Westchester FD Budgets

[Dinosaur 844]

There's a thread about the age of apparatus in the county with an interesting running commentary on the replacement cost of all that apparatus. It is also interesting to consider the cost of the fire service in Westchester County.

If you know, what's the total annual budget of your FD? This isn't secret or privileged information; it should be a matter of public record.

To start:

Yonkers - 53,073,698 (2013 Adopted Budget)

New Rochelle - 27,281,810 (2012 Adopted Budget)

White Plains - 25,149,045 (2013-14 Adopted Budget)

Mt Vernon - 14,454,877 (2013 Adopted Budget)

Peekskill - 3,342,597 (2014 Adopted Budget) *** unknown if this is complete as the individual companies may have their own operating budgets as well

Armonk - 1,671,981.75

Eastchester - 16,759,387

Feel free to add on and we'll see what the grand total is.

[Bnechis 3,961]

While this looks like a good way to determine what is spent, it is very deceiving. What is in each budget may not include many items.

As an example when doing a comprehensive budget comparison of 2 depts. a few years ago:

Dept. X had 30 career members and a budget of $16m

Dept. Y had 50 career members and a budget of $12.8m

Now both pay similar salaries, so in theory Dept. Y's budget should have been about $29-30m.

So how is this possible? Dept. Y's budget did not include the following:

Pension ( Paid from the HR Budget)

Health Insurance & other insurance and medical costs (Paid from the HR Budget)

Fuel, Fleet maintenance, Station maintenance, Utilities (Paid from Public Works Budget)

Hydrant Rental/Cost (Water Dept.)

Fleet Replacement (Capital Budget)

Computers & phones (IT Budget)

Contract Fees (legal Dept.)

Grants (Development Budget)

Without understanding the budget its a meaningless number.

[Dinosaur 844]

Barry, that's certainly possible but you have start somewhere. If you see a big discrepancy like that you can always probe further. I'm just wondering what we pay for our fire departments.

[Bnechis 3,961]

Yes you can probe further and maybe on a case by case bases figure something's out, but generally without an insiders road map, it is almost impossible to figure out which budgets cover what.

And the probing will not occur on EMTBravo, so all it does is make some depts. look good and others bad, when the opposite may actually be true. In fact I know of big discrepancies in multiple depts. in just the short list you listed.

[STAT213 332]

Yeah, but you can get an idea of things that are out of whack. You come across a dept with no staffing and a multi million dollar budget, some flags should be raised.

[Bnechis 3,961]

Even a multi-million dollar budget with no staffing is not a stretch anymore, Insurance, LOSAP, and buying a rig or 2 or bonding a station can easily do it.

Also comparing costs needs to look at services delivered and per capita costs. A few years ago a volunteer district put out a bond proposal to renovate its fire station. They felt the additional $200-$300 per home was reasonable (the voter approved it). I looked at their budget and found the average taxpayer was paying about $700/yr before the addition. Then I calculated my fire cost and found I was at the average tax for my city and I paid at that time $430/yr.

So their million dollar budget looks cheap compared to my $26m, but since mine is covering 77,000 people and they are covering 2,000 - 3,000 my $26m is cheaper.

What I would really like to see as a comparison is an annual mandated report (to the state comptroller) detailing response info (average times, minimum staffing at different times/days, training, meeting standards, how often each vehicle responded, etc.) Then the PUBLIC would have a way to know if their FD (& EMS, PD) was doing as good a job as they claimed they are.

[EMT74 4]

In Somers we have no "Paid Staffing" but we have a mechanic, a secretary, a treasurer, a clerk, a training officer, and a building maintenence guy. Somewhere in there is also a purchasing agent. All are paid. We contract for IT, landscaping, plowing, building cleaning, dispatching and EMS staffing. Hence a volunteer district (Yeah I know it is a vol fire COMPANY that serves a district) that has a budget of about 3 millon a year. The budget for the whole rest of the Town, minus the schools, is about 12 million. So the fire spending (with EMS) is consuming abut 25% of the Town's non-school taxpayer dollars.

THAT is an interesting number- fire response area spending as a % of total town/village spending for the same geographical area.

Another one is spending divided by calls= price of a call.

I saw that one very small Westchester combo dept is paying $2 million/year for retiree pensions and medical coverage. I believe FDNY spends more on retiree pensions and benefits then they spend on payroll of the active duty force, so I asume that is the norm? Barry does the NRFD also do that?

[sympathomedic 383]

OK, I just did a something dumb. That post above was written by me, but EMT74 had been logged onto the computer prior! Sorry

[Bnechis 3,961]

Not sure how to answer the pension question. We pay a huge amount of money towards retired disabled members (as the city is required to) but I do not think you can compare it to the on-duty pension costs. They are spread out over 20+ years and invested by the state to cover the pension. The amount spent is similar to the disability costs, but is covering 2 or 3 times the number of people.

A bigger cost factor are the members who are disabled and waiting for the state to complete the paperwork to retire them. We have had members wait 3 years or more to get retired. This is on members who their doctor, the city doctor and the state pension doctor all agree that the member can not return to work. We continue to pay them as a regular member and pay OT to cover 100% of their shifts. Meanwhile Gov. Cuomo is beating us up for failing to reduce property tax, but he is very proud that he cut the number of state workers (including those that process disability retirements). So that one clerk that no longer works in Albany (and saves the state $60,000) costs our taxpayers $250,000 per employee. we have 5 or 6 in this boat so the states $60,000 saving is costing our tax payers $1.2 - $1.5m and I bet they could process more than 1 retirement every other month, If they could do 2 a month they could save local property taxes of around $6,000,000 (that's $100 saved for every $1 spent). This affects both career FD and PD.

[Medic5274 45]

The Dobbs Ferry Fire Department operates on a $427,200 budget. This makes up 2.5% of the Village of Dobbs Ferry's $17,134,261 budget. Of this $240,000 comes off the top for hydrant rentals to United Water. This brings our actual operating budget down to $187.200 or 1.1% of the villages annual budget. We do not receive any Fire District protection money as we are a completely municipaly funded department. We have to fight with our Village Board every year for even the most minimal of increases. It is really frustrating that the Board funds us at such a rediculous level.

This whopping amount covers protective gear, equipment, building maitenance, vehicle maintenance, maitenance contracts, training, uniforms, office expenses etc.

[sympathomedic 383]

Geeze, so HALF your budget goes for hydrant rental? Does that cover the water use, I hope? Suppose you refuse to pay- will they lock you out of the hydrants?

But seriously, those sound like budget numbers to be proud of! Do you feel you are meeting your needs with that money- is your stuff serviceable? Any FD can find some item of questionable value to spend money on if it is laying around. Is that very modest sum enough to get the job done? If it is maybe others can learn from your example.

One note- I did not see apparatus cost on the list- is that under a bonding by your village and not under the FD budget proper?

[Bnechis 3,961]

It covers the water. If you fail to pay they can #1 sue you for failing to pay your utility bill or #2 United Water can unbolt the hydrant from the lateral and remove it.

We pay close to $1.4m for the hydrant rental fee.

[Bottom of Da Hill 76]

The Dobbs Ferry Fire Department operates on a $427,200 budget. This makes up 2.5% of the Village of Dobbs Ferry's $17,134,261 budget. Of this $240,000 comes off the top for hydrant rentals to United Water. This brings our actual operating budget down to $187.200 or 1.1% of the villages annual budget. We do not receive any Fire District protection money as we are a completely municipaly funded department. We have to fight with our Village Board every year for even the most minimal of increases. It is really frustrating that the Board funds us at such a rediculous level.

This whopping amount covers protective gear, equipment, building maitenance, vehicle maintenance, maitenance contracts, training, uniforms, office expenses etc.

that sad.tarrytown only gets 451.000 and the village gets district money from greenburgh so its almost a wash at the end its almost a free service to the people who live in tarrytown.and out of that comes all building and truck maintenance and all equipment for firefighting.and the village still says its to much?

[Bottom of Da Hill 76]

that sad.tarrytown only gets 451.000 and the village gets district money from greenburgh so its almost a wash at the end its almost a free service to the people who live in tarrytown.and out of that comes all building and truck maintenance and all equipment for firefighting.and the village still says its to much?

and thats for 5 buildings 7 rigs and 2 boats 4 chiefs cars.in tarrytown.

[Dinosaur 844]

and thats for 5 buildings 7 rigs and 2 boats 4 chiefs cars.in tarrytown.

3 square miles and 7 rigs in 5 buildings?

Surrounded by more of the same. No, Westchester wouldn't benefit from a regional approach to emergency services.

[Remember585 815]

Budgets are deceiving. You're talking about Operating Budgets - what about Capital Projects and their related costs?

We are a municipal fire department, funded by the Village of Croton-on-Hudson ($532,213.00 for 2013/2014). We provide services to the Mount Airy/Quaker Bridge Fire Protection Districts within the Town of Cortlandt for about $262,572.00 per year. Our "operating budget" shows a line for Workers Compensation of $79,268.00.

So in essence, we have a budget to work with of $452,945.00. Since the Town of Cortlandt give the Village $262,572.00 each year, we really only cost the Village $190,373.00. If you look at it this way, we are only 1% of the Village's expenses per year (a budget of over $18M).

This is basically our Village giving about $200,000 of Village Tax money to us to run a department of about 150 members, averaging 17 members per incident, staffing six apparatus, three command units, two boats & using three stations.

I'd say we're a pretty good bang for our buck.

[Bottom of Da Hill 76]

3 square miles and 7 rigs in 5 buildings?

Surrounded by more of the same. No, Westchester wouldn't benefit from a regional approach to emergency services.

plus i87 and 287 tappan zee bridge, metro rail road, hudson river ,office parks hotels motels.and paid district of greenburgh.and the meny thousands of people that transit thru tarrytown.its a very busy hub of westchester cnty i would say,

[Dinosaur 844]

Budgets are deceiving. You're talking about Operating Budgets - what about Capital Projects and their related costs?

We are a municipal fire department, funded by the Village of Croton-on-Hudson ($532,213.00 for 2013/2014). We provide services to the Mount Airy/Quaker Bridge Fire Protection Districts within the Town of Cortlandt for about $262,572.00 per year. Our "operating budget" shows a line for Workers Compensation of $79,268.00.

So in essence, we have a budget to work with of $452,945.00. Since the Town of Cortlandt give the Village $262,572.00 each year, we really only cost the Village $190,373.00. If you look at it this way, we are only 1% of the Village's expenses per year (a budget of over $18M).

This is basically our Village giving about $200,000 of Village Tax money to us to run a department of about 150 members, averaging 17 members per incident, staffing six apparatus, three command units, two boats & using three stations.

I'd say we're a pretty good bang for our buck.

Doesn't the above mean you have about $715,517 to work with? Isn't the revenue from Cortlandt added or does the figure of 532,213 already include that Cortlandt funding?