Ellenville EMT saves 4 y/o, is suspended/quits

[Bnechis 3,961]

A 20y/o Ellenville EMT drove the ambulance to a call with a 4y/o having a seizure. Agency rules do not allow 20 y/o's to drive, but after 4 other agencies could not get out and the local commercial service gave a 45 min ETA. This EMT (who is also an EMT for a commercial service, is a p/t cop and allowed to drive his VFD's apparatus) Drove the ambulance. Agency leaders claim this is a local policy and not an insurance issue. He was suspended by the Board of Directors, so he resigned.

The patient was transported to local ER then transferred to Albany Medical Center.

I would give the link, but have not been able to cut and paste on EMTB for weeks (since I got a new PC)...time for them to upgrade the browser.

best article was on www.recordonline.com

[Dinosaur 844]

Fascinating. He can be a part-time cop, a firefighter, and even be an EMT in the back of the ambulance caring for someone but he can't drive it.

Just wondering what the agency and its neighbors are doing to fix the staffing problem they have? According to the article, four agencies couldn't get a crew out. That's more of a story than the fact that a 20 year old broke the rules.

[ex-commish 490]

In reading the article I see the decision to suspend him was 4-3. I feel the suspension was excessive. It's not like he took the bus for a joy ride or was driving drunk. He took an oath to save lives and he made a decision based on what was best for the patient. While I wont comment on another agency's SOP's I will say I would sided with the 3 that voted against suspending him. I hope there can be a resolution to this that will have a good outcome for all involved especially the public.

[fac911 33]

And you wonder why you can't get people to volunteer. Its BS like that.

[STAT213 332]

Because him driving is the big issue there. Yup. Focus on THAT and feel good about being EMS leaders. We gots rules, don't cha know!!!

FAIL.

[Remember585 815]

I got qualified on our ambulances at 18 "by fire." A call came in for an elderly male with difficulty breathing. We had an EMT, just no driver, so I drove. At the time I was driving a tow truck, and the patient was the father/Grandfather of members in our FD.

Similarly, I joined another VAC a couple years later. There, they refused to let me drive despite the fact I was a qualified driver on our ambulances, my Engine, Tanker, Rescue and Ladder Truck. The reason; "We have enough drivers." I was qualified when we had an MCI and nobody showed up for the third Ambulance.

If you can be an EMT at 18 and work for a commercial service where you drive, then there is absolutely no reason why a VAC shouldn't allow you to drive too.

[STAT213 332]

John. You clearly don't get it. They have RULES, man. RULES!!!

On a side note, anyone wonder where the 7 board members were for the call? No? Good.

[Bnechis 3,961]

I hope the community understands the real issue, they and 4 neighboring communities can not get an ambulance out to save a 4 y/o.

It really is time to regionalize and insure coverage.

[Ga-Lin 86]

Fascinating. He can be a part-time cop, a firefighter, and even be an EMT in the back of the ambulance caring for someone but he can't drive it.

Just wondering what the agency and its neighbors are doing to fix the staffing problem they have? According to the article, four agencies couldn't get a crew out. That's more of a story than the fact that a 20 year old broke the rules.

It has nothing to do with the rules, its about control of the many (mostly newer, younger members) by the few (mostly long standing, older members). This is the main reason so many VACs have staffing/membership issues. Instead of qualifing people and clearing them based on ability (this guy is a NYS EMT, already works for a busy commercial service, p/t PD. VFD) they force him out. I just wonder where the Capt and other Brd members who voted against this young man were when this call was going down? 4 page outs, I mean really! And then the so called Captain states that "this is the type of story that the public" (which he supposedly serves) "doesn't need to be told" "There's no value in this story other than shock value" (at least he got this point right) "and gossip" He also states It's about "going through the proper training" "Experience driving other ambulances doesn't necessarily matter" I'd like to know what driver training they offer in order to "properly prepare" their members. This is a guy who has been around since he was 15, restarted the youth squad of his corps, which in well run places brings in a supply of young, already well groomed members. Now he's done and probably for good, along with how many of the Jr. members who looked up to him as a role model.

[STAT213 332]

A classic example of what I like to refer to as volitics.

[Dinosaur 844]

I got qualified on our ambulances at 18 "by fire." A call came in for an elderly male with difficulty breathing. We had an EMT, just no driver, so I drove. At the time I was driving a tow truck, and the patient was the father/Grandfather of members in our FD.

Similarly, I joined another VAC a couple years later. There, they refused to let me drive despite the fact I was a qualified driver on our ambulances, my Engine, Tanker, Rescue and Ladder Truck. The reason; "We have enough drivers." I was qualified when we had an MCI and nobody showed up for the third Ambulance.

If you can be an EMT at 18 and work for a commercial service where you drive, then there is absolutely no reason why a VAC shouldn't allow you to drive too.

P-O-W-E-R !!!!!

Forget about service to the community, they get to control people in their little VAC world because they can't control them in the real world.

[FFEMT150 214]

Perhaps it is the insurance company that made the age restriction. Everyone is so quick to jump on the officers and board about it. If the insurance company requires a person to be 21 years old to operate the ambulance, this made him an uninsured driver and left the corps and himself open to a huge liability. As far as someone asking where the 7 board members were for this call, are they members or are the community representatives? Yes there is a lot of BS politics and personal agendas in volunteer EMS, but it isn't always at the fault of those who govern. Sometimes it's the big mouths and the cliques that cause the problem. Rant over.

Have a happy new year and stay safe!

[Dinosaur 844]

Perhaps it is the insurance company that made the age restriction. Everyone is so quick to jump on the officers and board about it. If the insurance company requires a person to be 21 years old to operate the ambulance, this made him an uninsured driver and left the corps and himself open to a huge liability. As far as someone asking where the 7 board members were for this call, are they members or are the community representatives? Yes there is a lot of BS politics and personal agendas in volunteer EMS, but it isn't always at the fault of those who govern. Sometimes it's the big mouths and the cliques that cause the problem. Rant over.

Have a happy new year and stay safe!

Perhaps you should have read the article or even the first post. Ambulance corps captain John Gavaris quoted as saying squad rules "aren't dictated by insurance".

John Gavaris, a captain and board member for Ellenville First Aid and Rescue Squad as well as a Wawarsing town councilman, says he can't go into specifics about Sawyer's incident because it's a personnel matter, but said the squad's rules are consistent with other rescue squads in the region.

They aren't dictated by insurance, he said.

The reasons for the over-21 rule comes down to experience, Gavaris says, and going through the proper training to drive an ambulance.

Experience driving firetrucks or other ambulances doesn't necessarily matter, Gavaris says.

Edited December 28, 2013 by Dinosaur

[SRS131EMTFF 471]

I agree with the suspension. Rules are rules and follow them or don't bother coming down.

Would we even be having this conversation had he broken protocols? No, even if he had saved the child, he would have had the book thrown at him.

Obviously these squads need to reevaluate their driver regulations, however on a call is no time or place to do that. How many of you would let him drive your fire truck?

Either the rules apply to everyone or they apply to no one. If he did not like the squads rules, why was he even a member?

Had the rules allowed him to drive, and he crashed the ambulance the conversation would be why would the squad allow such young drivers instead of why was he not allowed to drive.

I fully support 21 years or older requirement for all apparatus and every organization I have been a part of except my IFT company has mandated 21 or older to operate apparatus.

Edited December 28, 2013 by SRS131EMTFF

[Dinosaur 844]

I agree with the suspension. Rules are rules and follow them or don't bother coming down.

Would we even be having this conversation had he broken protocols? No, even if he had saved the child, he would have had the book thrown at him.

Obviously these squads need to reevaluate their driver regulations, however on a call is no time or place to do that. How many of you would let him drive your fire truck?

Either the rules apply to everyone or they apply to no one. If he did not like the squads rules, why was he even a member?

Your point is very well taken. Some disciplinary action is probably warranted but the larger issue here is the fact that he was the only person from the entire agency that responded. Maybe he should have gone to the FD or PD and gotten a vehicle that he is authorized to drive to respond.

This isn't about protocols, this is about how the volunteer EMS system is broken and nobody is doing anything about THAT! The Board of Directors should be suspended for failure to insure adequate coverage for their district.

[FFEMT150 214]

Perhaps you should have read the article or even the first post. Ambulance corps captain John Gavaris quoted as saying squad rules "aren't dictated by insurance".

I did miss that line in the article and I apologize. The fact remains that he was not listed as a driver in the organization and was most likely not on the insurance to drive.

The article also states that his suspension was a result of many instances where he violates rules and regulations. Although I do not know what the other incidents were, my opinion thus far is that he is a bit of a loose cannon and needed a reality check. There are several of those types in agencies I belong to.

He is also quoted as picking up a blank sheet if paper and quitting on the spot. Personally I feel that was a bit extreme. Take your punishment and go back to work. I feel that action showed immaturity.

Just my view on the situation. Again, stay safe all.

[Bnechis 3,961]

SRS131EMTFF - Those rules also include covering your calls. When you get your CON (Certificate of Need) from the Health Dept. you agreed to the state law, which states you will operate 24 hours a day. Failure to cover your calls can result in revocation of your CON. NYS DOH looks the other way, because they would have to close the majority of services if they started to enforce it.

[v85 212]

The other thing to keep in mind here is the fact that according to the article he was trained and qualified by Mobile Life to drive an ambulance. It's not like he had never done it before.

That should be considered a mitigating factor.

[Ga-Lin 86]

Perhaps it is the insurance company that made the age restriction. Everyone is so quick to jump on the officers and board about it. If the insurance company requires a person to be 21 years old to operate the ambulance, this made him an uninsured driver and left the corps and himself open to a huge liability. As far as someone asking where the 7 board members were for this call, are they members or are the community representatives? Yes there is a lot of BS politics and personal agendas in volunteer EMS, but it isn't always at the fault of those who govern. Sometimes it's the big mouths and the cliques that cause the problem. Rant over.

Have a happy new year and stay safe!

In the article the Captain stated that the policies were not a result of being dictated by their insurance company. Reasons came down to "experience & training"

[38ff 250]

I have talked to a few insurance companies about emergency vehicle driving. While they all say "as long as they have a NYS license to drive, we allow it" that doesn't mean they DONT hike the premiums up accordingly. Premiums for a dept who says no one under 21 years can drive are lower than a dept that says 18 years old is ok.

So while it technically isn't directly an insurance company "thing", it indirectly is.

Edited December 28, 2013 by 38ff

[FFEMT150 214]

In the article the Captain stated that the policies were not a result of being dictated by their insurance company. Reasons came down to "experience & training"

Yes. Someone has already pointed that out to me. I missed that in the article. I again apologize.

[Ga-Lin 86]

Yes. Someone has already pointed that out to me. I missed that in the article. I again apologize.

No problem Bro. This is a hot topic and seems to have struck a major cord with everyone here. As a result some fingers are flying faster than they can keep up with the reading or is it the other way around/

[bad box 371]

I hope the community understands the real issue, they and 4 neighboring communities can not get an ambulance out to save a 4 y/o.

It really is time to regionalize and insure coverage.

I strongly advocate that communities start putting the same price (or higher) on human life that they put on education, road repair, trash pick up, elected community leadership, librarys, law enforcement, etc.. I'd much rather see a county wide career fire, rescue, EMS system (supplimented by volunteers if available) rather than individual volunteer departments with the ever present (potentially life threatening) issue of inability to respond promptly (or at alll) depending upon time of day, day of week, type of call, etc..

[FFEMT150 214]

No problem Bro. This is a hot topic and seems to have struck a major cord with everyone here. As a result some fingers are flying faster than they can keep up with the reading or is it the other way around/

Couldn't agree more. The thing that gets me is that so many people are so quick to blame the officers or board of agencies and their policies. Having been a past officer, I have been belittled for policies set in place and disciplinary actions I have taken. Most people don't understand why the decisions were made. Myself and the captain at the time suspended a member for 30 days for turning a decorative license plate upside down. May seem extreme to some bit the decision was made after several incidents of his driving and when questioned about the incident (he was caught on tape by the way) he lied to is about it. Suspended, served his time, came back and became a productive member.

Now we see an article about a boy who was suspended after violating a rule in his agency. The crowd goes wild about it but no one has mentioned that this article states he has violated other rules in the past and no action was taken. I think they were trying to put him in his place. That's why I agree with his suspension.

[Ga-Lin 86]

Couldn't agree more. The thing that gets me is that so many people are so quick to blame the officers or board of agencies and their policies. Having been a past officer, I have been belittled for policies set in place and disciplinary actions I have taken. Most people don't understand why the decisions were made. Myself and the captain at the time suspended a member for 30 days for turning a decorative license plate upside down. May seem extreme to some bit the decision was made after several incidents of his driving and when questioned about the incident (he was caught on tape by the way) he lied to is about it. Suspended, served his time, came back and became a productive member.

Now we see an article about a boy who was suspended after violating a rule in his agency. The crowd goes wild about it but no one has mentioned that this article states he has violated other rules in the past and no action was taken. I think they were trying to put him in his place. That's why I agree with his suspension.

People, both civilians & us in the Emergency response community, get very emotional where sick or injured children are concerned. If this young man was "a loose cannon" as someone sugested and needed to be reeled in, this was not the instance to do it. True, rules are rules but you also need to, sometimes, pick your battles. This could have & should have been handled better. No matter how you look at it .. it hurt 'em & to a larger extent all others in the volunteer community.

In reading this I was wondering if the young man in question would have been of the same mind if the call was for the elderly old lady who fell and couldn't get up (Fx hip) or the old man with belly pain (GI bleed or maybe just constipated) they also deserve the same level of concern on our part and unfortunately seldom get it.

Edited December 28, 2013 by Ga-Lin

[FFEMT150 214]

People, both civilians & us in the Emergency response community, get very emotional where sick or injured children are concerned. If this young man was "a loose cannon" as someone sugested and needed to be reeled in, this was not the instance to do it. True, rules are rules but you also need to, sometimes, pick your battles. This could have & should have been handled better. No matter how you look at it .. it hurt 'em & to a larger extent all others in the volunteer community.

In reading this I was wondering if the young man in question would have been of the same mind if the call was for the elderly old lady who fell and couldn't get up (Fx hip) or the old man with belly pain (GI bleed or maybe just constipated) they also deserve the same level of concern on our part and unfortunately seldom get it.

I see what you are saying but maybe this was the "straw that broke the camels back".

Now let me propose this: suppose the article headline read "EMT breaks rules to save 4 year old, crashes ambulance". What tune would we all be singing then? I think a lot of the opinions here and in the public (lots of posts on Facebook about this) are stemming from the fact that the patient is only 4 years old (like you said, we all react differently for a child).

[FFEMT150 214]

http://www.dailyfreeman.com/general-news/20131227/ellenville-emt-who-was-suspended-had-previous-violations-squad-captain-says

Found this on another news outlet. Hope the link works.

[Ga-Lin 86]

I see what you are saying but maybe this was the "straw that broke the camels back".

Now let me propose this: suppose the article headline read "EMT breaks rules to save 4 year old, crashes ambulance". What tune would we all be singing then? I think a lot of the opinions here and in the public (lots of posts on Facebook about this) are stemming from the fact that the patient is only 4 years old (like you said, we all react differently for a child).

http://www.dailyfreeman.com/general-news/20131227/ellenville-emt-who-was-suspended-had-previous-violations-squad-captain-says

Found this on another news outlet. Hope the link works.

Now here is another question for the agency. The suspended EMT is at the bay with another EMT & a driver when the call for the 4Y/O comes in ......Two minutes later another call comes in for an injuried 80 Y/O man. The question is why were they not already signed on & enroute to the first call. Two minutes is really a long time to be sitting around when everyone (crew wise) is there.

[FFEMT150 214]

Now here is another question for the agency. The suspended EMT is at the bay with another EMT & a driver when the call for the 4Y/O comes in ......Two minutes later another call comes in for an injuried 80 Y/O man. The question is why were they not already signed on & enroute to the first call. Two minutes is really a long time to be sitting around when everyone (crew wise) is there.

2 minutes is possible. Figure about 30 seconds for tones and dispatch information and maybe about a minute or so to go to your car and get your jacket and scope, go back in, start the rig. It's possible. I know personally it takes me about 90 seconds to actually get on the road from the time the dispatcher stops talking. (Learned a long time ago to hit the head before hitting the road). They also could have been playing rock, paper, sissors to see who was going to be the hero in charge. .

[Bnechis 3,961]

The long established national standard for turnout time (from time of dispatch till vehicle clears the building) is 60 seconds.