Religous Graphic On A Fire Truck?

[x635 4,066]

Is this something to really be concerned or offended about? Is it "PC"? It seems to me it's meant as an inspiration to the firefighters, and not there for the public.

Commission summoned over image from Psalm 23 on Cedar Rapids fire truck CEDAR RAPIDS, Iowa — Psalm 23 is causing a stir at the Fire Department.

For 16 years, the first words of the Old Testament psalm — "The Lord is my shepherd" — have been emblazoned with an image of a firefighter on the bucket of the department’s 100-foot aerial ladder truck.

Read more: http://www.kcrg.com/home/top-9/Commission-Summoned-Over-Religious-Image-on-Cedar-Rapids-Fire-Truck--249670501.html#ixzz2vrI1KKUR

[FFPCogs 863]

I'm no PC "Nazi" by any means, in fact I'm probably one of the least PC people you'll ever meet, but in this case I think that if a rig is taxpayer funded than religious or other potentially offensive or exclusive imagery should not be on it. On the other hand if a department purchases their own apparatus, as mine does, than as far as I'm concerned they can pretty much put whatever they want on it so long as it's not pornographic or insulting.

Edited March 13, 2014 by FFPCogs

[mlaforge 2]

I also am not a "PC" person, however those people being critical have never seen the things or performed the duties that we have. There are basically 2 things that help us keep our sanity - a really warped sense of humor and some kind of faith. I would be willing to bet that if a firefighter is Jewish, Muslim, Sikh, Atheist, or whatever; they would not have an issue with it.

Edited March 13, 2014 by mlaforge

[SRS131EMTFF 471]

I would be willing to bet that if a firefighter is Jewish, Muslim, Sikh, Atheist, or whatever; they would not have an issue with it.

You'd be wrong.

If one dime of tax money was used to put the mural on the rig, then the mural should be removed.

[Bnechis 3,961]

You'd be wrong.

If one dime of tax money was used to put the mural on the rig, then the mural should be removed.

Its not if tax money was used for the mural, its if any tax money was used to buy the truck.

Because you might then need to use more tax money to defend the dept. in a separation of church & state federal lawsuit.

[Officer Ed 59]

I'm not PC nor am I religious. But the words "separation of church and state" can be found nowhere in the Constitution. The First Amendment was intended to keep government out of religion, not religion out of government. Jefferson, Madison, Fanklin, et. al. would be horrified to see how today's radical atheists, along with legislating judges; have subverted the meaning of the First Amendment.

They say that there are no atheists in foxholes. Emergency responders are constantly in "foxholes."

[x635 4,066]

Then what is a Fire Service Chaplain?

[SRS131EMTFF 471]

Then what is a Fire Service Chaplain?

Anachronism, similar to riding on the back-step, open cabs and the fire house dog.

[Bnechis 3,961]

I'm not PC nor am I religious. But the words "separation of church and state" can be found nowhere in the Constitution. The First Amendment was intended to keep government out of religion, not religion out of government. Jefferson, Madison, Fanklin, et. al. would be horrified to see how today's radical atheists, along with legislating judges; have subverted the meaning of the First Amendment.

"Separation of church and state" (sometimes "wall of separation between church and state") is a phrase used by Thomas Jefferson and others expressing an understanding of the intent and function of the Establishment Clause and Free Exercise Clause of the 1st Amendment to the Constitution of the United States. The phrase has since been repeatedly used by the Supreme Court of the United States.

The phrase "separation of church and state" in this context is generally traced to a January 1, 1802 Letter by Thomas Jefferson, addressed to the Danbury Baptist Association in Connecticut, and published in a Massachusetts newspaper.

Jefferson's metaphor of a wall of separation has been cited repeatedly by the U.S. Supreme Court. In Reynolds v. United States (1879) the Court wrote that Jefferson's comments "may be accepted almost as an authoritative declaration of the scope and effect of the [First] Amendment." In Everson v. Board of Education(1947), Justice Hugo Black wrote: "In the words of Thomas Jefferson, the clause against establishment of religion by law was intended to erect a wall of separation between church and state."

A number of letters written by both Jefferson and Madison, show what their intent was, and you have misrepresented their positions. It has nothing to do with current radical atheist's, since this is the position they wrote on 200 years ago.

[Bnechis 3,961]

Then what is a Fire Service Chaplain?

Generally a member of the clergy who volunteers their time to assist members of the fire department & the public.

In my departments case we have had &/or have Fire Service Chaplains who are Protestant, Catholic and Jewish (at one point all 3 service at the same time).

[mlaforge 2]

OK - So what about the Guardian Angel ice sculpture? I have seen that image on apparatus. The angel is a religious symbol. Anyway the story said that the department bought the truck as a demo, so it already had the mural on it. If they paid to have the mural removed, someone would find fault with that. It is becoming a sad commentary on the state of our society where a perceived religious image can cause such a controversy, however someone can blast music full of expletives, talking about beating women and killing cops in a public area where there are families and children and that is considered acceptable. IMO - bottom line, I don't care what religion you are, what race you are, what sex you are, what sexual orientation you are, as long as you have my back when it starts getting hairy because I will still have yours.

[ex-commish 490]

So what about at Christmas time when you see trucks with Christmas lights on them or departments that do Santa Claus runs with department apparatus or decorate the firehouse with Christmas decorations. Christmas is the celebration of the birth of Christ...so do we ban doing all of that?

[SRS131EMTFF 471]

If they paid to have the mural removed, someone would find fault with that.

Explain how that would work.

So what about at Christmas time when you see trucks with Christmas lights on them or departments that do Santa Claus runs with department apparatus or decorate the firehouse with Christmas decorations. Christmas is the celebration of the birth of Christ...so do we ban doing all of that?

Yes.

[Bnechis 3,961]

OK - So what about the Guardian Angel ice sculpture? I have seen that image on apparatus. The angel is a religious symbol.

Yes its a religious symbol. Judaism, Christianity, Islam, Hindi and a number of lesser known small eastern religions. So a major difference here is most of the world recognizes them as an important symbol. While as a religious symbol it still should not be on a tax funded community asset. But Angels are much less an issue as they represent the majority of religions and not just the one in the majority.

[Bnechis 3,961]

So what about at Christmas time when you see trucks with Christmas lights on them or departments that do Santa Claus runs with department apparatus or decorate the firehouse with Christmas decorations. Christmas is the celebration of the birth of Christ...so do we ban doing all of that?

Christmas lights are not religious, wreaths are seen on the front of many rigs and again not religious (unless you go back to the druids) and the courts have stated this along with the fact that religious symbols can not be displayed.

I see no issue with Santa fire apparatus runs, except when depts. violate V&T laws and dept policies by having Santa ride on top of the rig. Can you imagine the effect on a small child, if Santa falls off the rig and gets crush.

Christmas in this country is 2 different events; 1) It is the celebration of the birth of Christ for those that believe that and should be celebrated in the homes & houses of worship of those that believe and 2) it is a commercial (non-religious) event where people celebrate at the malls and on line.

[FFPCogs 863]

I agree with Barry in regards to "seasonal" light displays, wreaths and such around the holidays. But I think there is another solution, albeit highly impractical, to this conundrum if leaving the mural is of vital import. And that would be to display religious symbology reflecting all faiths on the apparatus, with a spot left bare for agnostics and atheists of course.

[Officer Ed 59]

"Separation of church and state" (sometimes "wall of separation between church and state") is a phrase used by Thomas Jefferson and others expressing an understanding of the intent and function of the Establishment Clause and Free Exercise Clause of the 1st Amendment to the Constitution oNotf the United States.

Not precisley correct as to "expressing an understanding" of the Establishment Clause. It's a phrase taken from a letter written by Thomas Jefferson 25 years after the Constitution was written . Jefferson was not even the author of the 1st Amendment. However, Jefferson and Franklin DID establish the first public school system. The schools were generally in churches and the Bible was REQUIRED reading...with the full acquiescence of Jefferson. The Bible was required reading, and teachers led prayers, in most public schools right up into the 20th century.

I am not a Christian. In fact, I am not religious at all. I am a Constitutional scholar who has studied the prolific writings of the Founders. The Bill of Rights mean EXACTLY what they say. The left is on a bent to add to and subvert it. But the intent of the Establishment Clause was solely to prevent the U.S. from doing what England did...creating a single official state religion. Many of the Founders came to America to escape the Church of England headed by the King. They wanted to ensure that nothing like it would be "established" in the U.S. That's it.

Therefore, the Clause says that "CONGRESS shall MAKE NO LAW" establishing a religion. That's it. All the rest of this "seperation of church and state" idiocy has been added by activist judges in collusion with radical atheists.

The Clause says nothing whatsoever - and nothing whatsoever was intended - that would prevent religious observances in government events and on government property. Those preclusions occurred subsequent to the appointment of liberal activists judges, beginning in the 1950s, improperly legislating from the bench.

[M' Ave 1,466]

So what about at Christmas time when you see trucks with Christmas lights on them or departments that do Santa Claus runs with department apparatus or decorate the firehouse with Christmas decorations. Christmas is the celebration of the birth of Christ...so do we ban doing all of that?

Christmas is a day that retailers build their year around. I think the birth of some kid (actually born in September) takes a back seat to commerce these days. That said, celebrate how you will.

I believe in a higher power, but I don't have one single moments use for religious organizations, churches, ect.

The founders of this country made clear on multiple occasions that they'd like the keep religion and govt miles a part.

Let's keep biblical sayings off our publicly funded property.

[ex-commish 490]

Christmas lights are not religious, wreaths are seen on the front of many rigs and again not religious (unless you go back to the druids) and the courts have stated this along with the fact that religious symbols can not be displayed.

I see no issue with Santa fire apparatus runs, except when depts. violate V&T laws and dept policies by having Santa ride on top of the rig. Can you imagine the effect on a small child, if Santa falls off the rig and gets crush.

Christmas in this country is 2 different events; 1) It is the celebration of the birth of Christ for those that believe that and should be celebrated in the homes & houses of worship of those that believe and 2) it is a commercial (non-religious) event where people celebrate at the malls and on line.

Then there is the day after....day of returns

[Bnechis 3,961]

It's a phrase taken from a letter written by Thomas Jefferson 25 years after the Constitution was written . Jefferson was not even the author of the 1st Amendment.

The letter was written January 1, 1802

The Constitution was signed on September 17, 1787

[TimesUp 148]

What if one day the religion symbol on the apparatus is not yours? Maybe it will be a phrase that most on here might find offensive. Then what?

[MoFire390 118]

No different then having a blessing of the truck. It's only words. And strong words at that.

[gamewell45 258]

So what about at Christmas time when you see trucks with Christmas lights on them or departments that do Santa Claus runs with department apparatus or decorate the firehouse with Christmas decorations. Christmas is the celebration of the birth of Christ...so do we ban doing all of that?

No, because SCOTUS has ruled that Christmas lights, Santa Claus and season's greetings are considered secular in nature. If you were to mount a cross or star of david or other religious symbol on the apparatus, it's quite likely that would cross the line.

[COH Bulldog 82]

Christmas in the US has really become a commercial endeavor. I find the true meaning of Christmas to be mostly nonexistent here these days. Just my opinion.

And let's not forget that to include everybody, we can't forget about the atheists. They might be offended by any religious symbol. They are part of our country too.

[gamewell45 258]

Christmas in the US has really become a commercial endeavor. I find the true meaning of Christmas to be mostly nonexistent here these days. Just my opinion.

And let's not forget that to include everybody, we can't forget about the atheists. They might be offended by any religious symbol. They are part of our country too.

In my opinion, Christmas has become totally commericalized. I recall as a small child how you never saw commericals or decorations up until after the Thanksgiving Holiday's passed; now I see Christmas displays/commericals as early as the end of October. It's big business for a lot of companies.

[AFS1970 504]

So is everybody ready to remove all religious symbols from apparatus? How about from uniform patches? Have we forgotten that symbol that comes to us from the Sovereign Military order of Saint John aka the Knights of Malta?