Westchester Front Line Apparatus 15 Years of Age and Older

[x635 4,066]

What front line apparatus in Westchester is 15 years of age or older. And of these apparatus, are any replacements on order or pending?

Here's the two I know offhand. I know that there's been talk of them being replaced, but I don't know if they actually are in the process.

Ardsley Engine 164, 1992 Spartan Gladiator/Beck

Elmsford FD Quint 2/TL 21, 1993 Pierce Arrow 100' RM TL

Feel free to add in!

[RES24CUE 168]

Golden's Bridge

Engine 138 - 1968 CF Mack (Re-furbed in 1987)

Engine 140 - 1994 Pierce (1st Due Engine)

Tanker 1 - 1988 White (Replacement on Order)

[CFI609D 119]

Irvington E-178 is a 1993 Pierce

[BmSmall92 1]

Briarcliff Engine 92 1995 Pierce

Engine 93 1991 Simon Duplex

[AntMan 16]

Larchmont Fire
1993 Seagrave
1982 GMC Medium Duty Rescue
1991 Pierce Arrow
1996 Sutphen Tower ladder

Edited December 3, 2013 by AntMan

[Res30cue 5]

Purchase Engine 239, 1978 Seagrave. will most likely not be replaced when taken out of service.

Edited December 3, 2013 by Res30cue

[recoiloperated 16]

Chappaqua

E146 1993 Pierce

R23 1984 Mack/Rescue1

Edited December 3, 2013 by recoiloperated

[mymack1 38]

Sleepy Hollow Tower Ladder 38 a 1995 Sutphen 90'

[Bnechis 3,961]

So far that's almost 8 million in replacement cost and there are only 9 out of 59 depts. listed. Good thing the tax payers are willing to keep digging deeper to pay for rigs that in many cases have difficulty getting out the door with proper staffing.

How much $$$ are we going to spend before we agree that every square mile in Westchester does not need 3 engines a tower ladder and a rescue?

[mfc2257 464]

So far that's almost 8 million in replacement cost and there are only 9 out of 59 depts. listed. Good thing the tax payers are willing to keep digging deeper to pay for rigs that in many cases have difficulty getting out the door with proper staffing.

How much $$$ are we going to spend before we agree that every square mile in Westchester does not need 3 engines a tower ladder and a rescue?

Amen

[ttomcap 18]

Amen

Pelham Manor 80 Mack and 95 Spartan

[FF1 172]

Larchmont FD

Engine 33 1993 Seagrave

Engine 34 1991 Pierce

Tower Ladder 7 1996 Sutphen

[61MACKBR1 222]

Barry - Could not have said it any better. Until "EVERYONE" in the County of Westchester wakes up and realizes that there is a more cost effective way to "safely" ensure that lives and property could be protected by a Centralized County-Run Fire Department, then taxpayers will continue to dish out more money for apparatus that are not effectively being used or deployed. I will continue to say it on EMTBravo.net. A County-Run Fire Department would elliminate any of the Mutual Aide issues that continue to effect many communities in the county (ie: recent issues in Mount Vernon for example). How can this be done? Many things (administratively and politically) would have to fall into place. The biggest hurdle is the "Home Rule" that would need to be abolished in New York State.

There is no need to have, as Barry has said "3 Engines, a Tower Ladder and a Rescue" in small villages and towns, where those communites (From Purchase to Ardsley - From Hastings to Cold Springs) could have the resources already available right inside the county, from some of the bigger cities (Yonkers, New Rochelle, White Plains, etc)

Strategically placed apparatus, manned by full time personnel, throughout the county would be the most effective way to have a County Run Fire Department.

So far that's almost 8 million in replacement cost and there are only 9 out of 59 depts. listed. Good thing the tax payers are willing to keep digging deeper to pay for rigs that in many cases have difficulty getting out the door with proper staffing.

How much $$$ are we going to spend before we agree that every square mile in Westchester does not need 3 engines a tower ladder and a rescue?

[rescue40 30]

port chester rescue 40 1994 pierce heavy rescue, engine 59 1995 pierce engine, engine 60 1990 pierce engine. our tower ladder and two more engine will be 15 years in a few months. all of these rigs are front line. theres been talk about replacement but money is always the concern so Im not gonna get exicted

[cazyman31 2]

Mount Kisco

Engine 102- 1984 Mack

Engine 103- 1993 Pierce

[x635 4,066]

Tanker 1 - 1988 White (Replacement on Order)

What's it being replaced with?

[KJ8806 44]

Peekskill FD Engine 131 1993 Pierce Arrow not sure when or if or will be replaced due to money issues

[Bnechis 3,961]

So since my last post add $6.6 million to the 8 million.........................

[DaRock98 76]

Hawthorne TL-12 1983 Pierce (being replaced with a Sutphen Rescue Pumper)

E-155 1997 Pierce

[Bnechis 3,961]

"4 Guys Tanker with the chassis of Spartan ERV"

Spartan ERV does not make chassis, they make the apparatus. The chassis is a Spartan, which owns Spartan ERV, but that is run as an independent company that competes with 4 guys and others

[sympathomedic 383]

Somer engine 188- a 10 wheeled tanker pumper, I believe to be replaced with a similar unit- so add on another 3/4 mill or so.

BUT- why is it that these units need to be considered for replacement after 15 years of light service? (Let me guess, Barry, the NFPA again?)

If a rig is 15 years old and has 30,000 miles and 1,500 hours on its diesel, and 150 hours on its pump, and lived in a warm dry bay, why is it that the unit needs to be retired?

I have heard that over-the-road trucks last 10 years at 100,000 miles/year- same diesel, same drive train?

I know little, can someone enlighten me?

[Bnechis 3,961]

Bill, some good questions.

2 very different issues:

Minimal use vehicles have major problems with rot, particularly to seals, gaskets, tires etc. Also diesel motors are designed for long distance high speed running in the long haul trucks. They need to be brought up to operating temperature. The worst thing you can do with a diesel , is start it up occasionally, running it hard without warm up, running it for 15-30 minutes then shutting down for a day or two is best way to kill a diesel motor.

NFPA 1901 says that after 15 years the vehicle needs to be upgraded to current safety standards, their is no requirement to replace until 25 years. The cost to upgrade may not be worth it on a 15 year old vehicle. The safety upgrades that are now required include new designs on seat belts, automatic traction control, electronic brake control, speed governor, and others, the most important new safety issue, particularly for a tanker or other very heavy unit is stability control and testing on a tilt table. Many tankers are involved in deadly roll overs because they lack these safety features.

[sympathomedic 383]

Let me preface this by saying that I am way out of my comfort zone here. All I know about firetrucks I learned by reading the owners manuals, the apparatus columns in Firehouse and FireRescue magazines, hearing guys complain and, on occasion, having to drive them when there are no real firemen around to do it. I profess no expertise.

Now, it seems odd to have to spend above $500,000 to buy a whole new rig just to get new seals and gaskets and tires. My car lives outside and has 220,000 miles on it, AC works great and has never been touched. Could it cost 1/10 of that ($50,000) to replace every bad seal, gasket and tire on a truck? I wonder what it would cost to make the truck bay into a giant humidor to prevent rot- and guys could store their cigars in there.

About 2005 we did get rid of a 1978 truck, re-built in 1985, due to frame rust- I may be off a bit on the dates. You have seen many many more trucks come and go than I have, but I cannot recall hearing of an agency trading in a rig due to a bad diesel. Maybe twice I have heard of a a "blown" engine- and it is usually sent out for engine re-build.

Dumb question#2 How often are there safety upgrades, and what makes it an official upgrade? Can they say, "Look! new, brighter more visible red paint! Everybody must upgrade!" Suppose 15 years go by and the safety of a 15 year old rig is still acceptable? Or are "upgrades" released in times to maximize sales?

[recoiloperated 16]

Let me preface this by saying that I am way out of my comfort zone here. All I know about firetrucks I learned by reading the owners manuals, the apparatus columns in Firehouse and FireRescue magazines, hearing guys complain and, on occasion, having to drive them when there are no real firemen around to do it. I profess no expertise.

Now, it seems odd to have to spend above $500,000 to buy a whole new rig just to get new seals and gaskets and tires. My car lives outside and has 220,000 miles on it, AC works great and has never been touched. Could it cost 1/10 of that ($50,000) to replace every bad seal, gasket and tire on a truck? I wonder what it would cost to make the truck bay into a giant humidor to prevent rot- and guys could store their cigars in there.

About 2005 we did get rid of a 1978 truck, re-built in 1985, due to frame rust- I may be off a bit on the dates. You have seen many many more trucks come and go than I have, but I cannot recall hearing of an agency trading in a rig due to a bad diesel. Maybe twice I have heard of a a "blown" engine- and it is usually sent out for engine re-build.

Dumb question#2 How often are there safety upgrades, and what makes it an official upgrade? Can they say, "Look! new, brighter more visible red paint! Everybody must upgrade!" Suppose 15 years go by and the safety of a 15 year old rig is still acceptable? Or are "upgrades" released in times to maximize sales?

From what little I've seen it's generally the turbos and/or transmission and not the engine itself that wear out first due to the uneven heating/lack of use cited previously. As for the safety upgrades, those are spec'd by the NFPA not the manufacturers so sales shouldn't have anything to do with it, barring any impropriety on the part of the NFPA authors. Some upgrades (red seat belts, red/yellow rear chevrons, reflective panels on the interior of doors...) can easily be added to an existing rig for minimal cost. Adding stability control to a rig that doesn't even have ABS to begin with essentially requires re-engineering the truck's braking system; at that point it's up to your chiefs whether it's worth a $100,000 overhaul plus time out of service or just time to trade it on a shiny new model.

[Bnechis 3,961]

Now lets go at it in a different direction. instead of replacing it because it is old/outdated on the safety issues, I know depts. that have calculated the maintenance cost (which skyrocket after about 7 years on most rigs) and have also looked at the resale value and determined that it is financially best to keep rigs in frontline service for 8 years, then 2 years as a spare and sell it BEFORE its 10th birthday. After that the resale drops by up to 25%.

Another issue is after 15 years getting replacement parts on custom apparatus is a major problem, particularly if the manufacture goes bankrupt (think American LaFrance, Simon Duplex and others). Hard to explain to the community why the fire truck is out of service for 3 months waiting for a replacement door handle.

Its called a fleet management plan and they have determined its the lest costly over time. To make it really work you need a large fleet, but that's not how we work.

[sympathomedic 383]

From what I understand, and I don't know how to verify/disprove it, apparatus makers are all members of the NFPA. Hmmmm... Barry- can you shed some light?

[RES24CUE 168]

As stated above, It is supposed to be replaced by a 4 Guys Tanker with the chassis of Spartan ERV

Negative...I believe it is going to be a KME with the Predator Chassis and an aluminum tank. More modern variation of the current Tanker 1.

[Remember585 815]

Croton-on-Hudson:

Rescue 18 - 1993 International/Cayel Craft - committee working on replacement, slated for 2014/2015 Fiscal Year.

Engine 118 - 1993 HME/Saulsbury - committee working on replacement, slated for 2015/2016 Fiscal Year.

[Bnechis 3,961]

Bill its easy to verify. I just looked at the list for the 1901 standard, there are 28 members, plus NFPA staff. 7 represent apparatus manufacturers. The rest do not. Also what ever they recommend goes to the full membership for vote and they get 1,000's of votes, so again its not Hmmmmmm

Note: same thing pointed out in the why do ambulances have to meet NFPA thread.

[ptwatson 82]

Eastchester Ladder 15 a 1987 Seagrave.....this was the spare truck until the fiasco with station 5!