Acceptable Response Times

[Remember585 815]

Question: What is an acceptable amount of time for a dispatched fire resource to respond to an incident (not a relocate)?

I thought of this while reading the OC thread. Often an FD is dispatched to the scene of an incident either as Automatic or Mutual Aid - then take what seems like an eternity to respond.

I'm a proactive thinker... so I am always tossing around ideas in my head - often with other similarly-minded guys. Some thoughts we've had on this subject include...

1. Give said resource XX amount of time. If they aren't responding, hit the tones again. Give them another XX amount of time, then page someone else.

2. Give said resource XX amount of time. If they aren't responding, dispatch the next like resource.

3. Leave it up to the IC to decide whether or not to let their originally requested resource cover the assignment or to move on to the next.

I don't know what the right answer is - although in a perfect world whatever an IC asks for would show up in a timely fashion. I also think that given the advances in technology we have (CAD, cell phones, IAR/Spotted Dog/Active 911/Etc.) a department should be able to know rapidly (or even ahead of time) whether or not they can staff certain resources or not. A prime example would be a FAST/RIT, because 20 minutes after being requested isn't the time to say you can't do it.

This applies to both paid and volunteer agencies. If a career FD doesn't have personnel to spare for a MA request for a shift, the Duty Officer should be able to take that resource out of service with county dispatch.

Thoughts?

Edited January 9, 2014 by Remember585

[Remember585 815]

Anyone?

[dwcfireman 656]

Ok, I'll bite.

I, too, share a similar thought process. It's always a good idea to be proactive to (1) know what resources are around and (2) whether those resources can be staffed properly for all of your "parties." I remember from when I was a young lieutenant upstate that my department regularly met with our surrounding departments to discuss the issues of the day, and created many automatic mutual aid responses to cover the needs of our district and our neighbors. This allowed the first on-scene IC to relax a bit and know that he/she is getting at least an extra engine/ladder/rescue for manpower. Furthermore, all of our large buildings (like schools) got larger AMA responses utilizing at least 2 apparati from 3 districts (3 engines, 2 ladders, and a rescue every time).

As far as the actual response time, I'm more in favor of allowing a second dispatch to allow your requested resource to be staffed. Times are tough and sometimes people just need that extra 30-60 seconds to get to the fire house. However, during a major emergency like a multi-alarm fire it doesn't hurt to start the next resource early.

2. Give said resource XX amount of time. If they aren't responding, dispatch the next like resource.

So resource XX is dispatched and does respond within the time requirement. Resource YY is dispatched and responds. Let's say after a few minutes resource XX is staffed and responds after YY is already on the road. My thought is that it never hurts to have additional resources staged nearby. I'd rather have additional resources respond and not need them than not have them and need them.

[Bnechis 3,961]

Question: What is an acceptable amount of time for a dispatched fire resource to respond to an incident (not a relocate)?

I don't know what the right answer is - although in a perfect world whatever an IC asks for would show up in a timely fashion. I also think that given the advances in technology we have (CAD, cell phones, IAR/Spotted Dog/Active 911/Etc.) a department should be able to know rapidly (or even ahead of time) whether or not they can staff certain resources or not. A prime example would be a FAST/RIT, because 20 minutes after being requested isn't the time to say you can't do it.

This applies to both paid and volunteer agencies. If a career FD doesn't have personnel to spare for a MA request for a shift, the Duty Officer should be able to take that resource out of service with county dispatch.

This is a question that a large number of depts. do not want an answer to.

Their are 2 standards for the fire service for this: NFPA 1710 & 1720.

1710 says that career depts. shall have a turnout time of 60 seconds (average). That is from the time of the alarm notification until the vehicle is moving out of the station.

1720 says nothing about responding, other than once you get on-scene you must work in an organized fashion.

Medical standards are based on total response time and do not consider the pay status of the responders, because the patient outcome is based on treatment times & not if someone is paid for it.

The 1710 standard is easy, since its based on manned stations.

The reason 1720 is silent is because the range of volunteer communities is so great that there is no way to make a standard. In a busy VFD in a small suburban community, how long does it take for a crew to get to the station and suit up and get the rig out? Now compare that to an upstate farm community that covers a 100 sq miles.?

Also in the more rural communities the call volume is often so low, that you would have trouble justifying shift staffing.

I think the only way you can get standards for this is to require regions to publish what their standard I so that everyone can see I. If their was a list that says:

Dept A is 3 minutes

Dept B is 5 minutes &

Dept C is 25 minutes,

We now have something to work on, and the community should be told, so they know.

1st step in solving a problem is acknowledging that their is a problem.

[16fire5 693]

NFPA 1720 has a table for staffing and response times. Based on population densities (urban, surburban, rural, and remote). It's a starting point.

A better solution might be to prepare a standards of cover with stakeholder input (firefighters, officers, elected officials, and taxpayers). These documents are specific to the department and evaluate risk and set goals. Once you have a document with these goals you can evaluate whether you are meeting these goals. If your not then you have a much better arguement of why you need help/staff.

These documents are part of the process that a fire department goes through to gain accreditation from CFAI.

[Bnechis 3,961]

1) NFPA 1720 has a table for staffing and response times. Based on population densities (urban, surburban, rural, and remote). It's a starting point.

2) A better solution might be to prepare a standards of cover with stakeholder input (firefighters, officers, elected officials, and taxpayers). These documents are specific to the department and evaluate risk and set goals. Once you have a document with these goals you can evaluate whether you are meeting these goals. If your not then you have a much better arguement of why you need help/staff.

These documents are part of the process that a fire department goes through to gain accreditation from CFAI.

1) Thanks, I only have the previous version of the standard at home, and did not remember if that was added in the later edition.

2) Excellent point, to bad almost no one in NYS knows about or is willing to go thru the process. Interesting when you look at most of the accredited depts. standard of cover GIS maps, they are very similar to the NFPA 1710 maps and the ISO maps.......

[38ff 250]

What is CFAI?

[Bnechis 3,961]

What is CFAI?

Commission on Fire Accreditation International

http://publicsafetyexcellence.org/agency-accreditation/about-accreditation-cfai.aspx

[wraftery 1,275]

In the Hampton Roads area here in VA, they are very into accreditation, but some departments who are accredited are not worth the title in my opinion.

OTHERS LEAVE WESTCHESTER IN THE DUST. It's not all caps because I'm yelling. The caps lock was stuck.