Yonkers Firefighters Battle Cold, Ice, Two Multi-Alarm fires

[Bnechis 3,961]

Spot on ltrob! Ive heard it with my own ears from Politicians including Mayors. Their thought is why should we hire more ffs or open a new station if we have neighboring Depts who will come and assist us. No need to increase our staffing. So as long as everyone keeps running to each others aid nobody will ever benefit except the Politicians.

Ok, so lets stop responding to all Mutual Aid and that will force all the communities to hire enough staffing to cover themselves and meet standards. I can see Pelham running right out and hiring the additional 55-60 they need, and Pelham Manor will do the same, as will everyone else.........If you really believe this is what will happen I have some "waterfront" property in So. Florida I would like to sell you.

Also, if the mayors/councils/boards are the one to sign the MA plan and you fail to follow them, I think before they start massive hiring, they will sack the chief and order the replacement to do it.

[FirNaTine 370]

1) or with 67,896 as they report. And while most communities have unreported population, all are judged (or misjudged accordingly). Lets look at the standards, you have stated that 4 engines is not enough, but the standards only require 3 for a city that size (and only 2 for that area if part of a larger dept.). MVFD runs 2-3 on the 4 engines or 8 - 10 (I believe they never have 3 on all) but the standard says 4ff/1off for the hazards in MV or 15 personnel (on engines).

So more undermanned engines is not the answer. Fewer properly staffed rigs is the answer. Fire trucks do not put out fires, firefighters do. In addition to the standards, look at the NIOSH studies that show few better staffed rigs are much more effective.

2) Good question, who knows best? Most of your recent post indicate that those that work in many depts. do not know. And since the local depts. are not meeting the standards, and you state they don't have enough rigs (I say they don't have enough staff). How can you say the "pencil pushers" who set those standards don't know better than those working there?

3) SInce no one can meet your definition, that logic would mean no one should sign it.

"We must hang together, gentlemen...else, we shall most assuredly hang separately." - Benjamin Franklin

4) As long as there is "home rule" their will always be abuses by some communities. YFD does not write the card that MVFD submits, if MVFD puts them #6 (not exactly last in a county with 59 depts.) that's where they sit. YFD has stated they will stay as long as needed at the fire, but standing by in a station with unmanned spares they will give the dept enough time to perform a call back and staff them. If dept. policy is not to do a call back, then YFD is well within their rights to have such a policy

5) Since almost everyone is abusing the plan, kind of tough to get them to complain about exactly what they themselves are doing. I have heard for 30 years how if we keep fighting for proper staffing that someday we will have it and all thru that time we keep shrinking. Consolidation is the best chance of correcting the situation, but too many would rather keep complaining and hoping that we will go back to the good old days.

Who in God's name is reporting 67, 896 first of all? When was that census taken 1950? Completely false!! As far as fewer Companies with more staffing on each I have a problem with that too and never mind what NIOSH thinks. Again they are not the ones actually performing Fire Suppression, they're only making suggestions from so called studies. Was never a big fan of robbing Peter to pay Paul and putting rigs oos to increase the staffing on others. Ive witnessed on numerous occasions a 3man Engine Co(Off/2FF) do an outstanding Job and do just as much as a 4 man Co preventing a Job becoming greater then it was. Did NIOSH and OSHA ever take into consideration that FDs due more then just wait around for the Big One. Are they aware FD's now respond on EMS; stuck elevators; car accidents; water leaks; gas leaks; CO investigations; Lockouts; etc.etc.etc. You say 4(4 man) Engines and 2(4 man ) trucks(24 total) is enough for a City like MT.Vernon because Equipment doesn't put out fires men do. So what happens when 2 of those Engines are out on EMS runs( more so then often) and 1 Truck is out on a stuck elevator or CO investigation( very good possibility and also happens quite often)? Now you have 2 Engines and 1 Ladder responding to a structure fire with 12 guys, less the 2 MPO's and now your down to 10. Is that enough? How about we play the same scenario out with 5 Engines(3man) and 3 Ladders(3man). Granted, you would only have 3 more for a total of 13(15 less 2MPOs) but like I said earlier Ive seen 3 men do a lot and I think it's allot better then 10 but surely still inadequate obviously. Not to mention the more rigs you have the more security your provided in case something happens to one of your apparatus while responding or while there, whether it be mechanical, mva while enroute, frozen hydrant, etc etc. which Im sure we've all experienced on more then one occasion. Personally speaking Id rather have more apps. with less manpower as a Duty Officer then less apps. with more manpower. Im at a better advantage and can use my extra equipment as I see fit. The more toys I feel you have in your back pocket to play with the better off not only will your members be but the citizens we took an oath to protect. The more apps you have the more calls you can cover and won't find yourself shorthanded scrambling for resources when the s*** hits the fan. If I was a Duty Officer and given a roster of 28 men and told to place them where I see fit I would actually rather see 6 Engines(3man) and 3 Trucks(3man) then say 4 Engines(5 man) and 2 Trucks(4man). Again JMO, but Im really getting tired of people who aren't out on the front lines and conducting studies telling those of us who are actually in the trenches how to run things. Once again this horse has been beaten enough so Im tapping out.

[Bnechis 3,961]

1)Who in God's name is reporting 67, 896 first of all? When was that census taken 1950? Completely false!!

2) As far as fewer Companies with more staffing on each I have a problem with that too and never mind what NIOSH thinks. Again they are not the ones actually performing Fire Suppression, they're only making suggestions from so called studies. Was never a big fan of robbing Peter to pay Paul and putting rigs oos to increase the staffing on others. Ive witnessed on numerous occasions a 3man Engine Co(Off/2FF) do an outstanding Job and do just as much as a 4 man Co preventing a Job becoming greater then it was. Did NIOSH and OSHA ever take into consideration that FDs due more then just wait around for the Big One. Are they aware FD's now respond on EMS; stuck elevators; car accidents; water leaks; gas leaks; CO investigations; Lockouts; etc.etc.etc. You say 4(4 man) Engines and 2(4 man ) trucks(24 total) is enough for a City like MT.Vernon because Equipment doesn't put out fires men do. So what happens when 2 of those Engines are out on EMS runs( more so then often) and 1 Truck is out on a stuck elevator or CO investigation( very good possibility and also happens quite often)? Now you have 2 Engines and 1 Ladder responding to a structure fire with 12 guys, less the 2 MPO's and now your down to 10. Is that enough? How about we play the same scenario out with 5 Engines(3man) and 3 Ladders(3man). Granted, you would only have 3 more for a total of 13(15 less 2MPOs) but like I said earlier Ive seen 3 men do a lot and I think it's allot better then 10 but surely still inadequate obviously. Not to mention the more rigs you have the more security your provided in case something happens to one of your apparatus while responding or while there, whether it be mechanical, mva while enroute, frozen hydrant, etc etc. which Im sure we've all experienced on more then one occasion. Personally speaking Id rather have more apps. with less manpower as a Duty Officer then less apps. with more manpower. Im at a better advantage and can use my extra equipment as I see fit. The more toys I feel you have in your back pocket to play with the better off not only will your members be but the citizens we took an oath to protect. The more apps you have the more calls you can cover and won't find yourself shorthanded scrambling for resources when the s*** hits the fan. If I was a Duty Officer and given a roster of 28 men and told to place them where I see fit I would actually rather see 6 Engines(3man) and 3 Trucks(3man) then say 4 Engines(5 man) and 2 Trucks(4man).

3) Again JMO, but Im really getting tired of people who aren't out on the front lines and conducting studies telling those of us who are actually in the trenches how to run things. Once again this horse has been beaten enough so Im tapping out.

1) The US Census 2010 (with 2012 supplemental). The City of Mt Vernon Website claims 70,000+ in multiple locations

2) You started off by adding rigs with fewer ff's than I said the standard calls for then using that to try to justify your position. If the flexibility of more rigs is so important, then why not 1 man rigs? MVFD could have 20 on the street.

Wow...we really do all those things? I never would have considered that we do anything other than fire Thanks for pointing that out.

NIOSH only measured the results that experienced fire suppression personnel did, maybe you should try to understand what they did, and why they did it was because the IAFF wanted to proved that staffing matters and that too many depts. do not have enough personnel per rig.

While 3 man companies often do a spectacular job, their is no way they can do better than a comparable trained 4 man crew. Often the 3 man crew is really a 1 man crew, as the driver is at the pump and the officer should be an officer and if he is pulling hose, he is not doing his job.

3) Your right all those chiefs in major depts. around the world who have studied this don't know what you do because they are no longer "in the trenches". FDNY should go to twice as many 3 man companies, because the guys in the trenches know it all. All over Great Britain & Germany Engines run with minimum of 6 and they have much better construction and fire prevention than we do. Paris runs 8 man engines..........but what do they know....

Studies performed by Dallas, Providence, NYC, and others must all be wrong because you've been there and done that.

Sorry this tapped you out. Most of the world works this way, but here in the north east we can see past the walls that surround every square mile.

[antiquefirelt 994]

Ive witnessed on numerous occasions a 3man Engine Co(Off/2FF) do an outstanding Job and do just as much as a 4 man Co preventing a Job becoming greater then it was.

I understand we often are frustrated with the hand we're dealt, but when firefighters are making statements like this, the problem will never get better. Show me a three man engine that can perform as well as a 4 man engine, I'll show you a poorly lead 4 man engine. Not saying a three man engine can't be outstanding and save the day, they do far too often, but add a fourth member to those three? I think you'd see even better stops faster?

[TimesUp 148]

If the waterfront property is in naples let me know. That land is hard to come by. #veryinterested

[tommyguy 104]

E4 is in service everyday. As far as what spares they might of had in addition I can't say.

But it wasn't E4 that was reported to be working in Yonkers the other night. It was E204.

[FirNaTine 370]

I understand we often are frustrated with the hand we're dealt, but when firefighters are making statements like this, the problem will never get better. Show me a three man engine that can perform as well as a 4 man engine, I'll show you a poorly lead 4 man engine. Not saying a three man engine can't be outstanding and save the day, they do far too often, but add a fourth member to those three? I think you'd see even better stops faster?

Even if that 4th man is a block or two away making a hydrant because their SOP is a Forward Lay? In which the 4 man Engine now becomes a 3 man Engine or like Barry said a 1 man Engine if the Officer is being an officer and not helping the one backstep man stretch line.

[FirNaTine 370]

1) The US Census 2010 (with 2012 supplemental). The City of Mt Vernon Website claims 70,000+ in multiple locations

2) You started off by adding rigs with fewer ff's than I said the standard calls for then using that to try to justify your position. If the flexibility of more rigs is so important, then why not 1 man rigs? MVFD could have 20 on the street.

Wow...we really do all those things? I never would have considered that we do anything other than fire Thanks for pointing that out.

NIOSH only measured the results that experienced fire suppression personnel did, maybe you should try to understand what they did, and why they did it was because the IAFF wanted to proved that staffing matters and that too many depts. do not have enough personnel per rig.

While 3 man companies often do a spectacular job, their is no way they can do better than a comparable trained 4 man crew. Often the 3 man crew is really a 1 man crew, as the driver is at the pump and the officer should be an officer and if he is pulling hose, he is not doing his job.

3) Your right all those chiefs in major depts. around the world who have studied this don't know what you do because they are no longer "in the trenches". FDNY should go to twice as many 3 man companies, because the guys in the trenches know it all. All over Great Britain & Germany Engines run with minimum of 6 and they have much better construction and fire prevention than we do. Paris runs 8 man engines..........but what do they know....

Studies performed by Dallas, Providence, NYC, and others must all be wrong because you've been there and done that.

Sorry this tapped you out. Most of the world works this way, but here in the north east we can see past the walls that surround every square mile.

Oh stop Barry, now your just being silly! 20 one man rigs. Your really stretching it now Pal. Besides don't worry about GB and Germany, if they're like other European Nations they think we US FFs are crazy for doing interior attacks anyway. 6 guys on a rig? What's their top salary? Let'em make what guys here make and they'll drop their numbers. Anyway hope you have a very Happy and Healthy New Year there Capt! Nothing wrong with agreeing to disagree.

[FirNaTine 370]

But it wasn't E4 that was reported to be working in Yonkers the other night. It was E204.

Maybe it's their assigned County Number?

[tommyguy 104]

Oh okay I got you. I thought their county number would've been lower than that. Yes I guess that is their county number. Thanks.

[Bnechis 3,961]

Even if that 4th man is a block or two away making a hydrant because their SOP is a Forward Lay? In which the 4 man Engine now becomes a 3 man Engine or like Barry said a 1 man Engine if the Officer is being an officer and not helping the one backstep man stretch line.

Yes even if the 4th man is at the hydrant, because now you have a 3 man engine with a water supply vs. a 3 man engine without. This also frees up the next engine (3 or 4 man) to not have to establish the 1st water supply and they can go right to work.

Since we use to have 4 (and when I started, occasionally 5 man engines) and have gone to 3, one big problem has been in standpipe buildings.

With 4 - the driver would stay outside to supply the Siamese

the officer would find the fire apt. and often determine the layout from the floor below

the 2 FF's would flake out the line, nozzle man would go to the nozzle and hydrant man would control the wheel.

the officer & nozzle man would advance the line and once flow was established the hydrant man would chase the kinks and relieve the officer in backing up the nozzle man.

Now with 3 - The driver is still in the street, the officer helps flake the line and does not do his job. When ready to charge the line the officer has to man the wheel and let the nozzle man advance the line by himself (violating OSHA 29CFR1910.134). Now when the nozzle man is a probie, the officer will often take the nozzle and send the nozzle man to get the wheel, so he is not sending the rookie in alone.

[Bnechis 3,961]

1) Oh stop Barry, now your just being silly! 20 one man rigs. Your really stretching it now Pal.

2) Besides don't worry about GB and Germany, if they're like other European Nations they think we US FFs are crazy for doing interior attacks anyway. 6 guys on a rig? What's their top salary? Let'em make what guys here make and they'll drop their numbers.

3) Anyway hope you have a very Happy and Healthy New Year there Capt! Nothing wrong with agreeing to disagree.

1) Just trying to prove your point. BTW, Cant stretch well with one man engines....need some help

2) In part that's because they have all non-combustible structures, changes the tactics. I have friends in a number of European FB's (Fire Brigades) and they say they would never accept the low pay we work for. After comparing the actual numbers they tend to fall above our average, but below our highest paid (who are often the ones with understaffed rigs).

3) Thank you. You too.

[JFLYNN 681]

Who in God's name is reporting 67, 896 first of all? When was that census taken 1950? Completely false!! As far as fewer Companies with more staffing on each I have a problem with that too and never mind what NIOSH thinks. Again they are not the ones actually performing Fire Suppression, they're only making suggestions from so called studies. Was never a big fan of robbing Peter to pay Paul and putting rigs oos to increase the staffing on others. Ive witnessed on numerous occasions a 3man Engine Co(Off/2FF) do an outstanding Job and do just as much as a 4 man Co preventing a Job becoming greater then it was. Did NIOSH and OSHA ever take into consideration that FDs due more then just wait around for the Big One. Are they aware FD's now respond on EMS; stuck elevators; car accidents; water leaks; gas leaks; CO investigations; Lockouts; etc.etc.etc. You say 4(4 man) Engines and 2(4 man ) trucks(24 total) is enough for a City like MT.Vernon because Equipment doesn't put out fires men do. So what happens when 2 of those Engines are out on EMS runs( more so then often) and 1 Truck is out on a stuck elevator or CO investigation( very good possibility and also happens quite often)? Now you have 2 Engines and 1 Ladder responding to a structure fire with 12 guys, less the 2 MPO's and now your down to 10. Is that enough? How about we play the same scenario out with 5 Engines(3man) and 3 Ladders(3man). Granted, you would only have 3 more for a total of 13(15 less 2MPOs) but like I said earlier Ive seen 3 men do a lot and I think it's allot better then 10 but surely still inadequate obviously. Not to mention the more rigs you have the more security your provided in case something happens to one of your apparatus while responding or while there, whether it be mechanical, mva while enroute, frozen hydrant, etc etc. which Im sure we've all experienced on more then one occasion. Personally speaking Id rather have more apps. with less manpower as a Duty Officer then less apps. with more manpower. Im at a better advantage and can use my extra equipment as I see fit. The more toys I feel you have in your back pocket to play with the better off not only will your members be but the citizens we took an oath to protect. The more apps you have the more calls you can cover and won't find yourself shorthanded scrambling for resources when the s*** hits the fan. If I was a Duty Officer and given a roster of 28 men and told to place them where I see fit I would actually rather see 6 Engines(3man) and 3 Trucks(3man) then say 4 Engines(5 man) and 2 Trucks(4man). Again JMO, but Im really getting tired of people who aren't out on the front lines and conducting studies telling those of us who are actually in the trenches how to run things. Once again this horse has been beaten enough so Im tapping out.

No offense, Seth, but posts such as this one are a perfect example of why I rarely post here anymore and also why I recommend to our young guys that they use this site and other similar sites solely for entertainment and local incident alerts only. For the purpose of fire service education and intelligent discourse that is vetted and edited by credible experts, stick to the edited fire service journals and websites published by such entities as Fire Engineering, Fire Chief, Fire Rescue, Firehouse, WNYF, NFPA, NIOSH, NFA, FEMA, and fire service textbooks. There are many experienced, educated, intelligent, and reasonable individuals who post on here, however there is also an incredible amount of disinformation and outright falsehoods / nonsense. For our newer fire service membership (which we have very many of currently in YFD) who may not yet have learned which sources are credible and which are not, take what you read here with a healthy dose of skepticism. Oh, and QTIP....

[CFI609D 119]

But it wasn't E4 that was reported to be working in Yonkers the other night. It was E204.

E204 is its Westchester County designation. FDMV has WCDES designations for engines 201 through 207, and ladders 61-64.

[61MACKBR1 222]

No offense, Seth, but posts such as this one are a perfect example of why I rarely post here anymore and also why I recommend to our young guys that they use this site and other similar sites solely for entertainment and local incident alerts only. For the purpose of fire service education and intelligent discourse that is vetted and edited by credible experts, stick to the edited fire service journals and websites published by such entities as Fire Engineering, Fire Chief, Fire Rescue, Firehouse, WNYF, NFPA, NIOSH, NFA, FEMA, and fire service textbooks. There are many experienced, educated, intelligent, and reasonable individuals who post on here, however there is also an incredible amount of disinformation and outright falsehoods / nonsense. For our newer fire service membership (which we have very many of currently in YFD) who may not yet have learned which sources are credible and which are not, take what you read here with a healthy dose of skepticism. Oh, and QTIP....

Good Morning Chief Flynn:

Just a few questions to a very respected Firefighter Professional in Westchester County:

1) I know that you were, for a Long Time, Captain on Rescue 1. Can you let me know what company you were assigned to when you first came out of the Fire Academy?

2) Are there plans to place the rig on Engine 313 (The oldest in service rig in the fleet)?

3) What are your thoughts and opinions related to the "studied" concept of Regionalizing the Fire Service, at minimum, in Southern Westchester County? Could a combined department of say, Yonkers, Mount Vernon, Eastchester, New Rochelle, Pelham and Pelham Manor work. Knowing the vast amount of Apparatus, Equipment, and Resources that both Yonkers and New Rochelle has, that could be shared under a Regional Department Concept, with departments that are currently less fortunate (ie: Mount Vernon) could serve to allow for a more effective and quicker deployment of resources, without any need of a Mutual Aid Program. Your thoughts on this?

4) Knowing that YFD, currently is running its Management Offices out of the offices next door to the SOD, does this building/location carry any pieces of memorabilia from the History of the Department? (What are the latest plans of ever coming up with a Yonkers Fire Department Museum, at least as close to what the Yonkers Police Department has)?

Much thanks and appreciation Chief !!!

[Dinosaur 844]

I hope that nobody is seriously arguing that a three man engine can do as much work as effectively or efficiently as a four or five man engine. That's disingenuous and really does us all a disservice.

How about those communities with one or two man engines? How effective are they? How effective in comparison to a three or four man engine?

How about ladder companies? Let's go back to what is one of the primary responsibilities of a truck crew? Is it Search and Rescue? What happens when there are two guys on a ladder and they encounter two or more victims in need of assistance? Wouldn't it be nice to have four guys there to help 'em out?

If you're going to actually say that a three person engine is "good enough", please don't become an officer or administrator.

Sooner or later this house of cards that is built in the Hudson Valley region is going to come crumbling down and people are going to hear that for years we've known the service is inadequate, understaffed, and overworked.

[FirNaTine 370]

1) Just trying to prove your point. BTW, Cant stretch well with one man engines....need some help

2) In part that's because they have all non-combustible structures, changes the tactics. I have friends in a number of European FB's (Fire Brigades) and they say they would never accept the low pay we work for. After comparing the actual numbers they tend to fall above our average, but below our highest paid (who are often the ones with understaffed rigs).

3) Thank you. You too.

Well s*** then Im transferring to Europe! That's awesome!

[antiquefirelt 994]

Even if that 4th man is a block or two away making a hydrant because their SOP is a Forward Lay? In which the 4 man Engine now becomes a 3 man Engine or like Barry said a 1 man Engine if the Officer is being an officer and not helping the one backstep man stretch line.

So that engine company has a sustained water supply much faster? The downside is? Sounds like maybe you're lamenting over other issues besides the numbers on any given piece.

[gpeifer 89]

How did this post, originally about a great job done by all, including the rescue of ten people in below freezing temperatures become a diatribe about everything except the job. I was surprised to even see a post about a yonkers fire since the incident alert section has not posted many of our jobs the past few months.

[JFLYNN 681]

Good Morning Chief Flynn:

Just a few questions to a very respected Firefighter Professional in Westchester County:

1) I know that you were, for a Long Time, Captain on Rescue 1. Can you let me know what company you were assigned to when you first came out of the Fire Academy?

2) Are there plans to place the rig on Engine 313 (The oldest in service rig in the fleet)?

3) What are your thoughts and opinions related to the "studied" concept of Regionalizing the Fire Service, at minimum, in Southern Westchester County? Could a combined department of say, Yonkers, Mount Vernon, Eastchester, New Rochelle, Pelham and Pelham Manor work. Knowing the vast amount of Apparatus, Equipment, and Resources that both Yonkers and New Rochelle has, that could be shared under a Regional Department Concept, with departments that are currently less fortunate (ie: Mount Vernon) could serve to allow for a more effective and quicker deployment of resources, without any need of a Mutual Aid Program. Your thoughts on this?

4) Knowing that YFD, currently is running its Management Offices out of the offices next door to the SOD, does this building/location carry any pieces of memorabilia from the History of the Department? (What are the latest plans of ever coming up with a Yonkers Fire Department Museum, at least as close to what the Yonkers Police Department has)?

Much thanks and appreciation Chief !!!

I would rather not answer any questions about myself on this thread. As gpeifer mentioned it was originally about a fantastic job our members did on a very busy and frigid night, surely saving multiple lives and mitigating property damage, and I would hope it might focus on its original intent. As far as 313- apparatus is not my division and I would rather not get into that, and as far as regionalization / consolidation- I am for it under the right circumstances but again, this is not the correct thread to discuss that. I will keep an eye on this site over the next week or so, and if a thread pops up with regionalization / consolidation as the topic I will consider chiming in. Same thing for the memorabilia / museum question- this is not the appropriate thread to discuss that.

I would like to keep the attention on the great work that our members did on the night in question, as well as during numerous other working fires so far this winter (most of which were not reported on in the IA section here) . Notably, the skilled and dedicated firefighting operations that took place on the night of the 2 jobs that this thread initially focused on was done by a force comprised of 1 in 6 firefighters with only a week or so out of the academy, and another 30+ with less than a year on the job, and many of the bosses very new in their current rank, I was not at all involved with the operations on that night, but I am very proud of the excellent work that was done by our members and the attention should be on them in this thread.

[61MACKBR1 222]

I would rather not answer any questions about myself on this thread. As gpeifer mentioned it was originally about a fantastic job our members did on a very busy and frigid night, surely saving multiple lives and mitigating property damage, and I would hope it might focus on its original intent. As far as 313- apparatus is not my division and I would rather not get into that, and as far as regionalization / consolidation- I am for it under the right circumstances but again, this is not the correct thread to discuss that. I will keep an eye on this site over the next week or so, and if a thread pops up with regionalization / consolidation as the topic I will consider chiming in. Same thing for the memorabilia / museum question- this is not the appropriate thread to discuss that.

I would like to keep the attention on the great work that our members did on the night in question, as well as during numerous other working fires so far this winter (most of which were not reported on in the IA section here) . Notably, the skilled and dedicated firefighting operations that took place on the night of the 2 jobs that this thread initially focused on was done by a force comprised of 1 in 6 firefighters with only a week or so out of the academy, and another 30+ with less than a year on the job, and many of the bosses very new in their current rank, I was not at all involved with the operations on that night, but I am very proud of the excellent work that was done by our members and the attention should be on them in this thread.

Chief Flynn - I sent you a PM on these questions (Thanks in advance for the response)

As it relates to the original intention of this thread - Great Job by the staff of the Yonkers Fire Department for a job well done.

To everyone who responded to the thread (and to all the member of EMTBravo). "Stay Positive When Posting, Stay Professional When Posting, Be Thankful For Everyone Within The Service [be it Police, Fire and/or EMS}, Be Appreciative For The Input Provided, Be Respectful To All [no matter what their respective backgrounds and opinions are], and Remember to Check Your Egos At The Door before posting"

If everyone follows this, we will all be the better for it.

Edited January 12, 2014 by 61MACKBR1

[FirNaTine 370]

So that engine company has a sustained water supply much faster? The downside is? Sounds like maybe you're lamenting over other issues besides the numbers on any given piece.

Nobody's lamenting over anything. How about doing a "Reverse Lay" like FDNY who everyone always makes reference to and praises and letting the MPO make the hydrant and having your 2nd backstep men, if you have the wishful thinking of 4 on a Rig, pull the hose and the Officer act as an Officer? No reason the MPO can't make the water supply, instead of having the 2nd back step man make the hydrant. Something tells me he'd be better off ifo the fire building stretching hose no? Or is doing a "Forward Lay" Job Security for some Depts. and that justifies 4 on a Rig?

Edited January 13, 2014 by FirNaTine

[FirNaTine 370]

Yes even if the 4th man is at the hydrant, because now you have a 3 man engine with a water supply vs. a 3 man engine without. This also frees up the next engine (3 or 4 man) to not have to establish the 1st water supply and they can go right to work.

Since we use to have 4 (and when I started, occasionally 5 man engines) and have gone to 3, one big problem has been in standpipe buildings.

With 4 - the driver would stay outside to supply the Siamese

the officer would find the fire apt. and often determine the layout from the floor below

the 2 FF's would flake out the line, nozzle man would go to the nozzle and hydrant man would control the wheel.

the officer & nozzle man would advance the line and once flow was established the hydrant man would chase the kinks and relieve the officer in backing up the nozzle man.

Now with 3 - The driver is still in the street, the officer helps flake the line and does not do his job. When ready to charge the line the officer has to man the wheel and let the nozzle man advance the line by himself (violating OSHA 29CFR1910.134). Now when the nozzle man is a probie, the officer will often take the nozzle and send the nozzle man to get the wheel, so he is not sending the rookie in alone.

Completely Wrong! Go to a Reverse Lay like FDNY everybody's Heroes on here. Let the MPO make the hydrant for God's sake especially if you have a 4 man Engine and let the Officer be an Officer and have 2 Back step men pull the hose. Not the 4th guy 100-250 ft down the street worry about water supply and then have to high tail it down to the fire building. WTF! It's common sense fellows! Maybe if you had the MPO at the Hydrant, Depts. wouldn't have to worry about the Hydrant Gremlins shutting off hydrants like they did to NRFD on I believe, Fountain Pl?

Edited January 13, 2014 by FirNaTine

[FirNaTine 370]

Yes even if the 4th man is at the hydrant, because now you have a 3 man engine with a water supply vs. a 3 man engine without. This also frees up the next engine (3 or 4 man) to not have to establish the 1st water supply and they can go right to work.

Since we use to have 4 (and when I started, occasionally 5 man engines) and have gone to 3, one big problem has been in standpipe buildings.

With 4 - the driver would stay outside to supply the Siamese

the officer would find the fire apt. and often determine the layout from the floor below

the 2 FF's would flake out the line, nozzle man would go to the nozzle and hydrant man would control the wheel.

the officer & nozzle man would advance the line and once flow was established the hydrant man would chase the kinks and relieve the officer in backing up the nozzle man.

Now with 3 - The driver is still in the street, the officer helps flake the line and does not do his job. When ready to charge the line the officer has to man the wheel and let the nozzle man advance the line by himself (violating OSHA 29CFR1910.134). Now when the nozzle man is a probie, the officer will often take the nozzle and send the nozzle man to get the wheel, so he is not sending the rookie in alone.

Huh? And what are the 2nd and 3rd due Engines doing? Never heard anything so crazy! Better ask NIOSH what they would do.

[antiquefirelt 994]

Nobody's lamenting over anything. How about doing a "Reverse Lay" like FDNY who everyone always makes reference to and praises and letting the MPO make the hydrant and having your 2 backstep men if you have the wishful thinking of 4 on a Rig pull the hose and the Officer act as an Officer? Or is doing a "Forward Lay" Job Security for some Depts. and that justifies 4 on a Rig?

That was my point. Clearly you're indicating that a change in how things are done might better serve your department in the short term. Arguing that a fourth firefighter would do "no good" or implying it would be of little help is foolhardy regardless of which way you lay your supply. Closing companies to spread firefighter around to attain the staffing level may not be the answer, but 4 will beat 3 every day of the week.

[FirNaTine 370]

That was my point. Clearly you're indicating that a change in how things are done might better serve your department in the short term. Arguing that a fourth firefighter would do "no good" or implying it would be of little help is foolhardy regardless of which way you lay your supply. Closing companies to spread firefighter around to attain the staffing level may not be the answer, but 4 will beat 3 every day of the week.

First of all Im not, nor did I ever advocate reducing manning or close companies . In fact I really don't know where that notion ever came from?. Whether I have 3 or 4 guys on a rig I personally believe a reverse lay is better, especially if you have 4 guys on an Engine. Drop all 3 off ifo the f/b and have the MPO take off to the hydrant and let him worry about the water supply as two guys are pulling hose and the Officer is being an Officer. I think this is a little more rational then having 1 guy hooking up to a hydrant why the Engine is down the block with one guy stretching and the Officer off and running and being an Officer like he's suppose to no?

Edited January 13, 2014 by FirNaTine

[gpeifer 89]

@firnatime....Are you volly or career? Just curious because your profile is vague. Maybe if we knew who you were your post might be more meaniful. Bnechis is respected fire officer in a career department and im sure has seen more fire than you have. If we all had 5 man engine companies (like FDNY) or put 50 FF on a first alarm (like FDNY) than none of this would be a concern. We don't and can't. I think you need to take a look at FDNY history. Reverse stretch is not done because its better at every job, it's done to make room for the trucks because space is an issue.

[firefighter-70 27]

@firnatime....Are you volly or career? Just curious because your profile is vague. Maybe if we knew who you were your post might be more meaniful. Bnechis is respected fire officer in a career department and im sure has seen more fire than you have. If we all had 5 man engine companies (like FDNY) or put 50 FF on a first alarm (like FDNY) than none of this would be a concern. We don't and can't. I think you need to take a look at FDNY history. Reverse stretch is not done because its better at every job, it's done to make room for the trucks because space is an issue.

Bnechis knows FirNaTine, and probably knows that FirNaTine has been in just as many fires if not more then he, will let Barry answer that. Reverse lay and forward lay both have pros and cons, I think we can agree on that.

[FirNaTine 370]

@firnatime....Are you volly or career? Just curious because your profile is vague. Maybe if we knew who you were your post might be more meaniful. Bnechis is respected fire officer in a career department and im sure has seen more fire than you have. If we all had 5 man engine companies (like FDNY) or put 50 FF on a first alarm (like FDNY) than none of this would be a concern. We don't and can't. I think you need to take a look at FDNY history. Reverse stretch is not done because its better at every job, it's done to make room for the trucks because space is an issue.

LMAO! Now that's some funny s*** right there! What's next my mother can beat up your mother? Oh and btw nobody ever said Bnechis wasn't a respected Officer. Im sure he is and good for him and his Dept.. All I did was post my thoughts on a topic and all of a sudden the daggers came out. Especially from folks who haven't been on here in awhile. WTF! I can't have an opinion on something without people criticizing my view points? I didn't throw the first stone and ill be damned if Im going to sit back and be made a fool of just because I see things differently. Not every Dept. follows the same protocol nor should they but at least respect another person's point of view!

Edited January 13, 2014 by FirNaTine

[Bnechis 3,961]

Nobody's lamenting over anything. How about doing a "Reverse Lay" like FDNY who everyone always makes reference to and praises and letting the MPO make the hydrant and having your 2nd backstep men, if you have the wishful thinking of 4 on a Rig, pull the hose and the Officer act as an Officer? No reason the MPO can't make the water supply, instead of having the 2nd back step man make the hydrant. Something tells me he'd be better off ifo the fire building stretching hose no? Or is doing a "Forward Lay" Job Security for some Depts. and that justifies 4 on a Rig?

Completely Wrong! Go to a Reverse Lay like FDNY everybody's Heroes on here. Let the MPO make the hydrant for God's sake especially if you have a 4 man Engine and let the Officer be an Officer and have 2 Back step men pull the hose. Not the 4th guy 100-250 ft down the street worry about water supply and then have to high tail it down to the fire building. WTF! It's common sense fellows! Maybe if you had the MPO at the Hydrant, Depts. wouldn't have to worry about the Hydrant Gremlins shutting off hydrants like they did to NRFD on I believe, Fountain Pl?

So FDNY ONLY does Reverse Lay? Just because they don't call it forward lay (in line pumping) does not mean it the only way they do it. We do both forward and reverse and have been doing it since we had 5 man engines, So its clearly not for job security.

If you only need one or 2 lines the reverse lay works just fine, but once you need more, you end up having to do massive hand stretches to do. Something that works well only if you have a number of engine companies with lots of manpower on each.

Many depts. that do reverse lays are getting 250-300 gpm out of their 1,500gpm pumps, not very efficient.

Earlier this year I went mutual aid to a scene that started as a house fire, but quickly spread to both exposure 2 & 4. The homes were in the middle of a long narrow street. The dept. did two 500 foot reverse lays out from the scene to the hydrants at the next corner (one to one corner, the other to the intersection in the opposite direction). The positioned 2 ladders in front of the buildings. This worked great when they need 900gpm from a couple of hand lines. Because they always do reverse they did not use the hydrant directly across the street (it would have required a 50' back stretch). Once they needed to boost the flow by 2,000 gpm (with 2 ladder pipes) they had no way to do it. The IC asked me to establish a water source. We found the next closest hydrant on the block behind the fire block, forwarded laid 200 ft of 5in LDH, then hand back stretch 600-700 ft up over a 6' wall, thru two yards (luckily the fence had been knocked down in a storm), then up the block to the ladder that was in front of the non used hydrant. 1,300 -1,500gpm to the ladder pipes.

Wow so 1 fire in the last 40+ years had an issue with hydrant "gremlins" well that's a good reason to stop using our pumpers to maximum ability.