Ellenville EMT saves 4 y/o, is suspended/quits

[Ga-Lin 86]

2 minutes is possible. Figure about 30 seconds for tones and dispatch information and maybe about a minute or so to go to your car and get your jacket and scope, go back in, start the rig. It's possible. I know personally it takes me about 90 seconds to actually get on the road from the time the dispatcher stops talking. (Learned a long time ago to hit the head before hitting the road). They also could have been playing rock, paper, sissors to see who was going to be the hero in charge. .

It was 11 AM. I'm pressuming they've been there a while (probablly not since 7AM but still). Even so, you're at the bay, coat with your own scope in the pocket. I REALLY understand about the head.... from painfiul experience there is nothing worse on this earth than being out on the H'way at the MVA in the wet AND cold with a full bladder. Two minutes is a long time when crew is there and the call is for a kid seizeing. Like we said I don't see them taking alot of time getting out they should have been puting a little hustle in it and if they didn't.... I'm just saying

Edited December 28, 2013 by Ga-Lin

[EMTF469 9]

I have been Captain of our squad for over 17 years and we have the same rules in our by-laws. However we also realize the importance of getting a rig to the scene for transport of a patient, therefore we have a contingency plan written into those by-laws for drivers under the age of 21. Any member who is a potential driver is provided with EVOC as well as in-house training on our rigs, we call them conditional drivers. If a qualified driver is not available to get the rig to the scene then a conditional driver drives it to the scene. Upon reaching the scene, if there is a qualified driver available who is not needed in the patient compartment, then that driver will take responsibiity for the transport. If one is not available then the conditional driver follows through with the transport duties.It works out quite well and we have never had a reportable incident.

This isn't rocket science people it is about common sense and community service. If I had been in the same situation as Stephen I would have done the same thing. It would have been a different situation if this had been one of those much too frequent "taxi rides", but it wasn't. I'm not saying that there shouldn't be consequences for disregarding rules and regulations, however I do believe that there was a better option than suspension.in this case. The man had exhausted his search for mutual aid. The people who voted for the suspension should stop, take a deep breath, and ask themselves what they would have considered prudent if they were the parent of this four year old. This is what destroys volunteerism in our communities. Kudos to the four who voted for such a severe penalty you did a great service to your community. Oh, and I also support torture as a means to gather information....yeah right!!!!!!!!!! Just in case no one gets it...this is sarcasm my friends. Enough said.

[FFEMT150 214]

I have been Captain of our squad for over 17 years and we have the same rules in our by-laws. However we also realize the importance of getting a rig to the scene for transport of a patient, therefore we have a contingency plan written into those by-laws for drivers under the age of 21. Any member who is a potential driver is provided with EVOC as well as in-house training on our rigs, we call them conditional drivers. If a qualified driver is not available to get the rig to the scene then a conditional driver drives it to the scene. Upon reaching the scene, if there is a qualified driver available who is not needed in the patient compartment, then that driver will take responsibiity for the transport. If one is not available then the conditional driver follows through with the transport duties.It works out quite well and we have never had a reportable incident.

This isn't rocket science people it is about common sense and community service. If I had been in the same situation as Stephen I would have done the same thing. It would have been a different situation if this had been one of those much too frequent "taxi rides", but it wasn't. I'm not saying that there shouldn't be consequences for disregarding rules and regulations, however I do believe that there was a better option than suspension.in this case. The man had exhausted his search for mutual aid. The people who voted for the suspension should stop, take a deep breath, and ask themselves what they would have considered prudent if they were the parent of this four year old. This is what destroys volunteerism in our communities. Kudos to the four who voted for such a severe penalty you did a great service to your community. Oh, and I also support torture as a means to gather information....yeah right!!!!!!!!!! Just in case no one gets it...this is sarcasm my friends. Enough said.

First: I applaud your agency for having such a plan in place.

Second: this guy would never have been in this situation had he not instructed the first staffed ambulance to respond to the second call as stated in the article I posted about 5 posts back.

[Westchester 49]

After reading all these threads, in my opinion it just goes to show how 1 article got everyone hot and wild and burned up social media, and now we read the secons article and there is more to the story. Before we take sides and all become experts there is always different sides to hear and read. He did wrong, period. No excuses should be typed or said. Rules are rules and if you don't like them quit or don't join. The second article is so much different then the first, wait there will be a third and we'll be hanging him out to dry.

[spin_the_wheel 460]

The EMS service in the are is obviously flawed and needs help. I agree that is the true problem here.

That said....as far as the individual involved you do what you have to do sometimes. IF things work out you can look yourself in the mirror every morning and know that you did the right thing. The hell with whatever anyone else thinks or a suspension letter on file. Like someone else said take your medicine and move on. These are the "war" stories that get better with time. "Remember the time when you took the......." When things work out you are able to laugh at them years form now. I would walk with my head held high for a job well done.

For the individual to resign there has to be other problems going on. Who knows what they are but this is not worth resigning over. JMO

[calhobs 110]

Please correct me if I am wrong here. But doesn't NYS protocol state that two people have to be in an ambulance while responding to call such as EMT and a Driver or EMT and EMT. As far as I remember that ambulance is out of service and can not respond to calls with one person on board.

Edited December 28, 2013 by calhobs

[Ga-Lin 86]

The point I think we all are mising is that there is a severe internal problem within this agency. This individual was a crew chief, working committee member, has been in & around the agency since he was 15, 5-6 years and was the youth squad advisor. Anyone remember the end scene in the movie Philidelphia, when the jury is in the room discussing the case? Why do you still have a problem with someone that you have had & should have been grooming for the past 5-6 years, why promote a problem child to crew chief and why in Gods name do you put someone that you are having, supposedly, long standing control issues with in charge of your farm system, your youth squad, who is suppose to serve as a mentor & role model for these kids. I just don't get it, someone want to explain it to me......Like I'm a 3 year old.

[Ga-Lin 86]

Please correct me if I am wrong here. But doesn't NYS protocol state that two people have to be in an ambulance while responding to call such as EMT and a Driver or EMT and EMT. As far as I remember that ambulance is out of service and can not respond to calls with on person on board.

NYS states that there must be a certified EMT with the patient at all times. Nothing specific about crew responding to a call all together. if they did that at least half of really rural VAC would be put out of business.

[calhobs 110]

ok then must of been a New York City thing back in the day

[Ga-Lin 86]

ok then must of been a New York City thing back in the day

NYC back in the day was a long time ago in a galaxy far, far away

[Bottom of Da Hill 76]

i am glad he did what he did if it was my son i would thank him.he new what the rules were and still took action?some times we go out side the box to get the job done we all ben there at one point.just do it safe,

[firefighter0727 1]

I have one question how is a 20 year old a cop in New York State. When you need to be 21 years old to carry a gun. Something not right with this article. I really think that there is more to this story and that's why they suspended him .

[v85 212]

Minimum age for police officer in NYS is 20. Very rare, but it can happen. In that case the department either buys their guns or they may be able to on their shield, I'm not too sure on that.

New Jersey and some other states you can be an officer at 18, although you need to be 21 to buy a gun.

I do agree though that something might be fishy about this article though. Politics? Ticked off the wrong people and were looking at an excuse to get rid of him? General screw up on his last legs?

[Westchester 49]

OK! Beating this story to death. Bottom line he buffed it out. He has no authority to send a crew to a second call before the first call. A child with a seizure and a elderly man with a cut arm are two different calls. For all we know the child was blasting a fever causing seizures, which in my medical training takes first priority. This EMT broke the rules and freelanced ( in my mind ) he wanted to be the hero of the day. Case closed. Another buff in a agency trying to get his/her name noticed. It happens in every department, there's always one that buffs a call and ends up causing more harm than good. No reader should argue with this cause we all have one in a department we serve and if you don't you full of it.

[FireMedic049 597]

Couldn't agree more. The thing that gets me is that so many people are so quick to blame the officers or board of agencies and their policies. Having been a past officer, I have been belittled for policies set in place and disciplinary actions I have taken. Most people don't understand why the decisions were made. Myself and the captain at the time suspended a member for 30 days for turning a decorative license plate upside down. May seem extreme to some bit the decision was made after several incidents of his driving and when questioned about the incident (he was caught on tape by the way) he lied to is about it. Suspended, served his time, came back and became a productive member.

Now we see an article about a boy who was suspended after violating a rule in his agency. The crowd goes wild about it but no one has mentioned that this article states he has violated other rules in the past and no action was taken. I think they were trying to put him in his place. That's why I agree with his suspension.

A lot of the reason why people question decisions is often due to a lack of information being available to them or poorly communicated information that is available.

IMO, you just did this in your post above about the member you suspended. You state that you and the Captain suspended a member for turning a license plate upside down. You then insinuate that some issues with his driving and lying about the license plate incident may have influenced the suspension decision.

By itself, turning a license plate upside down is a BS reason to suspend somebody. Factoring in the driving issues to justify a suspension following a non-driving incident is suspect IMO. It might be reasonable to do so if the driving issues were a pattern of rule violations and the appropriate corrective measures where taken and documented. Suspending him for lying about turning the license plate upside down and you have definitive evidence that it's a lie, that's another story.

So what was the actual reason for the suspension, the license plate, a cummulative behavior issue or something else? If you suspended him for lying about the incident, but told or allowed your members to think that it was because of the license plate, then you deserve any grief you got over it.

[Reliance 29]

I have a question. What was his reason for not sending the crew out on the first call to start with before the second call came in?? No one on here has really answered that part of how can you go to a second call before the first call.

[FireMedic049 597]

OK! Beating this story to death. Bottom line he buffed it out. He has no authority to send a crew to a second call before the first call. A child with a seizure and a elderly man with a cut arm are two different calls. For all we know the child was blasting a fever causing seizures, which in my medical training takes first priority. This EMT broke the rules and freelanced ( in my mind ) he wanted to be the hero of the day. Case closed. Another buff in a agency trying to get his/her name noticed. It happens in every department, there's always one that buffs a call and ends up causing more harm than good. No reader should argue with this cause we all have one in a department we serve and if you don't you full of it.

You are correct that a child with a seizure and an elderly man with a cut arm are two different calls. I'll preface this with the fact that I don't have the details provided at the time of the dispatches, the priority between the two calls seams clear based on these simplistic descriptions however, that may not be the case. Does the child have a history of seizures? Has the child been running a fever? How bad is the cut on the elderly male? How bad is he bleeding? Is he on a blood thinner?

Given the info presented, it appears that the VAC would be sending BLS units to these calls. As such, in general, the only thing that the crew would provide for the child is oxygen and transport to the hospital. On the other hand, if the eldely male's "cut arm" was actually a serious laceration with uncontrolled bleeding and on a blood thinner, then it could be argued that he could be the higher priority call since the BLS unit could provide a definitive intervention on the scene for his condition, but not for the child.

Regardless, the bigger issue appears to be an inadequate EMS system.

[FFEMT150 214]

A lot of the reason why people question decisions is often due to a lack of information being available to them or poorly communicated information that is available.

IMO, you just did this in your post above about the member you suspended. You state that you and the Captain suspended a member for turning a license plate upside down. You then insinuate that some issues with his driving and lying about the license plate incident may have influenced the suspension decision.

By itself, turning a license plate upside down is a BS reason to suspend somebody. Factoring in the driving issues to justify a suspension following a non-driving incident is suspect IMO. It might be reasonable to do so if the driving issues were a pattern of rule violations and the appropriate corrective measures where taken and documented. Suspending him for lying about turning the license plate upside down and you have definitive evidence that it's a lie, that's another story.

So what was the actual reason for the suspension, the license plate, a cummulative behavior issue or something else? If you suspended him for lying about the incident, but told or allowed your members to think that it was because of the license plate, then you deserve any grief you got over it.

The license plate incident was the last straw. This individual had been spoken to numerous times regarding violations of rules and regulations. All incidents were documented. The lie was the final deciding factor. The board of directors were aware of the incidents and supported our decision to suspend the individual. We felt that the suspension would serve as an "attitude adjustment". We were right. After his suspension he returned and became a valuable asset. If you wish to discuss this further PM me so we don't hijack the thread.

[FireMedic049 597]

I have a question. What was his reason for not sending the crew out on the first call to start with before the second call came in?? No one on here has really answered that part of how can you go to a second call before the first call.

I can't answer for their particular situation, but it's actually a pretty easy thing the explain. Sometimes you have to make a judgement call in a situation like that and take the second call if it seems like it's more of a priority.

In my area, our calls are assigned a priority category by 911. I work for a paid service that only responds with on-duty staffed units. If we have only 1 unit available and get 2 calls close together like this, we will typically take the higher priority call (unless the mutual aid unit will be a lot closer) and refer the other to mutual aid regardless of what order they came in.

We do the same thing within our units. If a unit is on the way to a low priority call and a high priority call comes in that they will be a lot closer to than one of our other units, they will divert to that call and one of the other units will pick up their call.

[FireMedic049 597]

The license plate incident was the last straw. This individual had been spoken to numerous times regarding violations of rules and regulations. All incidents were documented. The lie was the final deciding factor. The board of directors were aware of the incidents and supported our decision to suspend the individual. We felt that the suspension would serve as an "attitude adjustment". We were right. After his suspension he returned and became a valuable asset. If you wish to discuss this further PM me so we don't hijack the thread.

I'm glad it worked out, but I feel like you missed my point. In your case, you can't let your members think that he was suspended for turning the license plate upside down when it was actually a "final straw" situation. They don't need to know all of the specifics, just that it involved multiple rule violations (and lying about the license plate incident). A suspension for what appears to be a harmless prank is BS and allowing your members to think that's the situation is wrong to all involved and deserves questioning by the membership.

[FFEMT150 214]

I'm glad it worked out, but I feel like you missed my point. In your case, you can't let your members think that he was suspended for turning the license plate upside down when it was actually a "final straw" situation. They don't need to know all of the specifics, just that it involved multiple rule violations (and lying about the license plate incident). A suspension for what appears to be a harmless prank is BS and allowing your members to think that's the situation is wrong to all involved and deserves questioning by the membership.

I apologize, I did not miss your point. I was attempting to edit my last post when I recieved a phone call. The membership was told at the monthly meeting the individual was suspended for ongoing behavioral problems. The rumor mill had already started seeing as he was suspended 4 days prior to the meeting. After the correct information was provided to the membership I still caught a lot of grief over the suspension because "he's a driver and we need him!"

[FireMedic049 597]

I apologize, I did not miss your point. I was attempting to edit my last post when I recieved a phone call. The membership was told at the monthly meeting the individual was suspended for ongoing behavioral problems. The rumor mill had already started seeing as he was suspended 4 days prior to the meeting. After the correct information was provided to the membership I still caught a lot of grief over the suspension because "he's a driver and we need him!"

OK.

[201/65 94]

Anyone have a clue where the on duty medic was during this? I assume he was on scene of the seizure call awaiting the ambulance. For those that don't know Ellenville First Aid is an ALS combination agency with a staffed medic fly car 24/7. I'm not sure if they staff a driver when there is no pre-arranged volunteer crew, but I hear them go up to a third dispatch for the ambulance quite often. Given their remote location to any staffed back up, and the close proximity to Ellenville Hospital they primarily use Kerhonkson/Accord First Aid for transporting backup, and as one article stated, tone out the FD for any driver.

In my opinion, if your going to entertain a non-member firefighter driving your ambulance because he drives fire trucks, then why wouldn't you entertain a member with plenty of ambulance driving experience? The captain stating that the commercial ambulance doesn't transport patients in an emergency situation is 100% false (I bet they were also the ones who transported the baby to Albany Medical Center after Ellenville Hospital couldn't handle the patient). And his claim they only use converted vans is a bit off, the agency this kid works for has more Type III ambulances than his own.

[latemedic39 4]

It has been beaten to death and I wonder how many other news agencies are going to be contacted if he is such a dedicated member of the squad he showed his true age by when he got busted by the rules instead of takin it like a man doing his time and then coming back to try and make the proper changes to the rules he quit !!!!!! That is the bottom line some one said it before why did he send first crew out for arm laceration redirecting them from the first dispatch of seizures ? Wtf so I'm done getting off my box now

[EXDC203 38]

Emt quits after being suspended for saving a 4 y/o life because he drove the bus.........way to go Ellenville Board of Directors!!!!! Ask the parents how they feel!!!!!!

[Jybehofd 85]

rules are rules if he took the punishment because he knew he broke the rule. that is in black and white for them. would we have actually heard about this and start to hit the national new circuit? Real question is how many other people in the country have broken a rule like this and have taken the punishment because they knew they broke a rule and took the punishment that goes along with it?

[Dinosaur 844]

rules are rules if he took the punishment because he knew he broke the rule. that is in black and white for them. would we have actually heard about this and start to hit the national new circuit? Real question is how many other people in the country have broken a rule like this and have taken the punishment because they knew they broke a rule and took the punishment that goes along with it?

On the other hand, how many agency's maintain questionable rules because they can while at the same time being unable to get their rigs out the door.

[AFS1970 504]

questionable rules are an issue in many agencies. In my old department I had always heard that you had to be 21 to drive. I never gave the rule much thought. We had a kid join at 17, and get his FF training and start asking to drive almost as soon as he was 18. He went and got a job driving dump trucks also. He kept being told that he had to be 21 and that it was an insurance rule. I was an officer at the time but had little direct interaction with the insurance company so I didn't know for sure. Then a few senior drivers started saying that they drove when they were 18. One night our insurance agent came to put on a driver safety talk and in some of the case histories he talked about he mentioned 18 y/o drivers. So I asked him and he said they had no rule, they only said we had to have some rule and follow that rule, didn't matter to them what our rule was. It turned out that the 21 rule was just to block a couple of people from driving. Oh and our internal rule was not written down anywhere.

Now based on that experience, if this squad had a written rule requiring 21, and the 20 y/o drove, he might have been considered uninsured. Not agaisnt the policy so much as not covered by the policy.

I tend to agree that the rules are the rules, but we also have to be constantly reviewing our rules to make sure that they are in fact beneficial to the department operation and the community we serve. We need to make sure they are outdated. For some reason driving rules seem to be some of the most contentious ones we have.

Some examples I have seen in a few departments, that are somewhat similar to this case.

A long time volunteer who never started driver training gets hired by a career department. While there he is trained to drive a variety of apparatus and frequently assigned as a driver. This department is much busier than the volunteer department. A few years later and a couple of different career departments later this member is willing to be an active volunteer and is turned down for driving due to lack of experience and responsibility.

A member of a neighboring department that runs M/A into a local department frequently including water supply leaves the first department and joins the second department. The second department will not let him drive due to lack of experience. After about a year he asks again and is told he has to start on the Rescue but has to memorize all the hydrants first. This despite the fact that when driving the water supply M/A engine he could rely on maps or orders from the IC and the fact that the rescue will never be called upon to take the hydrant as it has no pump or hose.

A member wants to drive the smallest vehicle in a department that is the rescue. Told they have to be an EMT first, despite many senior MRT's driving. Get their EMT asks again and is told it is an experience thing. Goes to work for a commercial ambulance as a driver. Finally begrudgingly told that they can drive but be careful. Clearly that member was being blocked for some other reason.

[38ff 250]

There is no rule for the insurance companies, but the rate the district pays sure reflects 18 year old drivers vs 21 year old drivers.

[Jybehofd 85]

thats all nice now go to your agency and change it stand up and review your rules. you might even break them to change them but don't just resign fix the problem and work with the command and the chain of command there to change things if needed. who are we to say what their rules should be, and how to change them. In the past I was suspended for refusing to detstroy a pcr that was an rma because it wasn't toned out. I took the punishment and moved and also enlighten the legal aspects of properly destroying patient care reports. It happens.