Aircraft accidents: Who is in charge?

[Morningjoe 162]

Scenario:

Aircraft crash lands into a residential neighborhood in NYS. The neighborhood is covered by a Town Police Department, Volunteer Fire District which does not provide EMS, and Volunteer BLS EMS agency, paid Medics.

Is the scene a crime scene,or is it an accident scene? At what point, if it does change from an accident to crime, does that happen? Are the Police in charge from the get go, or is the Fire Department? If the Police on location claim its a crime scene before the fire department arrives, does that mean it's a crime scene?

[ex-commish 490]

Unified command?

[newsbuff 286]

Unified command?

And this is where NIMS comes in. Many branches within one command.

[10512 214]

The short answer is that it is an emergency until the fire(s) are out, and all aideds are removed.

Once the emergency is over, then it becomes an investigation.

The real answer is a bit more complicated, depending on many issues and personalities, so lets stick with the short answer for now.

[E106MKFD 56]

Wouldn't the Fire Chief would act as overall incident commander until the hazards on the scene are mitigated? Law Enforcement and EMS would sit in the command structure as liaisons to the IC and commanders of their respective branch such as triage and security.

After hazards have been mitigated the command structure shifts from rescue and recovery mode to investigation and Law Enforcement would transition to the overall IC. Once hazards are mitigated at any major transportation crash (Train/Bus) the scene becomes an investigation or crime scene for lack of a better term. Once the NTSB and or law enforcement deems it non criminal in nature scene command can be terminated and a clean up of the scene to commence.

[SageVigiles 1,194]

Legally, in CT the senior Fire Officer has command of any emergency. The exception being if there is a terrorism nexus, in which the FBI runs the show.

That being said, if the initial IC doesn't set up a Unified Command, he or she is setting themselves up for failure.

[ex-commish 490]

Not to diminish the original question as to who is in charge if an aircraft crash lands the bigger question is who is prepared?

[velcroMedic1987 330]

It is a accident scene. It never changes from a accident to crime. As always, police are first responders and then FD arrives. Sometimes the Fire Department that responds requests mutual aid.

Not true. Many vehicle crashes (whether aircraft, car/truck/bus, rail, or boat) are considered crime scenes. It depends on the circumstances. Most commercial aircraft crashes are considered crime scenes until it is determined that the cause was not criminal/terrorism. Failure to consider this from the outset may result in the loss of critical evidence.

It doesn't matter who arrives first.

[velcroMedic1987 330]

Scenario:

Aircraft crash lands into a residential neighborhood in NYS. The neighborhood is covered by a Town Police Department, Volunteer Fire District which does not provide EMS, and Volunteer BLS EMS agency, paid Medics.

Is the scene a crime scene,or is it an accident scene? At what point, if it does change from an accident to crime, does that happen? Are the Police in charge from the get go, or is the Fire Department? If the Police on location claim its a crime scene before the fire department arrives, does that mean it's a crime scene?

Wouldn't it be nice if we could all play nice in the sandbox and not proclaim "I am in charge" and instead work together to resolve the incident together?

What if it is a person shot? Is that a crime scene? Who's in command?

What if it is an arson fire? Is that a crime scene? Who's in command?

And so on, and so on, and so on.

It shouldn't matter what the nature of the emergency is, we should all be able to work together - ideally as HFD said - in a unified command. Fact of the matter is I've never see unified command work the way its supposed to because we still cling to the "I'm in charge" "this is my fiefdom" mentality.

If PD designates something a crime scene, it is a crime scene. To ignore that may result in big problems down the road. Above all, communicate and cooperate!

[Bnechis 3,961]

Now who would consider an aircraft accident to be a hazmat incident, fuel, hydraulic fluids, cargo, O2 generators, etc.?

Federal law is very clear as to the training levels required off the incident commander at a hazmat incident. It is also clear that all firefighters are legally required to meet the standard, but law enforcement is not required to meet it (not saying they can not meet it, just not required to). So if they do not meet the standard, who is incharge?

What if it is a person shot? Is that a crime scene? Who's in command?

The guy with the gun

[velcroMedic1987 330]

The short answer is that it is an emergency until the fire(s) are out, and all aideds are removed.

Once the emergency is over, then it becomes an investigation.

The real answer is a bit more complicated, depending on many issues and personalities, so lets stick with the short answer for now.

Your short answer fails to take into account that waiting until "the emergency is over" may result in the loss of evidence, potential witnesses, etc. The real answer is we have to work together and collaborate from the start.

What if there is no fire from the plane crash (Avianca, 1990)?

[velcroMedic1987 330]

Now who would consider an aircraft accident to be a hazmat incident, fuel, hydraulic fluids, cargo, O2 generators, etc.?

Federal law is very clear as to the training levels required off the incident commander at a hazmat incident. It is also clear that all firefighters are legally required to meet the standard, but law enforcement is not required to meet it (not saying they can not meet it, just not required to). So if they do not meet the standard, who is incharge?

What if the police officer on scene meets the standards, arrived first, and is properly managing the incident (I know, not very likely but it could happen, especially if the PO is also involved in an FD somewhere else)?

Now what happens when the newly minted FD chief arrives and doesn't meet the standards?

[SageVigiles 1,194]

This video should pretty much sum things up, unfortunately its a short version but you'll get the idea:

Hats of Incident Management

Edited November 20, 2013 by SageVigiles

[calhobs 110]

This video should pretty much sum things up, unfortunately its a short version but you'll get the idea:

Hats of Incident Management

Great video we use it when we teach ICS 300

[SageVigiles 1,194]

Great video we use it when we teach ICS 300

That's actually where I saw it, took the class last month so the video is fresh in my head. Good for a chuckle and drives the point home.

Edited November 20, 2013 by SageVigiles

[Bnechis 3,961]

1) What if the police officer on scene meets the standards, arrived first, and is properly managing the incident (I know, not very likely but it could happen, especially if the PO is also involved in an FD somewhere else)?

2) Now what happens when the newly minted FD chief arrives and doesn't meet the standards?

1) then their is no issue with the federal law

2) Then he should not be chief, new or otherwise. The biggest requirement is that ALL firefighters must have the training BEFORE they respond to any call, even as a probie.

[mreis95 77]

Where would one get the list of requirements for a Fire Chief/IC?

[velcroMedic1987 330]

Where would one get the list of requirements for a Fire Chief/IC?

If you're talking about the OSHA requirements for IC (not necessarily fire chief) at a haz-mat incident, they're in 29 CFR 1910.120(q)(6)(v).

If you're talking about the list of requirements to be a local fire chief, that's probably up to each and every department, company, and district 'cause we don't do anything the same (except of course on the career side, where every fire officer in the state goes through the same training at FDNY but that's training not requirements.

[BFD389RET 112]

1) then their is no issue with the federal law

2) Then he should not be chief, new or otherwise. The biggest requirement is that ALL firefighters must have the training BEFORE they respond to any call, even as a probie.

what if the 1st person on the scene is a Past Volly Chief and taxpayer in the neighboring town, village etc.. and works for NTSB By day THEN WHAT????

[Bnechis 3,961]

what if the 1st person on the scene is a Past Volly Chief and taxpayer in the neighboring town, village etc.. and works for NTSB By day THEN WHAT????

Are you kidding?

If its someone not from the dispatch to this incident, it does not matter who it is, they are not in charge.

If their role is NTSB, than that's their role. NTSB is not in charge of an incident, they are in charge of the investigation.

[dwcfireman 656]

Scenario:

Aircraft crash lands into a residential neighborhood in NYS. The neighborhood is covered by a Town Police Department, Volunteer Fire District which does not provide EMS, and Volunteer BLS EMS agency, paid Medics.

Is the scene a crime scene,or is it an accident scene? At what point, if it does change from an accident to crime, does that happen? Are the Police in charge from the get go, or is the Fire Department? If the Police on location claim its a crime scene before the fire department arrives, does that mean it's a crime scene?

As an AIrcraft Rescue Firefighter, let me shed some light to this issue....

Even though it is more than definitely an accident scene, it is ALWAYS a crime scene. When the proper investigation authority comes in (FAA if the aircraft weighs less than 12,500lbs, NTSB if 12,500lbs or more), they're expecting to know abslutely everything about the accident. They want to know what position the throttle was in, which switches were in what position, what you did to mitigate the situation, the size of everybody's boots, what years your gloves were manufactured, etc. Literally everything! It is a crime scene! There are very few exceptions to where you can deviate from the federal regulations regarding aircraft accidents (such as local sherriff or police have authority to remove an aircraft from major roadways before FAA is on scene).

Since it is an accident, the local fire and EMS authorities will have jurisdiction until the scene is stabilized, then command is tranferred police officials once all hazards have been deemed safe and all victims have been transported. Mind you, even though the police have taken over, it's still every agencies' responsibility for the scene and what happened.

Let's look at the Cessna 206 that crashed behind MBIA in Armonk. When the crash initially occured, it was Armonk FD & EMS in charge. Once the fire was out and all vicitms were deemed DOA, the situation was handed over to North Castle PD. However, the property actually belonged to the NYC DEP, so DEP Police guarded the scene while FAA and NTSB responded for the investigation (NTSB always investigates fatal accidents). Once the FAA and NTSB were done, the DEP PD were in charge of the removal of the aircraft remains.

In Short, treat an aircraft accident as an MCI, and always treat as a crime scene (BECAUSE IT IS ALWAYS A CRIME SCENE!). Preserve the scene as best as you can and assist the FAA/NTSB in every way you can.

[BFD389RET 112]

Are you kidding?

If its someone not from the dispatch to this incident, it does not matter who it is, they are not in charge.

If their role is NTSB, than that's their role. NTSB is not in charge of an incident, they are in charge of the investigation.

Are you kidding?

If its someone not from the dispatch to this incident, it does not matter who it is, they are not in charge.

If their role is NTSB, than that's their role. NTSB is not in charge of an incident, they are in charge of the investigation.

YES IN FACT I was kidding ... ...