Volunteers. Employees or non-employees?

[Dinosaur 844]

http://mobile.firehouse.com/news/11267556/obamacare-requires-fire-departments-to-pay-for-volunteers-health-insurance++

Some quotes from the article:

"If the IRS classifies volunteer firefighters and emergency medical personnel as employees in their final rule, fire departments may be unintentionally forced to comply with requirements that could force them to curtail their emergency response activities or close entirely," the chiefs' group says on its website.

Mr. Barletta wrote a letter urging the IRS to write a rule that labels volunteer firefighters as non-employees.

Bruce Moeller, chairman of a task force for the fire chiefs group and head of safety and emergency services for Pinellas County, Fla., said the problem arose because the IRS already considers volunteers as employees and requires all departments to issue W-2 forms for any sort of compensation for volunteers. He's sure Congress did not intend to require volunteer fire departments to offer health insurance when it passed the health law.

Local officials in volunteer departments said they had not heard of the issue or not heard much about it.

One local fire chief said it never occurred to him that volunteers could be considered employees.

John Cudo, a volunteer firefighter and public works department laborer in Taylor and an official with the Northeastern Pennsylvania Volunteer Fireman's Federation, said the possibility caught him by surprise when he heard about it during a firefighters' convention in September. A requirement like that could hurt, but he was unconcerned it will happen.

"We're not employees," he said.

OSHA, another federal agency, has called volunteer FF and EMS employees for years. What will happen now if the IRS says they're not? Will they only be employees when it suits someone?

This is ridiculous and we are taking giant steps backwards. It amazes me that fire chiefs and FF would be so ignorant as to think they are not employers and employees despite the volunteer status. It is 2013, right?

[antiquefirelt 994]

When this first came to light for us we looked into how this affected our POC division and it was pretty clear that the employer doesn't have to offer insurance if the minimum number of average hours is not worked, which for most likely would make this a non-issue.

[FireMedic049 597]

IMO, this thing is nothing more than some people in the volunteer fire service creating a problem where a problem doesn't actually exist.

[v85 212]

I thought, in NYS at least that volunteers were already considered employees for the purposes of workman's comp and OSHA laws.

[Bnechis 3,961]

In NYS they are. And that's been reconfirmed by the courts a number of times

[Dinosaur 844]

In NYS they are. And that's been reconfirmed by the courts a number of times

Barry does that apply federally as well or is that just a NYS thing?

[everybodygoes 331]

Think of what something like this would do to membership! Imagine being able to offer something other than 20 dollars a month for each year of service!

[Bnechis 3,961]

For some things federal it does, other it does not

[Bnechis 3,961]

"Think of what something like this would do for membership!"

In some depts. it could do a lot, but in others it could destroy them.

Some depts. have claimed that LOSAP just keeps dead wood showing up to the fire house for credit, add this and it may be worst.

Also when the budget does not get approved to cover "all" the members what happens? Can you afford to keep everyone? What about the 40+ year members who are no longer able to be firefighters, but they are still members?

If you think this is what is needed, than maybe you think you need to pay volunteers to volunteer, if so that's called; "paid on call" I am not saying this is wrong, just lets call it what it is.

[FFPCogs 863]

Forced compliance with ACA (Obamacare) would sound the death knell for many VFDs, no ifs, ands or buts. I'm all for giving guys as much as we can, but the line has to be drawn somewhere and that somewhere is when the Feds say we MUST do it. If a local electorate chooses to give stipends, LOSAPs, medical insurance or nothing that's their call to make, not Washington's and surely not the IRS's

[Remember585 815]

I'm sure the MENSA contingent on Capitol Hill will add a clause to remove volunteers from the ACA. Not to get political or anything, but ramming the ACA down everyones' throats before working out every angle is typical government stupidity. In due time, people will either look back at this as a great idea, or future governments will do away with it.

Fear not, for our elected leaders can never steer us wrong...

[Bnechis 3,961]

"We have to pass the bill to know what's in it" - N. Pelosi

Well now we know. Who could have possible thought there could be something negative buried in approximately 2409 pages (the house and senate versions are slightly different).

[v85 212]

Does anyone else's department offer them insurance through the town. I know in my agency members who are uninsured or self employed can get insurance through the town.

[gamewell45 258]

Does anyone else's department offer them insurance through the town. I know in my agency members who are uninsured or self employed can get insurance through the town.

I could be wrong, but I believe that under state law, active Volunteer Firefighters can purchase their medical benefits through the town, village or municipality. It's cost neutral to the town, village or municipality; the individual pays the total cost of the premium.

[v85 212]

I know in my town at least that extends to EMS as well. Would this program satisfy the ACA requirements

[velcroMedic1987 330]

I know in my town at least that extends to EMS as well. Would this program satisfy the ACA requirements

Nobody, including the Federal Government, knows what will or won't satisfy the ACA requirements! They're still finding out what the law they passed includes.

[wraftery 1,275]

You could write your Rep/Senator to fix the obamacare law to treat volunteer FF's fairly in light of what they contribute to the community.

or

You could ask the elected officials in DC to cover Vols for nothing, using some money they get out of things like exempting themselves.

or

You could write your Rep/Senator and to repeal ALL 2409 pages of the law they didn't read before they voted. If they don't, we'll find somebody else to vote for.

BUT

Whatever you write will probably not be even read by your elected official. It will be semi-read by a 20-year-old intern and he will send you a form letter

Didn't our forefathers fight a Revolution because they had no representation?

[FFPCogs 863]

You could write your Rep/Senator to fix the obamacare law to treat volunteer FF's fairly in light of what they contribute to the community.

or

You could ask the elected officials in DC to cover Vols for nothing, using some money they get out of things like exempting themselves.

or

You could write your Rep/Senator and to repeal ALL 2409 pages of the law they didn't read before they voted. If they don't, we'll find somebody else to vote for.

BUT

Whatever you write will probably not be even read by your elected official. It will be semi-read by a 20-year-old intern and he will send you a form letter

Didn't our forefathers fight a Revolution because they had no representation?

or

Maybe we all should just tell the folks in DC to go F**K themselves cause we're tired of them f**king us!!

Edited December 9, 2013 by FFPCogs

[velcroMedic1987 330]

or

Maybe we all should just tell the folks in DC to go F**K themselves cause we're tired of them f**king us!!

And we should stlil do step 4 and vote them all out of office!

[AFS1970 504]

Didn't our forefathers fight a Revolution because they had no representation?

Just think, if we had been given seats in Parliament, we'd still be drinking tea.

Then again we got rid of "No taxation without Representation" the minute we allowed states to tax non-residents who worked there without letting them vote in both states.

[velcroMedic1987 330]

Just think, if we had been given seats in Parliament, we'd still be drinking tea.

Then again we got rid of "No taxation without Representation" the minute we allowed states to tax non-residents who worked there without letting them vote in both states.

One person, one vote. I don't think you should vote twice (or more times) just because you're taxed. So if I own properties in multiple states, I should be allowed to vote in each state? That's nuts!

[antiquefirelt 994]

Just think, if we had been given seats in Parliament, we'd still be drinking tea.

We wouldn't need 38 page threads on regionalization of the fire service, either.

[Ga-Lin 86]

Forced compliance with ACA (Obamacare) would sound the death knell for many VFDs, no ifs, ands or buts. I'm all for giving guys as much as we can, but the line has to be drawn somewhere and that somewhere is when the Feds say we MUST do it. If a local electorate chooses to give stipends, LOSAPs, medical insurance or nothing that's their call to make, not Washington's and surely not the IRS's

Just heard/saw on the TV last night that the US Treasury (IRS) will be exempt VFF from complying with the ACA (Obamacare).

[Dinosaur 844]

Just curious but can an agency issue an exemption from a statute? Wouldn't that have to come from the legislative branch in the form of a revision or amendment to the law?

[FireMedic049 597]

Just curious but can an agency issue an exemption from a statute? Wouldn't that have to come from the legislative branch in the form of a revision or amendment to the law?

I can't say for sure, but I would imagine that in this specific incident, it may not be a case of the agency actually exempting a group from the law, but rather issuing a statement of finding regarding their interpretation of the law.

The center of the issue falls to how much of an "employee" is a volunteer (firefighter or EMS provider) and to an extent, who's "employee" are they. The whole idea of thinking that volunteers could be enough of an employee to qualify for healthcare coverage under the ACA, but not enough of an employee to require payment of wages for time worked on behalf of the organization under federal wage law is mind boggling to me.

So, it could simply be a case of determining that the law doesn't actually apply to the volunteers rather than determining that the law does apply to them and then deciding to actually exempt the volunteers from it.

I believe that there was never any intention for the healthcare mandate to include people actually volunteering their time to an organization and that this was only an "issue" because people associated with the volunteer fire service made it an issue.

[somebuffyguy 190]

http://www.nj.com/business/index.ssf/2014/01/volunteer_firefighters_exempted_from_obamacare_insurance_mandate.html

There we go.