Ellenville EMT saves 4 y/o, is suspended/quits

[Bnechis 3,961]

I like all the comments of: "the rules are the rules" ....What I find interesting is how many of those agencies are 100% compliant with OSHA Laws ("rules")?

Does your EMS agency train every member in hazmat before they can respond on ANY calls?

What about proper PPE for MVA's? This means every responder has helmet, gloves, coat, pants, & boats that meet NFPA standards and they are wearing them?

How many have been trained in confined space awareness, trench/excavation awareness and water safety as required by law?

[12 7]

Can't spell problems without EMS!

[Dinosaur 844]

1. I like all the comments of: "the rules are the rules" ....What I find interesting is how many of those agencies are 100% compliant with OSHA Laws ("rules")?

2. Does your EMS agency train every member in hazmat before they can respond on ANY calls?

3. What about proper PPE for MVA's? This means every responder has helmet, gloves, coat, pants, & boats that meet NFPA standards and they are wearing them?

4. How many have been trained in confined space awareness, trench/excavation awareness and water safety as required by law?

Wouldn't be a party without a lively discussion (debate) about the emergency services at a New Year's Eve party. LOL

1. Rules for the sake of rules without any consideration to the reality around them is problematic. I venture to guess that you can guess the percentage of compliant agencies on your fingers (less than 10%).

2. Again, probably not. But the same can be said for FD's and even PD's. A private sector safety guy even went so far as to say that you can respond to haz-mat and operate defensively with only awareness level training. We all thought it was operations level to respond to a haz-mat. So even the private sector doesn't always have it right.

3. EMS agencies don't have to comply with NFPA, right? That is the standard for fire departments. How many non-fire EMS agencies care about NFPA standards?

4. What law requires that training? If they're not operating in confined areas or trenches, etc. do they need the training? Water safety? Required by law? Please cite that one for us. I'll enjoy pointing that one out to people.

[Bnechis 3,961]

Wouldn't be a party without a lively discussion (debate) about the emergency services at a New Year's Eve party. LOL

1. Rules for the sake of rules without any consideration to the reality around them is problematic. I venture to guess that you can guess the percentage of compliant agencies on your fingers (less than 10%).

2. Again, probably not. But the same can be said for FD's and even PD's. A private sector safety guy even went so far as to say that you can respond to haz-mat and operate defensively with only awareness level training. We all thought it was operations level to respond to a haz-mat. So even the private sector doesn't always have it right.

3. EMS agencies don't have to comply with NFPA, right? That is the standard for fire departments. How many non-fire EMS agencies care about NFPA standards?

4. What law requires that training? If they're not operating in confined areas or trenches, etc. do they need the training? Water safety? Required by law? Please cite that one for us. I'll enjoy pointing that one out to people.

1. Agreed

2. Yes the same can be said for them, My point was for those who keep saying the rules must be followed.......

The private sector guy is right and wrong. Generally EMS only needs awareness, however the law is clear that firefighters need ops (minimum) and all must have the training before responding on any call, not just hazmat calls. When the law came out in the 80's, Nassau County trained all the firefighters to awareness and the NYS Courts told them to upgrade everyone to ops.

3. NYS & many other state courts have said that consensus standards are the standard that are used by the courts, unless you can prove they directly do not applies to you. FED OSHA has fined commercial EMS in Westchester for failing to provide proper PPE for EMS at MVA's and they use the NFPA standards for it. Also more than 50% of NFPA standards have nothing to do with fire departments.

4. DOL General Duty Clause requires the employer to:

SEC. 5. Duties (a) Each employer --

(1) shall furnish to each of his employees employment and a place of employment which are free from recognized hazards that are causing or are likely to cause death or serious physical harm to his employees;

(2) shall comply with occupational safety and health standards promulgated under this Act.

29 USC 654 ( Each employee shall comply with occupational safety and health standards and all rules, regulations, and orders issued pursuant to this Act which are applicable to his own actions and conduct.

Hazmat is very specific:

1910.120(q)(6) Training. Training shall be based on the duties and function to be performed by each responder of an emergency response organization. The skill and knowledge levels required for all new responders, those hired after the effective date of this standard, shall be conveyed to them through training before they are permitted to take part in actual emergency operations on an incident. Employees who participate, or are expected to participate, in emergency response, shall be given training in accordance with the following paragraphs:

1910.120(q)(6)(I) First responder awareness level. First responders at the awareness level are individuals who are likely to witness or discover a hazardous substance release and who have been trained to initiate an emergency response sequence by notifying the proper authorities of the release. They would take no further action beyond notifying the authorities of the release. First responders at the awareness level shall have sufficient training or have had sufficient experience to objectively demonstrate competency in the following areas:

1910.120(q)(8) Refresher training.

Those employees who are trained in accordance with paragraph (q)(6) of this section shall receive annual refresher training of sufficient content and duration to maintain their competencies, or shall demonstrate competency in those areas at least yearly.

For Confined Space:

1910.146(g) Training.

1910.146(g)(1)The employer shall provide training so that all employees whose work is regulated by this section acquire the understanding, knowledge, and skills necessary for the safe performance of the duties assigned under this section.

1910.146(g)(2)(i)Training shall be provided to each affected employee: Before the employee is first assigned duties under this section;

1910.146(g)(2)(ii) Before there is a change in assigned duties;

DOL has interpreted this to mean if an employee can be assigned to a location that has a confined space, then at a minimum they must know what they are and what the hazards of them are.

The trench standard lists that employees may not enter an unprotected trench. Citations under the General Duty Clause have been issued because employees did not understand what an unprotected trench is.

The same standard applies to water hazards

The level of training for "Operating" at these locations is higher. Here I'm just referring to the requirements for being at a location that has these hazards.