Why do so few NY Depts have 1st responder Ice/ Cold water entry capability?

[Monty 35]

Maybe I am just wrong - it's often the case

But, I don't believe there are very many departments in NY, (at least Westchester area) that have the capability to go out on the ice. On the other hand, most of the departments in Connecticut seem to have ice rescue capability. My department has 2 suits (see below), noodle, rope bags, life vests (and some other items) on our 3 front line apparatus.

This past weekend I heard a page for one of the departments (Montrose maybe) ice rescue team being put on standby. In this case, I'm not sure anything more came of it. How much time is it going to take to get them where they're needed?

I would think for a still body of water (ie not a river), that with some basic training, proper PPE, this is a low risk, medium frequency type of event that more departments should be able to do.

Just wondering .....

[dashield 61]

I can't speak for Westchester, but in Orange County I would make an educated guess that at least half of the departments have ice/cold water rescue capabilities. If a department does not have the training or equipment I can guarantee that at least of their neighboring departments does.

In my department we have a 14 suits and an extensive inventory of other associated equipment.

[FireMedic049 597]

I can't speak to why the departments in your area don't have the equipment, but ice rescue is a form of technical rescue and many departments aren't adequately equipped and trained for technical rescue.

Ice rescue can easily be a high risk event, but with the proper training, equipment and adequate personnel that risk can be minimized, just like firefighting. To do it properly requires more than just "basic training".

[newsbuff 286]

It was Continental Village's ice rescue team, and they were on standby for Peekskill's polar plunge.

[Morningjoe 162]

Yorktown has a water rescue truck with quite the compliment of Dive/swift water and ice rescue capabilities. Last year, along with Somers FD and the NYSP helicopter, they rescued 3 civilians trapped/fallen through the ice off Rt 100 in Somers.

As far as I know, most departments have the equipment, and the trained personnel, just not designated water rescue apparatus. Equipment may be stored on engines, ladders or rescues, just depends on the department

[Monty 35]

Good info here. There are more departments with this capability than I was aware of. Although I know my volunteeer department doesn't have an entry capability to any water / ice incident. We do have the reach and throw capabilities. I'm pretty sure that none of our immediate neighboring departments do either. In our case YHFD would seem to be the obvious call - and they've been called plenty of times for other incidents, so there certainly wouldn't be an issue with that.

I can't speak to why the departments in your area don't have the equipment, but ice rescue is a form of technical rescue and many departments aren't adequately equipped and trained for technical rescue.

Ice rescue can easily be a high risk event, but with the proper training, equipment and adequate personnel that risk can be minimized, just like firefighting. To do it properly requires more than just "basic training".

Anything we do can be high risk - getting off apparatus. At my academy, we had a lesson on this - because there have been fatalities. Yes, it is a technical rescue discipline. I see that there are one day NFPA compliant courses for Ice Rescue Technician. I wouldn't put that in the same category of risk as Trench Rescue for example.

Certainly, proper equipment is needed - and like anything in this business it's not cheap.

So, as lax as NY training standards are, is this a case where Ice Rescue teams are better trained in NY than elsewhere? Or is it just that Ice Rescue doesn't happen often enough that it is a high priority in all the things we do need to be trained in.

[38ff 250]

OFPC puts on a great Ice Rescue class thru the full time instructors they have that travel around the state. It's free, all you need to do is contact OFPC. Great class.

[STAT213 332]

Ice rescue, while seeming to be daunting, is a fairly straight forward procedure, that when undertaken properly is no more risky than anything else we do.

Equipment, training and procedures are key. Get those things squared away, and you'll be successful.

[MoFire390 118]

Montrose also has a Ice water rescue team. 25 members trained and certified. 6 suits sled and capabilities to assist departments who are willing to learn.

[FireMedic049 597]

Anything we do can be high risk - getting off apparatus. At my academy, we had a lesson on this - because there have been fatalities. Yes, it is a technical rescue discipline. I see that there arey NFPA compliant courses for Ice Rescue Technician. I wouldn't put that in the same category of risk as Trench Rescue for example.

Certainly, proper equipment is needed - and like anything in this business it's not cheap.

So, as lax as NY training standards are, is this a case where Ice Rescue teams are better trained in NY than elsewhere? Or is it just that Ice Rescue doesn't happen often enough that it is a high priority in all the things we do need to be trained in.

Actually, everything we do has risk, but not necessarily "high risk". Getting off apparatus in and of itself is not a very risky activity. What increases the level of risk into the "high" category would be the environment in which the low risk activity occurs.

Getting off on a busy interstate is certainly far riskier than doing it in the station for obvious reasons, but that doesn't mean the activity itself is "high risk".

I wasn't making any attempt to rank ice rescue comparatively to other technical rescue disciplines. I was simply offering an explanation for the question asked. Many departments lack training and equipment to provide all forms of technical rescue, so maybe ice rescue is one that departments in that area aren't prepared for.

If you don't get many ice rescue calls, there's a good chance it may not be a priority for a department.

[Dinosaur 844]

Good info here. There are more departments with this capability than I was aware of. Although I know my volunteeer department doesn't have an entry capability to any water / ice incident. We do have the reach and throw capabilities. I'm pretty sure that none of our immediate neighboring departments do either. In our case YHFD would seem to be the obvious call - and they've been called plenty of times for other incidents, so there certainly wouldn't be an issue with that.

Anything we do can be high risk - getting off apparatus. At my academy, we had a lesson on this - because there have been fatalities. Yes, it is a technical rescue discipline. I see that there are one day NFPA compliant courses for Ice Rescue Technician. I wouldn't put that in the same category of risk as Trench Rescue for example.

Certainly, proper equipment is needed - and like anything in this business it's not cheap.

So, as lax as NY training standards are, is this a case where Ice Rescue teams are better trained in NY than elsewhere? Or is it just that Ice Rescue doesn't happen often enough that it is a high priority in all the things we do need to be trained in.

Sorry but I disagree. There are inherent risks in many things we do - and getting off the apparatus shouldn't be one of them - but our job is to manage the risk. We generally do a piss poor job of assessing and managing risk. If we did, there would be a lot more training and a lot less gum flapping!

STAT and FireMedic said it well. If you train personnel, equip them, and maintain the skills with drills, the risk is greatly reduced.

[Guest]

I'm heading up to Montour Falls for the Ice Rescue course next weekend (25-26 Jan), if anyone wants to car pool.

[antiquefirelt 994]

Having just completed our annual refresher on ice rescue this past Saturday I'll add what our discussion about the risks led to. Generally speaking with the proper training and maintenance of the equipment, the greatest risk of a surface ice/water rescue was the Code 3 response getting there. Using full Ice Commander Suits, helmets and 'creepers" as needed and operating in a safe manner consistent with the training and SOG's, the risks to the rescuers is pretty low. This is one area where the proper PPE really can have a huge impact on the risk.

[markmets415 524]

We just had a new suit demo's Saturday and the fire district approved the order for 2 of them, see the link, very very nice suit indeed, we are doing our ice rescue/cold water training on Saturday 2/1/14, if anyone wants to attend please IM here.

http://www.landfallnavigation.com/rs1000.html

link to class

https://www.facebook.com/events/227891437390363/?ref_newsfeed_story_type=regular

Edited January 16, 2014 by markmets415

[38ff 250]

Last year, we got an EXCELLENT 2 "very full day class" (not a "We say it is 5 hours, but its really 3 hours a day type of deal" class) put on by these guys. http://www.teamlgs.com/ Based right here in the Hudson Valley. They train teams all over the world in all sorts of water/ice based diving/rescue/etc.

[gpeifer 89]

Maybe I am just wrong - it's often the case

But, I don't believe there are very many departments in NY, (at least Westchester area) that have the capability to go out on the ice. On the other hand, most of the departments in Connecticut seem to have ice rescue capability. My department has 2 suits (see below), noodle, rope bags, life vests (and some other items) on our 3 front line apparatus.

This past weekend I heard a page for one of the departments (Montrose maybe) ice rescue team being put on standby. In this case, I'm not sure anything more came of it. How much time is it going to take to get them where they're needed?

I would think for a still body of water (ie not a river), that with some basic training, proper PPE, this is a low risk, medium frequency type of event that more departments should be able to do.

You have suits etc...but do you have training to perform a rescue without injuring yourselves. 2suits? Not enough. Maybe to run out onto the ice but what happens when their is a need for someone else to come get you?

We have 12 suits on 3 trained companies, 12 more at our Special Operations Division, as well as Ocean ID boats designed for water rescue, including ice emergencies.

Just wondering .....

[Monty 35]

We staff 3 front line rigs - all have two suits, PFDs, 'noodles' and multiple lines as well as other equipment. We also have a qualified FD/PD dive team with cold water capabilities. Certainly we're not as equipped as the City of Yonkers - but for a small suburban town, I'd say yes we are trained and equipped for initial first response and to get resources on the road for developing situations.

I'm also talking about standing water - ponds and lakes. Not running water which is a whole different situation. Incidentally, the dive team is trained in swift warer rescue too.

You have suits etc...but do you have training to perform a rescue without injuring yourselves. 2suits? Not enough. Maybe to run out onto the ice but what happens when their is a need for someone else to come get you?

We have 12 suits on 3 trained companies, 12 more at our Special Operations Division, as well as Ocean ID boats designed for water rescue, including ice emergencies.
Just wondering .....

Maybe I am just wrong - it's often the case

But, I don't believe there are very many departments in NY, (at least Westchester area) that have the capability to go out on the ice. On the other hand, most of the departments in Connecticut seem to have ice rescue capability. My department has 2 suits (see below), noodle, rope bags, life vests (and some other items) on our 3 front line apparatus.

This past weekend I heard a page for one of the departments (Montrose maybe) ice rescue team being put on standby. In this case, I'm not sure anything more came of it. How much time is it going to take to get them where they're needed?

I would think for a still body of water (ie not a river), that with some basic training, proper PPE, this is a low risk, medium frequency type of event that more departments should be able to do.


You have suits etc...but do you have training to perform a rescue without injuring yourselves. 2suits? Not enough. Maybe to run out onto the ice but what happens when their is a need for someone else to come get you?

We have 12 suits on 3 trained companies, 12 more at our Special Operations Division, as well as Ocean ID boats designed for water rescue, including ice emergencies.
Just wondering .....

[Monty 35]

Just got this link http://waterford.patch.com/groups/police-and-fire/p/waterford-firefighters-rescue-dog-from-ice

Jordan Village's Engine 11 responded with a crew of two career firefighters and one volunteer firefighter. Waterford Police Officers assisted in final preparation and deployment of two rescue swimmers.

The two rescue swimmers entered the frigid water wearing rescue suits designed to keep out the wet and the cold. Both swimmers were tethered with a safety line as they waded out to the canine, breaking the thin ice as they went.

[Remember585 815]

Monty,

Your neighbors to the north can respond to ice rescue incidents.

For everyone else asking why more departments don't do it... I can tell you that over the past FOUR years we scheduled a class THREE times and the weather changed on us, eliminating the ice to do it on. Our instructor has offered to bring us as a group to his area (CT) which hasn't been fully ruled out.

Ice Rescue isn't as dangerous as a lot of people think it is. Like any other technical rescue, those that haven't learned it will always be skeptical about it and say it's too dangerous to do it.

As for MoFire - I know that Montrose does something annually (for the most part) - ever thought of inviting your neighbors to the south? I mean we are nice enough to invite y'all to some stuff...

[moggie6 54]

In Dutchess quite a few departments have ice water rescue training and equipment. Fairview and Roosevelt are both equipped and have worked together in the past at incidents very well. Arlington and LaGrange have their very own swift water rescue team that falls under the or will fall under the LaGrange, Arlington, and possibly City of Poughkeepsie Technical Rescue Battalion.

[Spartan052 43]

Montrose also has a Ice water rescue team. 25 members trained and certified. 6 suits sled and capabilities to assist departments who are willing to learn.

i had a great time learning with montrose granted buchanan doesnt have the equipment but we can assist montrose at the scene