Heroin- will we ever get it off the street

[MoFire390 118]

Here in the Tri-village there has been 2 deaths from this killer. Through my years of EMS I have seen my fair share of this killing many. Been on a ton of calls were the kids have been brought back and those that have not.

So my question to you all. How would you address your high school population with the recent deaths? Do you scare them with horror stories? Do you bring in a guest speaker who has battled addiction? Or do you just let this be?

This has been killing me for about a few hours now. Any and all answers would greatly be appreciated!!

Stay safe all

[ac316scu 31]

I would try to talk to a look at long island and see what they have tried and what has worked. Out there it has been a big issue for a number of years and is just getting worse and worse. Now with NY's new I-STOP program, https://www.health.ny.gov/professionals/narcotic/prescription_monitoring/ I feel it will just make the demand for heroin worse since there will be less prescription drugs on the streets

[MoFire390 118]

There has got to be a way that us as EMS first responders, police officers can do. just seems to be the low point on everyones check list. all the politicians are caught up in the gun control effort and not the real problem.

[FFPCogs 863]

The sad truth is illicit drugs, including heroin which is probably the most enduring of them all, will always be available to those who want them. Education and scare tactics can help by reaching a few that are on the fence, but ultimately the deck is stacked against winning the "War on drugs". The demand is too great and the incentive to deal far too lucrative for it to be otherwise. And on the flip side addiction is a most heinous affliction, and it is an affliction, it's not about being weak or stupid or a criminal it's about being sick...no one wakes up one morning and says "gee whiz I want to be an addict, I think I'll go shoot some heroin". All we can do is put the information out there about the consequences of heroin use and reach the few we can before they start or help those who seek help in the form of rehab, AA, NA ect once they have.

Edited January 31, 2014 by FFPCogs

[Westchester 49]

I'm sorry to say but there is no real answer for emergency responders to say. Drugs will always be there and it's not out job to prevent others who want to harm themseleves with this killer. Between social media and rave parties there is no end in sight. Peer pressure is higher than ever, drugs are cheap to buy, and as we all know how additive with one hit it can be. Do we blame the parents? Do we blame locaton? Ho about friends or relatives that are additive? I don't care if you live in the lower class areas or upscale areas Heroin or other narcartics are everywhere. It's up to goverment to make stricter policies so when law enforcement makes arrests of users, sellers, DUIs that the court system give s them a slap on the wrist. Heroin has been around during WW2, and will never leave. It some one wants to kill themselves, so be it !

[sympathomedic 383]

About 5 years ago when my oldest was in 6th grade, we (Somers FD EMS) did a thing, just one day, for just her class. We talked about a lot of stuff: FD and EMS as a career path, as a volunteer in the community, and drug abuse. This was so well received that it became a two day( one fire day, one EMS day), 4 times a year event (health classes change quarterly). While not focusing specifically on drug issues, we fit it in the message that there are two ways to spend a lot of time on an ambulance- as an EMT, or as a drug user. Not a big deal, but if we all worked a tiny bit on this, the end effect could be a positive change.

[MoFire390 118]

Thanks for all your answers.

Bill i would like to know more about that program. maybe you and I could discuss it more later on.

[ex-commish 490]

The kids need to know somehow the effects of heroin. As a retired correction officer of 25 years I have seen many addicts go throuring tygh some of the most horrific withdrawls....banging heads on walls, shaking, puking, scratching the paint off the walls, ramming their headhs into steel bars, crying, etc in a setting where no one really cares wether you live or die. They need to know heroin will either get you dead or locked up. Instead of trying to mess with the 2nd amendment or trying to ram this new common core program in the schools money needs to be spent on programs to deal with this. I also know a few kids that have died in the past from herion and the effect left on the families is horrible.

[Westchester 49]

The kids need to know somehow the effects of heroin. As a retired correction officer of 25 years I have seen many addicts go throuring tygh some of the most horrific withdrawls....banging heads on walls, shaking, puking, scratching the paint off the walls, ramming their headhs into steel bars, crying, etc in a setting where no one really cares wether you live or die. They need to know heroin will either get you dead or locked up. Instead of trying to mess with the 2nd amendment or trying to ram this new common core program in the schools money needs to be spent on programs to deal with this. I also know a few kids that have died in the past from herion and the effect left on the families is horrible.

I'm sorry but I disagree I some things here." More money needs to be spent on programs to deal with this". We are already spending millions on Task Forces, Drug awarness classes, never mind the insurance spent on these losers every time we pick up there high off there ass bodies and take them to the hospital to detox. Our Health care System is broken and this is a lost cause. I know you can't give up on your loved one or friend, but if they got the itch they are going to scratch it. I tired of feeling soory for people who put toxins into their body and then we have to feel sorry for them and cry and start charitys to bury someone because they spent all there money on the goodies.If you want to F**K up your life go ahead, just don't get in my way. Westchester the drug tasks force. The county or the villages and towns should post there picture and blotter report for all to see. I have lost family and friends to drugs, it sucks, but it also makes me angry that no matter what I did or said and spent ot detox programs, 12 step programs, drug testing, searching the room or cell phone for strange items or numbers, search the computer or social media, nothing helped or changed My Cousin is dead. I hate drugs and dealers. I'm sorry but its out of control. Hopefully humans will realize that GOD created and woderful creation and they are just sinning by destroying it.

Spend money and efforts on the ones that deserve it, not junkies!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Ga-Lin 86]

About 5 years ago when my oldest was in 6th grade, we (Somers FD EMS) did a thing, just one day, for just her class. We talked about a lot of stuff: FD and EMS as a career path, as a volunteer in the community, and drug abuse. This was so well received that it became a two day( one fire day, one EMS day), 4 times a year event (health classes change quarterly). While not focusing specifically on drug issues, we fit it in the message that there are two ways to spend a lot of time on an ambulance- as an EMT, or as a drug user. Not a big deal, but if we all worked a tiny bit on this, the end effect could be a positive change.

I gotta agree with you Bill, Ya gotta get them when they are young. Starting in kinderkarten. I used to be a Boy scout Cubmaster and I would always find ways to work in the warnings of addiction, Tobacco, Alcohol, Drugs didn't matter. I would tell the old story about the Indian boy and the rattlesnake. We all, as a community, school, scouts, church/temple, home, where ever the kids are, need to constantly reinforce this theme that addiction is both bad & very easy. As our children get older you need to modify the approach. Teens really aren't affected by death, that is to say, they don't think much about it, however this age group are really fearful of disfigument. My own kids (at the time) came back from HS telling me about a presentation in their health class. The teacher gave a presentation telling them not to worry, not everyone is killed or dies from drunk driving. He then displayed a number of before and after pictures. A really pretty girl...Later scarred and severly disfigured (face) from an accident. A young man in his HS football uniform along with a caption on how he was just accepted to a top 10 school to play football on a scolarship.....Later on crutches with only on leg the caption here was "he just wanted one more for the road" you get the picture.

On the topic of those already addicted.... give it to them, make drugs legal. That is to say, if you register as an admitted addict in a national data base, you can just come in and get your needles, drugs etc. If they truly want help fine, otherwise.... Hell, I'd even change the rehab centers into state sponsored shooting galleries. I can gaurentee that within a few years new addiction #'s will decrease. Other benifits, decrease in crime rates and other quality of life crimes since addicts won't have to steal or pan handle in order to support their habit, related health issues due to impure drugs, sharing neddles and speading blood bourne pathogens & spesis due to dirty needles will decrease. Elimination of drug cartels and their related violence. The saving of BILLIONS of $ that we are hemmoraging in fighting this losing battle of trying to enforce drug laws. Goverenmental & law enforcement corruption gone. I gotta tell you that I truly believe that Colorado & Washington have the right idea. I read sometime ago that Portugal did this and this was their outcome.

Edited February 1, 2014 by Ga-Lin

[SRS131EMTFF 471]

We replaced heroin with pills which are now being replaced with, you guessed it, heroin.

In VT, the state:

-Allowed lay people to obtain and admin Narcan without a prescription

-EMT BLS Intranasal Narcan

-VT State Police pilot program, hopefully during the summer, that will put Narcan into every VSP patrol car for use by officers during overdose emergencies

We will never remove the human desire to "get high", what we can do is make the possibility of death as minimal as possible.

[Ga-Lin 86]

We replaced heroin with pills which are now being replaced with, you guessed it, heroin.

In VT, the state:

-Allowed lay people to obtain and admin Narcan without a prescription

-EMT BLS Intranasal Narcan

-VT State Police pilot program, hopefully during the summer, that will put Narcan into every VSP patrol car for use by officers during overdose emergencies

We will never remove the human desire to "get high", what we can do is make the possibility of death as minimal as possible.

Heroin (the female of Hero) was originally developed to combat morphine addiction which was rampant among two surprising groups in the 1800's, MD's and wait for it ......housewifes.

[sympathomedic 383]

With the exception of suicides, I don't think anyone, from OD's to MVA'd to MI's ever start their day with the intention of ending up in an ambulance. There are some VERY bad drivers out there (maybe some of US) and their are some very bad decision makers too (also, sadly some of US), and that includes decisons that lead to drug use and abuse. But the OD group seems to attract the most ire.

I am not a drug user, but a have a sister that has been. She has OD'd and been 'saved' by an ambulance that I now work on. She has been rehabbed a bunch of times and was on various types of public assistance, RE: welfare. She is now a very productive member of the legal community and has not had a drug issue for over a decade or so.

That said, I HATE paying taxes (yea I know, they kinda pay my salary). And I really hate paying them to folks that did something dumb, like get hooked on drugs. Like I said, they didn't mean for it to happen that way, but they let it happen and now need help to fix it. Help, like fire trucks, medics and helicopters, costs some money. I don't want to write a blank check. I do want to help solve the problem. I am about 100% sure that drug money pays for terrorism, as Afganistan is a major poppy growing country. So it can help ALL of us to dry up this source of revenue to the bad guys. So I do my tiny part, and lecture the kids at my local school.

[Westchester 49]

NEW YORK -- Philip Seymour Hoffman, who won the Oscar for best actor in 2006 for his portrayal of writer Truman Capote and created a gallery of other vivid characters, many of them slovenly and somewhat dissipated, was found dead Sunday in his apartment with what officials said was a needle in his arm. He was 46.Two law enforcement officials, who spoke to The Associated Press on condition of anonymity because they were not authorized to talk about the evidence, said the actor apparently died of a drug overdose. Glassine envelopes containing what were believed to be heroin were found with him, they said.

So the question was Is heroin ever getting off the street? Here is your answer.

[SECTMB 612]

There have been warnings about the dangers of smoking on the cigarette packages for over 40 years. People still smoke. I am actually offended by the deterrent commercials that I have to endure during my shows. I have little patience or empathy for those who suffer the consequences of smoking. You were warned. You chose to ignore the warnings.

Same with drugs. As stated above, Hoffman was found dead by self inflicted overdose. Heath Ledger before him, Whinehouse before him, etc, etc, etc, etc. There is no shortage of high profile drug abusers who met an early death to accompany all the unknowns. And these are people who had the means for the best intervention treatment available. Won't change a thing. If you want or need to use drugs to satisfy some inner need, deal with the consequences. You won't get any boo hoos from me.

As a medic, take in the run, do what you can, but you can not treat the underlying reasons for the persons having taken the drugs to begin with. You are an Emergency Worker, not a Counselor, Therapist or Psychiatrist.

With the discovery of every new drug comes new abusers. Don't beat yourself up, you can't change it and now 'Society' wants marijuana as readily available as cigarettes and beer.

[fire2141 33]

We'd have a much better chance of getting this crap off the street if we secured the border.

[FFPCogs 863]

We'd have a much better chance of getting this crap off the street if we secured the border.

Yes and no. While securing the border would most likely cut some of the drug traffic across the border, it won't stop it, nothing defensive will. Even in places like Singapore and Saudi Arabia where drug possession and distribution means the death penalty there is still illegal drug use. In our case the money is just too enticing to think it would stop and truth be told there are alot of people whose livelihoods depend on the drug trade for a living..and I don't mean drug dealers, I mean DEA and State and local PDs as well. Please understand I mean no offense to law enforcement here, but by some accounts at least half of all crime is directly related to drug usage, so is it really in the best interests of those who fight that scourge and the crime it creates to see it gone completely? I think it's time to look at this realistically. Drugs have been here for centuries, they're here now and they are going to be here in the future and no matter how stringent the laws or how enlightened the education this is simply how it is. We have to grab this problem by the balls not the brains and hit them where it hurts, in the wallet. To pull the rug out from under the drug barons and their corrupt accomplices in law enforcement and politics the only real solution is legalization so that much of the profit and allure disappear. Do you think a junkie would buy street drugs if he could go to CVS and buy them legally for the same price or less? And by legalizing them they can be regulated in terms of purity and strength and taxed as well, plus most if not all law enforcement jobs would remain to ensure compliance to boot. And while even this would not eliminate illegal drugs completely, it would control them and their users far more effectively than the decades long "war on drugs" has done. And that's not an indictment of law enforcement either, they do the best they can under the circumstances when you realize that for every dollar spent to fight drugs at least two are spent to produce and smuggle them illegally and the drug lords still make billions...that's how much money we're talking about here.

Edited February 4, 2014 by FFPCogs

[Morningjoe 162]

There have been warnings about the dangers of smoking on the cigarette packages for over 40 years. People still smoke. I am actually offended by the deterrent commercials that I have to endure during my shows

“It's now very common to hear people say, 'I'm rather offended by that.' As if that gives them certain rights. It's actually nothing more... than a whine. 'I find that offensive.' It has no meaning; it has no purpose; it has no reason to be respected as a phrase. 'I am offended by that.' Well, so f****** what." - Stephen Fry

[SECTMB 612]

“It's now very common to hear people say, 'I'm rather offended by that.' As if that gives them certain rights. It's actually nothing more... than a whine. 'I find that offensive.' It has no meaning; it has no purpose; it has no reason to be respected as a phrase. 'I am offended by that.' Well, so f****** what." - Stephen Fry

I guess I should be more specific to say that I am put out, put upon, offended that I have to endure the disgusting disfigurements of smokers while I am trying to veg out with some mindless entertainment. It is unsettling to go from hot TV babe to stoma babe in the course of a few seconds. And yes I solve the problem by changing the channel.

[Ga-Lin 86]

Yes and no. While securing the border would most likely cut some of the drug traffic across the border, it won't stop it, nothing defensive will. Even in places like Singapore and Saudi Arabia where drug possession and distribution means the death penalty there is still illegal drug use. In our case the money is just too enticing to think it would stop and truth be told there are alot of people whose livelihoods depend on the drug trade for a living..and I don't mean drug dealers, I mean DEA and State and local PDs as well. Please understand I mean no offense to law enforcement here, but by some accounts at least half of all crime is directly related to drug usage, so is it really in the best interests of those who fight that scourge and the crime it creates to see it gone completely? I think it's time to look at this realistically. Drugs have been here for centuries, they're here now and they are going to be here in the future and no matter how stringent the laws or how enlightened the education this is simply how it is. We have to grab this problem by the balls not the brains and hit them where it hurts, in the wallet. To pull the rug out from under the drug barons and their corrupt accomplices in law enforcement and politics the only real solution is legalization so that much of the profit and allure disappear. Do you think a junkie would buy street drugs if he could go to CVS and buy them legally for the same price or less? And by legalizing them they can be regulated in terms of purity and strength and taxed as well, plus most if not all law enforcement jobs would remain to ensure compliance to boot. And while even this would not eliminate illegal drugs completely, it would control them and their users far more effectively than the decades long "war on drugs" has done. And that's not an indictment of law enforcement either, they do the best they can under the circumstances when you realize that for every dollar spent to fight drugs at least two are spent to produce and smuggle them illegally and the drug lords still make billions...that's how much money we're talking about here.

Totally agree.Take a look at my post on this topic #10 on 1 Feb & #12 a few hours later.

Edited February 4, 2014 by Ga-Lin

[CFI609D 119]

We'd have a much better chance of getting this crap off the street if we secured the border.

I wish you were right but sadly it is more of a demand rather than a supply issue.

[antiquefirelt 994]

I will part ways with a few here (and many nationwide) on the legalization/regulation of many drugs.

First, I think we've done a terrible job regulating prescription medication which is legally sold but still abused at exceedingly alarming rates. Access to those who shouldn't have access to prescription meds is far easier than most illegal drugs. The same proof holds true with firearms ownership, we regulate it, but still have almost no control over those who abuse the right or intend on illegal use. Our history of regulating things that have a negative impact on the users or those around them is not stellar.

Secondly, we cannot compare the U.S. to nearly any other country. We have a widely diverse population, more so than most and we have far more freedom than many/most of the countries who've "successfully" legalized drugs.

Third, we're not prepared to ensure the workforce is drug free, again too many freedoms and rights for mandatory test at all employee levels and the costs would be significant to employers or taxpayers.

We do not have a national healthcare system to help abusers, like in many other countries. Anyone who thinks there isn't a huge segment of the population that doesn't abuse drugs because their illegal is fooling themselves. If it's legal, there is little to no deterrent to those who might just try it, right ow the threat of becoming a criminal works on many.

Sadly it's far easier to poke holes in plans than figure out the solution, but I'm far from convinced we'll be better off with legalization.

[FFPCogs 863]

I will part ways with a few here (and many nationwide) on the legalization/regulation of many drugs.

First, I think we've done a terrible job regulating prescription medication which is legally sold but still abused at exceedingly alarming rates. Access to those who shouldn't have access to prescription meds is far easier than most illegal drugs. The same proof holds true with firearms ownership, we regulate it, but still have almost no control over those who abuse the right or intend on illegal use. Our history of regulating things that have a negative impact on the users or those around them is not stellar.

Secondly, we cannot compare the U.S. to nearly any other country. We have a widely diverse population, more so than most and we have far more freedom than many/most of the countries who've "successfully" legalized drugs.

Third, we're not prepared to ensure the workforce is drug free, again too many freedoms and rights for mandatory test at all employee levels and the costs would be significant to employers or taxpayers.

We do not have a national healthcare system to help abusers, like in many other countries. Anyone who thinks there isn't a huge segment of the population that doesn't abuse drugs because their illegal is fooling themselves. If it's legal, there is little to no deterrent to those who might just try it, right ow the threat of becoming a criminal works on many.

Sadly it's far easier to poke holes in plans than figure out the solution, but I'm far from convinced we'll be better off with legalization.

You are right in many ways and I fully respect your views, but as one who has been on both sides of the drug abuse fence I can tell unequivocally that the legal repercussions of drug use are an insignificant deterrent if they are one at all. Now I'm sure some will blow a head gasket with this next comment but when it comes right down to it drug addiction is no different than alcoholism other than alcohol is legal and drugs aren't. The root causes of both afflictions are the same. And when we look at the effectiveness of prohibition it's clear that making alcohol illegal created far more problems than it solved, that's why they repealed the 18th Amendment (alcohol is also a drug by the way). Today people still abuse and illicitly produce and distribute alcohol, but by far making alcohol legal again and giving those who want to drink access to it legally has been the best road to take. And in this day and age with the societal views on drug use, prescription or otherwise, as they are and the stigma far less ingrained as it used to be, so is it with drugs too. No one likes to admit defeat, but the war on drugs, just like the one against alcohol in the 1920's, is one that is unwinnable and no amount of ire, disgust or contempt about drugs and drug users is going to change that.

Edited February 5, 2014 by FFPCogs

[antiquefirelt 994]

You are right in many ways and I fully respect your views, but as one who has been on both sides of the drug abuse fence I can tell unequivocally that the legal repercussions of drug use are an insignificant deterrent if they are one at all. Now I'm sure some will blow a head gasket with this next comment but when it comes right down to it drug addiction is no different than alcoholism other than alcohol is legal and drugs aren't. The root causes of both afflictions are the same. And when we look at the effectiveness of prohibition it's clear that making alcohol illegal created far more problems than it solved, that's why they repealed the 18th Amendment (alcohol is also a drug by the way). Today people still abuse and illicitly produce and distribute alcohol, but by far making alcohol legal again and giving those who want to drink access to it legally has been the best road to take. And in this day and age with the societal views on drug use, prescription or otherwise, as they are and the stigma far less ingrained as it used to be, so is it with drugs too. No one likes to admit defeat, but the war on drugs, just like the one against alcohol in the 1920's, is one that is unwinnable and no amount of ire, disgust or contempt about drugs and drug users is going to change that.

I agree with your sentiment on alcohol, but it's also a case of our inability to get that right is another reason not to add to the list of things we fail to properly regulate. I fully understand the war on drugs hasn't been won, and don't have answers, but i know without it many more would have died.

[FFPCogs 863]

I agree with your sentiment on alcohol, but it's also a case of our inability to get that right is another reason not to add to the list of things we fail to properly regulate. I fully understand the war on drugs hasn't been won, and don't have answers, but i know without it many more would have died.

I guess this is one of those agree to disagree moments and that's ok. You know what though...the biggest shame of all is that we even have to have this discussion.

As an aside I have to say I'm thankful my kids aren't doing at their age the things that I was at that age and I think the main reason for that is because both my wife and myself have been completely open and honest about where that road leads if they do. I've buried alot of friends and seen many of the rest go off to jail because of drugs along with fighting that demon myself for a very long time, so I have a pretty intimate knowledge of the whole drug issue. Ultimately all I can say is that I wouldn't wish addiction on anyone, but for me I have to say I'm glad I did what I did, saw what I saw and suffered what I suffered because of it, for without having traveled that road I would not be who I am today.

Edited February 6, 2014 by FFPCogs

[x635 4,066]

I'm sorry I'm a little late to this discussion, and apologize if I duplicate what someone else said. There's a lot of great posts here to read.

EVERY Police Officer, Firefighter, and EMT should be trained and equipped with Nasal Narcan. Police Officers are often the fastest on scene in some communities, and I've seen it save lives. In fact, seems like every unconscious not breathing call that I get dispatched on and FD beats us there, the patient is awake and breathing when we arrive.

[sympathomedic 383]

I am with you 100% Seth. I am sure there are studies out there about the effects of over-zelouse use of Narcan, but I am not aware of any untoward effects. We all know they can exist. The benefits seem to far outweigh the dangers.

Perhaps even of greater importance is that if an OD pt is going to vomit on and then attack their rescuer, I would prefer that it be someone other than me.

[x635 4,066]

Perhaps even of greater importance is that if an OD pt is going to vomit on and then attack their rescuer, I would prefer that it be someone other than me.

LOL. I've had more diabetics attack me then heroin overdoses. The overdoses most often seem to be happy. I'm sure 4 firefighters can restrain the patient until I get there with another magic drug...Versed!

Also, I forgot to mention on my post above. ALWAYS BE CAREFUL-THE PATIENT MAY STILL HAVE NEEDLES ON THEIR PERSONS, SUCH AS POCKETS. Use caution and ask PD if there's there to pat them down, as they are trained in this.