Rank Titles

[v85 212]

I was just wondering? Why is the chief officer of a fire department called "Chief", but the chief officer of most ambulance corps called "Captain"

Also how come in most fire and EMS agencies there are no NCO (sergeant) ranks and it goes right from firefighter/emt to lieutenant and up

[38ff 250]

The fire service needs NCOs....

[SageVigiles 1,194]

The fire service needs NCOs....

Commish, in my opinion we already have them. They're our Senior Men. A good Senior Man should have the same attitude and provide the same type of leadership and guidance an NCO would.

Edited December 16, 2013 by SageVigiles

[lt411 145]

Washington,DC Fire Dept. has a Sgt. rank.

[wraftery 1,275]

They are titled like that just to confuse people

[CFI609D 119]

Also how come in most fire and EMS agencies there are no NCO (sergeant) ranks and it goes right from firefighter/emt to lieutenant and up

The rank of Seargant is commonly used in the metro Washington area, including Montgomery, PG, and Howard Counties in Maryland. Detroit and Oklahoma City also use the rank.

[10512 214]

The only Fire Service to use the Sergeant Rank in this area that I know of was the New York Fire Patrol. They disbanded in 2006.

[38ff 250]

Give the Senior Man the official titles then.

[SageVigiles 1,194]

I have to disagree with you here. I think the value of the informal organization (I hesitate to use the term "peer" since a Senior Man is and should be considered more than that) in mentoring new Firefighters is critically important specifically because the person is NOT of rank. I know it was pretty useful for me. Its the rank and file reinforcing the Officers and covering the things that they can't. Again, just my opinion. Also, in a time when most of us are still struggling to find qualified personnel to fill all Officer spots, I can't see opening up even more positions.

As to the EMS Captain thing... In a Fire-Based EMS system I've usually seen EMS Captains or EMS Assistant Chiefs, because the Fire Chief is the ultimate boss. There aren't too many separate municipal EMS agencies in Connecticut and most of them use the term "Director" as their rank for Chief-of-Service. Why? I have no idea...

Edited December 16, 2013 by SageVigiles

[38ff 250]

Im not saying it could be done, but it might be a good idea. I can see your point though.

[FF1 172]

Lt - in charge of their company. Still a body going into the fire but an inside supervisor if you will.

Capt. - in charge of the firehouse as a whole

Assistant Chiefs - In charge of overseeing a specific task, both on scene and administratively. AC of training, AC of fire prevention ect. On scene you may have a water supply chief, a safety chief, a resources chief ect.

Chief - The boss of the dept. Runs the behind the scene things (working directly with the board, mayor, comish, and or supervisor) makes the SOP and SOG s for the dept ect. On scene the chief is in charge of the big picture and delegates as needed.

That is textbook for large multi-firehouse departments and even still a sergeant position would be redundant. Imagine a sergeant position in a small, single house department, where the current positions cause too many chiefs and not enough Indians?

[38ff 250]

I see a "use" for the rank.. Engineers, Chief Drivers, ect. Someone who the probies can take direction from when there is no white hat around. Doesn't matter, as the Fire Service wont do it, even if it was good for them.

[antiquefirelt 994]

Someone who the probies can take direction from when there is no white hat around.

This generally should be the company officer directly above the probie or his/her senior man. For us an official title would mean a pay grade, testing and required duties, instead the senior man is a position of respect and knowledge without being a direct part of the official chain of command. Much BS from shift to shift is handled by the senior man on one shift speaking to the other on one of the other shifts. They head of issues before they make it to the office, where an official action likely will be started. This clears up tons of little things before they get out of hand. The Sr. man also shows the probie's the ropes and is the go too person for questions about how routine duties are to be completed.

I think there's good reason for non-official "ranks", though I'm not sure how this would work out on the Volunteer or POC side? From what I've seen (locally) most VFD's and POC departments don't need more titles, they need more firefighters. Seems that anyone with FF1 and off probation is wearing a bugle or two and chattering away on the radio...

Edited December 16, 2013 by antiquefirelt

[thebreeze 194]

I see a "use" for the rank.. Engineers, Chief Drivers, ect. Someone who the probies can take direction from when there is no white hat around. Doesn't matter, as the Fire Service wont do it, even if it was good for them.

So what is that "use"? You see the need but what is it? You say someone for the probies to go to when the officer isn't around, well that spot is already filled,a few times over, they can talk to another probie, talk to the guy just above them in terms of time on the job because he just went through what they are going through, or talk to the senior man. Giving a guy a title doesn't mean anything, it doesn't mean he is the right guy to ask. It doesn't take long in the fire service to figure out who you should ask for advice, who is there just filling a spot or who is into the job and cares about doing it well. Most of the time the person with rank isn't who you want to ask for advice anyway, most questions and issues can and should be handled by the men before they make it to the officer.

[markmets415 524]

We do not have a Captain of the Rescue Squad, our head of the unit is 3rd Assistant Chief in Charge of Rescue

[ex-commish 490]

_{There is nothing more valueable than having that senior guy there. I am 50 and been in the fire service for 33 years and I still look to my senior guys for advice and guidance}

[wraftery 1,275]

The Virginia Beach FD has a rank called Master Firefighter. It is not a promotional rank where you take the test and go on a list to be in the running in the position. To qualify, you must have at least 6 years OTJ and have attended a list of required courses such as Ladder Co. Ops, Engine Co Ops, Initial fire attack, and so on. Once you pass the courses, your Company Officer puts you in the officer's seat and he rides the jump seat. The Co. Officer observes and evaluates you until he's satisfied you can handle the position. He then gets approval from Battalion and you get the title. All who pass the procedure become Master FF's.

A Master FF can ride the officer's seat in the absence of an officer ( and Co. Officer duties in house). Pay increases by 10% when appointed as MFF. To take the Captains test, you must have 2 years as a MFF

This kind of makes the position of senior man a little more official and adds a pay incentive. I think it is a pretty good system and recognizes the guy who would otherwise be our "Senior Man"

[Dinosaur 844]

I was just wondering? Why is the chief officer of a fire department called "Chief", but the chief officer of most ambulance corps called "Captain"

Also how come in most fire and EMS agencies there are no NCO (sergeant) ranks and it goes right from firefighter/emt to lieutenant and up

1. You can't compare the fire service to the military where NCO's serve a vital and specific function. The role of Sgt in the PD is different and I don't think is a reasonable comparison.

2. Why not continue to promote from FF to LT? It makes more sense to me. You go from being an FF to a company officer and then can continue moving up in command and leadership positions.

The fire service needs NCOs....

I see a "use" for the rank.. Engineers, Chief Drivers, ect. Someone who the probies can take direction from when there is no white hat around. Doesn't matter, as the Fire Service wont do it, even if it was good for them.

WHY? What possible need is there for more "rank" in the FD? Probies should be looking to the LT's who are the de facto Sgt of the fire service.

[Dinosaur 844]

I see a "use" for the rank.. Engineers, Chief Drivers, ect. Someone who the probies can take direction from when there is no white hat around. Doesn't matter, as the Fire Service wont do it, even if it was good for them.

What the heck is a "chief driver"? Does he drive the chief around?

Engineers have a title: Engineer. If you want to give them more authority, put it in the by-laws.

Edited December 17, 2013 by Dinosaur

[38ff 250]

Our chief driver is the main guy that trains you on driving apparatus, pumping, etc. he tells the chief it you are ready to drive calls or not, after you have done pump ops, EVOC class, etc.

[lt411 145]

The Virginia Beach FD has a rank called Master Firefighter. It is not a promotional rank where you take the test and go on a list to be in the running in the position. To qualify, you must have at least 6 years OTJ and have attended a list of required courses such as Ladder Co. Ops, Engine Co Ops, Initial fire attack, and so on. Once you pass the courses, your Company Officer puts you in the officer's seat and he rides the jump seat. The Co. Officer observes and evaluates you until he's satisfied you can handle the position. He then gets approval from Battalion and you get the title. All who pass the procedure become Master FF's.

A Master FF can ride the officer's seat in the absence of an officer ( and Co. Officer duties in house). Pay increases by 10% when appointed as MFF. To take the Captains test, you must have 2 years as a MFF

This kind of makes the position of senior man a little more official and adds a pay incentive. I think it is a pretty good system and recognizes the guy who would otherwise be our "Senior Man"

Chief- I like the concept, but I would need to know more about all that goes with it. In my last career dept.,I could see the "bean counters" loving this concept. There would be no more overtime for the company officers, and many officer positions would be left unfilled, and "master F/Fs " put in their spot to save money. That is the only negative I see. Otherwise, the concept is great.

[FF1 172]

probies should listen to anything with turnout gear and a pulse. I don't see the need for us to create titles for these people

[SageVigiles 1,194]

We're not just talking about probies. We're talking about mentoring. A GOOD Senior Firefighter should be a mentor in ways an officer cannot.

But I agree we should not necessarily give out titles.

Edited December 17, 2013 by SageVigiles

[gamewell45 258]

What the heck is a "chief driver"? Does he drive the chief around?

Engineers have a title: Engineer. If you want to give them more authority, put it in the by-laws.

when it comes down to it; a title is just that and nothing more; its the job function that really counts and defines the job in the overall picture.

[Dinosaur 844]

Our chief driver is the main guy that trains you on driving apparatus, pumping, etc. he tells the chief it you are ready to drive calls or not, after you have done pump ops, EVOC class, etc.

So it's a trainer that focuses on driving. Do you really need a title for that guy?

[FirNaTine 370]

Some "Senior Men" today don't even deserve that title nor respect. Ive seen the Senior guy know about as much if not less then a Probie these Days. Then again what do we expect if we continue to lower the Standards and just give the Job away!

[AFS1970 504]

I have seen sergeants in one FD outside of Atlanta, I am not sure if the other departments in the area used that rank or not.

As for EMS and Fire comparing, the same could be said for FD & PD using different titles for the same or similar ranks. To top that off each service oten has some ranks that have no equivilent or are otherwise inserted in the structure. As an example here in Stamford there has been in the past a Batalion Chief rank in the FD and a Major rank in the PD, while neither of those jobs are in current use they skew the comparison which was already off by a few. A few years ago they changed the PD Deputy Chiefs to Assistant Chiefs but in doing so they all got another star, which makes the new rank higher than the old one and making equivilent titles harder to figure out.

I know in NJ it was quite common for independant EMS to have a captain as the highest officer but also have sergeants as the lowest. I knew someone who had the odd sounding title of assistant captain, although she wore a single bar like a lieutenant. This was in a combined FD/EMS department but I think EMS had originally been seperate in that town.

I know of two NJ EMS depatments that changed their titles from captain to chief and lieutenant to assistant chief because of the feeling when addressing chief officers in local FD & PD's that they were not being given the respect of their counterparts. One former captain was flat out told he could not attend a townwide "chiefs meeting" because EMS only had a captain.

[thebreeze 194]

Some "Senior Men" today don't even deserve that title nor respect. Ive seen the Senior guy know about as much if not less then a Probie these Days. Then again what do we expect if we continue to lower the Standards and just give the Job away!

There are senior guys, and guys that are just guys with time. There's a huge difference and it doesn't take long to figure out which is which as long as you yourself have your head screwed on straight.

[wraftery 1,275]

Re: Master FF

First of all, VA is a "Right to Work" State (which I consider to be a misnomer, anyway) and public employees are not allowed to engage in Collective Bargaining. Thus, the IAFF local cannot negotiate something like Officer covers Officer. Master FF is a good concept in pointing out the good senior man as opposed to the guy who does not have 20 years experience, but has 1 years experience 20 times. It would difficult, however, to compare it with a state like NY that has collective bargaining.

Second, can it be abused jn NY? Certainly. Can it look like a good thing and backfire on you because of a couple of greedy individuals? Of course. That happens all the time in almost every department .

Personally, I believe that you should have in place a system that has you cover the rank above you (Captain covers Battalion Chief, Lt covers Captain, etc) because it establishes a learning curve to administratively prepare people for promotion. If BCs are only covered by BCs the Captains are inexperienced when promotion time comes around.

That being said, I would like to wish a Merry Christmas to all the Captains out there who are working the BC slot on Christmas Day. The entire Fire Service is led by Captains on Christmas Day because all the BCs took the day off.

Nuff said

[gamewell45 258]

Re: Master FF

First of all, VA is a "Right to Work" State (which I consider to be a misnomer, anyway) and public employees are not allowed to engage in Collective Bargaining.

Right-to-starve would be more accurate.