isn't so much what happens at an incident in our jurisdiction, it's when we go Mutual Aid. How do we go about getting the resources we're looking to get? What do you do if that IC refuses to call for them?

5. It's 2014. We have talked about FAS Teams for what, 15 or more years and had the same discussions/debates... let's knock off this bullshit and get a gf***ing plan in place, train on it and pray we never need it! This isn't about paid vs. volunteer, this isn't about calling a department because they're your drinking buddies - THIS IS TAKING CARE OF OUR OWN.

I'm sorry guys, but this stuff truly strikes a nerve with me. But I know DAMN WELL that those of you who are intelligent firefighters, officers or past officers are agreeing with me and beating your head against your desk just like me.

John I agree with you but like I stated in the past it begins with the willingness of local leadership to get on board and change.

[TimesUp 148]

It's my understanding that a certain department does have the money. In fact its budgeted, just not spent. Money is then taken from and spent in other areas. Such as non civil service jobs created for political pay back. Mutual aid to a point enables this to happen. Why spend money on the nesessities if it will be given to you in the long run.

This is not my mentality, this is a mentality that exist in society that we all see everyday at work and in this case in government.

Sooner or later there has to be a different approach to dealing with problem that never goes away. If your not getting the desired results its time to change your tactics.

Most seminars I go to stress this. Its always about a new approach to an old problem. In some ways the evolution in the fire service is amazing. In other ways its stagnant.

[TimesUp 148]

Chiefs all over the county are furious about how some departments abuse mutual aid! Or are they?

[Bnechis 3,961]

1) Mutual aid in some examples is what enables these "abusive departments" to not hire or have enough manning. Thus always calling for mutual aid.

2) Why would a Mayor/Commissioner/Chief wan't to hand over the reins of his/her department when they can just call mutual aid and receive a supplement to their fire department. Many feel and I have read on here how well mutual aid works and at no cost to the department receiving mutual aid.

3) I see how the merger would be better for all involved, citizens included. I just don't think there are enough motivating factors for the Mayors etc... to get on board.

4) The Mayors have to see a need, and with such an effective mutual aid plan they never will.

1) And if MA does not show up? Do you think this will really change anything? I do not believe it will because the elected officials do not believe we are essential enough to properly staff us. It will however effect the understaffed crews at a fire.

2) Why would they do it when the unions say we can do a better job without merging? When the chief says its not needed (btw the last group of chiefs that funded the study on this showed that their position was it was none could provide adequate staffing and that consolidation was the best answer.

3)You are correct they have no motivation. The citizens do not want it (because they all know that their dept. is properly staffed, even in communities that do not have an FD [my favorite being told how good the Bronxville Fire Dept. is]), The chiefs do not want it, the commissioners & unions don't want it.

We have struck the iceberg, the boiler room is filling with water, their are not enough seats in the life boats and no wants to make a change. Meanwhile I see depts. in other states & countries that have encouraged this and are glad they did.

4) The Mayors do not show up at the fires, they do not understand what is needed and even if no one shows up, as long as they are not blamed by the voters, they have no reason to change, mutual aid does not even come into play.

was this thread just hijacked ?

Maybe, because many go mutual aid for FAST

Mutual aid to a point enables this to happen. Why spend money on the nesessities if it will be given to you in the long run.

Realistically if their was no mutual aid was not available do you really think they would spend the money on improving fire services?

Chiefs all over the county are furious about how some departments abuse mutual aid! Or are they?

Interesting question. How many chiefs are their and how many different answers can their be?

[Bnechis 3,961]

1) That's your opinion Bnechis and your absolutely entitled to it but there are many out there that agree with me too. You are also a member of a Dept whose members come running back I believe for every Job. You are a call back FD while others are not so ya what the hell request m/a and then get them released asap when we have enough staffing to man our spares.

2) Now why I would never condone a Dept going on strike look what YFD did I believe in 1979 or 1980 and look where they are now. They took a drastic measure jeopardizing the lives of millions, while threatening those Depts that responded M/A and it paid off for them down the road.

1) yes we call back, but we also get 2E, 2L mutual aid regardless and since we do not own that many spares we keep them until units free up at the scene.

2) 35 years ago and that worked in Yonkers, which is a very different community politically than any other in Westchester. A few years ago a few of our members held an unofficial sick-out. The union was against it and they were warned not to do it. It took the city less than 1 shift to get an injunction against the union and for every shift that members missed, every member (even those not scheduled to work or on vacation) were docked 2 days pay under the Taylor law. So I lost 2 days pay for the 1 day sickout. They also had other penilties like the city would no longer deduct union fees from our pay. I think you will find any dept today that does that will jive up almost as fast as it starts. Want to break your union, hold a job action.