Burning Barriers: The push for women firefighters in Westchester

[x635 4,066]

MOUNT VERNON – The Mount Vernon Fire Department is looking for a few good women to join the ranks of its all-male force.

http://www.lohud.com/story/news/2014/03/07/burning-barriers-push-women-firefighters/6177913/

[FirNaTine 370]

No way in hell should any Dept should make the Physical any less challenging for woman. Are the physical demands going to be any less demanding at a Job? Enough already with this B/S and these f****** quotas. Peoples lives, both civilians and ffs are being jeopardized to satisfy a select few. Nor should the written be any less important then the Physical. No need for Braun over Brains folks you actually have to have a decent head on your shoulders also to accomplish the tasks of a ff. Anything less and people will die. FDMV actually had a woman yrs ago and where is she now? Give them the same frigging Physical and if they do well then give them the Job but can we please stop accomadating everybody! Why is it Civil Service always has to be the red headed stepchild when it comes to this nonsense.

[TimesUp 148]

The Vulcan decree is what made the written test pass/fail and the physical agility graded. It was this that made it almost impossible for a woman to get hired? How do you successfully change this? Go back to the days when both portions are equally weighted? things have come full circle in 33 years. Remarkable!

Edited March 8, 2014 by ltrob

[Bnechis 3,961]

The Vulcan decree is what made the written test pass/fail and the physical agility graded. It was this that made it almost impossible for a woman to get hired? How do you successfully change this? Go back to the days when both portions are equally weighted? things have come full circle in 33 years. Remarkable!

"The agreement had an unintended consequence of making paid firefighting jobs tougher for women to land, Mount Vernon Fire Chief Edward Stevenson said."

"Fire departments were forced to put a heavier emphasis on the physical examination rather than the written test, making it more job related and equitable to minorities, Stevenson said. But that emphasis on the physical exam made it more difficult for women."

Ok so lets look at the facts. Before the 1980 Vulcan decree no women ever passed the test and after it a few did. In fact Mt. Vernon Hired one. So it did not make it harder, it in fact made it easier.

The court agreement in each city is different as they did not make the written pass fail in New Rochelle, its still a graded test, but in Mt Vernon the Vulcans requested the federal court drop the grads because it put "minorities, including women" at a disadvantage.

Also they did not make the physical harder, they made it job related. Previously it was a physical fitness based exam, whoever could do the most push ups, sit ups, in the time allotted and running etc. Now they have you pulling hose, and running up stairs with a standpipe pack, etc. They also eliminated things like a specific height requirement and replaced it with removing a ladder from the side of an engine (if you are short this is harder to do without dropping one end).

[FirNaTine 370]

"The agreement had an unintended consequence of making paid firefighting jobs tougher for women to land, Mount Vernon Fire Chief Edward Stevenson said."

"Fire departments were forced to put a heavier emphasis on the physical examination rather than the written test, making it more job related and equitable to minorities, Stevenson said. But that emphasis on the physical exam made it more difficult for women."

Ok so lets look at the facts. Before the 1980 Vulcan decree no women ever passed the test and after it a few did. In fact Mt. Vernon Hired one. So it did not make it harder, it in fact made it easier.

The court agreement in each city is different as they did not make the written pass fail in New Rochelle, its still a graded test, but in Mt Vernon the Vulcans requested the federal court drop the grads because it put "minorities, including women" at a disadvantage.

Also they did not make the physical harder, they made it job related. Previously it was a physical fitness based exam, whoever could do the most push ups, sit ups, in the time allotted and running etc. Now they have you pulling hose, and running up stairs with a standpipe pack, etc. They also eliminated things like a specific height requirement and replaced it with removing a ladder from the side of an engine (if you are short this is harder to do without dropping one end).

Bnechis, one thing I could never understand is why they did away with the swimming portion of your test which I believe should be re-implemented for All Departments, especially yours! Every FF should know how to swim especially a Dept. adjacent to LI Sound. I don't believe it was a timed event either just prove you could swim a couple of laps I think in NRHS pool? Whatever happened to that requirement for your Dept.? Could anyone imagine a frantic Parent pleading with a so called Professional FF to save her drowning child only to have him/her say 'Maam I don't know how to swim". That would go over big!

Edited March 8, 2014 by FirNaTine

[FirNaTine 370]

The Vulcan decree is what made the written test pass/fail and the physical agility graded. It was this that made it almost impossible for a woman to get hired? How do you successfully change this? Go back to the days when both portions are equally weighted? things have come full circle in 33 years. Remarkable!

Seems like the "Experiment" came back to bite them in the Ass! Guess they didn't think of the end result besides destroying the Profession! Oh Well!

[Bnechis 3,961]

Bnechis, one thing I could never understand is why they did away with the swimming portion of your test which I believe should be re-implemented for All Departments, especially yours! Every FF should know how to swim especially a Dept. adjacent to LI Sound. I don't believe it was a timed event either just prove you could swim a couple of laps I think in NRHS pool? Whatever happened to that requirement for your Dept.? Could anyone imagine a frantic Parent pleading with a so called Professional FF to save her drowning child only to have him/her say 'Maam I don't know how to swim". That would go over big!

The federal court determined that the swimming requirement was discriminatory against minorities (the judges words not mine).

[x635 4,066]

The federal court determined that the swimming requirement was discriminatory against minorities (the judges words not mine).

Heck, to be a Lifeguard for the City Of New Rochelle you don't even have to be a "strong swimmer" as one of it's requirements! It doesn't even require a swimming test!

http://www.newrochelleny.com/DocumentCenter/Home/View/834

But could New Rochelle make it a requirement of their academy?

[Bnechis 3,961]

Heck, to be a Lifeguard for the City Of New Rochelle you don't even have to be a "strong swimmer" as one of it's requirements! It doesn't even require a swimming test!

http://www.newrochelleny.com/DocumentCenter/Home/View/834

But could New Rochelle make it a requirement of their academy?

Some of the lifeguard positions are for a city run waterpark, that the depth of water does not exceed 6 inches. I suspect that's why they don't require it.

No, because if we failed anyone because of it we would be in violation of the court order.

[SageVigiles 1,194]

Milford, CT is one of the only departments around here that I know of with a swim test.

[somebuffyguy 190]

You people want a swim test as part of the process ? How about requiring a high school diploma first ?

[Bnechis 3,961]

You people want a swim test as part of the process ? How about requiring a high school diploma first ?

You missed the point, we had a swim test and the federal courts said no more.

We do require a HS diploma and a clean criminal record (because without one you wont get your EMT, which is a job requirement)

[everybodygoes 331]

If you live in Mt Vernon, don't buy anything that burns. That whole FD is a disaster, half the guys are fresh air firemen and the guys left to do the job kill themselves and only can work for a good 10 minutes before complete exhaustion takes over. I witnessed something similar in New Orleans after Katrina. Half of the NOFD was in the front yard, half was inside, and every guy from NY was inside without a mask trying to get a piece. You see the real difference.

[FirNaTine 370]

Some of the lifeguard positions are for a city run waterpark, that the depth of water does not exceed 6 inches. I suspect that's why they don't require it.

No, because if we failed anyone because of it we would be in violation of the court order.

Bnechis wasn't the Court Order for a specific time frame until a quota was met and is probably now * and void or remains in effect forever?

[Bnechis 3,961]

Bnechis wasn't the Court Order for a specific time frame until a quota was met and is probably now * and void or remains in effect forever?

It was set up to be that once a quota (%) was met, the city had the right to come back and ask the court to end it. With the way FDNY's battle in the courts, I am not sure that going to the courts to ask for it to be dropped would happen and worst, we may get more requirements.

Sometimes leaving it alone is the lesser of 2 evils.

[CFI609D 119]

Milford, CT is one of the only departments around here that I know of with a swim test.

Westport (CT) FD also used to require a swim test.