WCDES Radio System Replacement

[x635 4,066]

In today's Westchester County 2014 Budget release, one of the capital items was replacement of the radio system.

$6,000,000 was budgeted

The Department of Information Technology oversees the design, implementation, and management of large mission critical radio systems used by the Departments of Emergency Services, Public Safety, Public Works, and Transportation. These systems are used by first responders and other governmental personnel to ensure safety of life and property and enable delivery of vital services to the citizens of Westchester County. This capital project will begin the process of specifying, designing, procuring, and implementing replacements for the Trunked Systems, the F1 and F3 systems and at least the radio component of the CAD/AVL systems so that transitions to the replacement systems can be completed before the end of 2018.

Source: http://www3.westchestergov.com/images/stories/budget/2014/2014ProposedCapital_SectionC1.pdf

However, a much needed renovation and expansion of 60 Control still appears on hold in the budget. I was hoping to see a brand new standalone facility for 60 Control in this year's capital budget, but still nothing. Everything gets renovated and upgraded around them at DES, they are doing more work then ever in the same cramped and obsolete facility. I don't understand why this item keeps getting overlooked, year after year. AND, they are working with less staff then they had 10 years ago, when they had 50% less workload. Not only would it improve operations, a new from-scratch modern facility would improve morale, and possibly help with staff retention. So much for the people who operate above said radio system.

[res6cue 67]

The county is looking to build out a 700 MHz P25 Phase II system (same type of system as Rockland).

It will replace the current Motorola trunked system, and will have transmitters at the same 9 sites that the current trunked system occupies. Unlike the current trunked systems, there will not be "North" and "South" zones, instead it will be a simulcast system that will cover the entire county.

The system will be comprised of 12 frequencies, however because this system is Phase II and uses TDMA technology, each voice frequency gets divided into 2 time slots which allows for double the amount of voice channel capacity. The control channel occupies a full single frequency on its own, which leaves 11 frequencies available for voice transmission. TDMA technology means there will be 22 voice channels available. Contrast that with the current system, which has 12 frequencies. Because there is a North and South zone, there are 2 frequencies dedicated for each zone's control channel. That leaves just 10 frequencies for voice traffic, 5 on each zone. The new system will double that capacity + 2 additional voice channels.

For comparison, Rockland's system is a 10 site, 10 frequency simulcast (18 voice channels).

[87D124 37]

Looks like the same type of system that Orange County has planned.

[res6cue 67]

Yes, although Orange County's system will mix 700 and 800 MHz frequencies on the same system for additional capacity (reusing the 800 MHz frequencies currently in use on the EDACS system). 700 and 800 MHz are considered the same band on these systems, easily intermixed.

[Bnechis 3,961]

But does this budget cover enough radios per dept. or like last time will depts. get left with not enough radios to get the job done, thus make the system a waste of time/$$

[E106MKFD 56]

The radio system is fine!!! If it works it is ok. Seth, I do remember them going to expand. Is the new roof on there yet?

Not really. Is it functional? Yes it is and it works relatively well on the day to day but during a prolonged operation or an incident with multiple jurisdictions operating it does not. Technology wise the trunked system in Westchester was already old technology by the time it was fully implemented. Radio systems take years to build as well as much research and development. The radio system may seem "fine" but it is growing old and to implement a new system will take years. Within the technology world, specifically radio systems, you need to keep updating systems before they do become antiquated and don't work.

Besides its functionality Westchester Dept's are doing more and more runs and are covering each other on the county's radio systems. This upgrade will allow more talk around on more channels. I think this is a needed upgrade and I am happy to see it in the budget. Hopefully they look into funding more for DES in the future. They need it!

[LTNRFD 266]

Now the important question.......Will my Uniden Trunk Tracker III work with the new system?

[hatr1k 6]

Now the important question.......Will my Uniden Trunk Tracker III work with the new system?

You will need a scanner capable of scanning APCO P25.

[shfirefighter 19]

Radios confuse me.

[res6cue 67]

Now the important question.......Will my Uniden Trunk Tracker III work with the new system?

No, it will not. This will be a digital system, Trunk Tracker III's are only capable of scanning analog systems.

You will need a scanner capable of scanning APCO P25.

It will also need to be Phase II TDMA capable. As I type this post, the only scanner capable of that is the GRE PSR-800. Uniden is announcing new scanner models in about 2 hours, and it's expected that they will decode Phase II TDMA, but hasn't been confirmed yet. None of Uniden's current models will work on the system (HomePatrol-1, BCD396XT, BCD996XT, etc.).

[everybodygoes 331]

APCO 25 is not TDMA. TDMA is totally different. But get ready for garbled nonsense you can't understand. Digital systems suck. You can not understand people. And you need another 500 dollar scanner to listen to the same automatic alarm notifications over and over and over and over again! But they won't ever be able to get rid of the pager notification frequency. So low band it is!

[Jybehofd 85]

As long as we can all talk when the s*** hits the fan. It's still a pain in the ass working on a scene where people don't want to switch or can't because it would mean having multiple radios for just a single unit

[res6cue 67]

APCO 25 is not TDMA. TDMA is totally different. But get ready for garbled nonsense you can't understand. Digital systems suck. You can not understand people. And you need another 500 dollar scanner to listen to the same automatic alarm notifications over and over and over and over again! But they won't ever be able to get rid of the pager notification frequency. So low band it is!

APCO 25 Phase II systems use TDMA technology, so I'm not exactly sure what you're trying to say. That's exactly what Rockland's system is, P25 Phase II TDMA. The system does not "suck"...but you're obviously entitled to your own opinion.

[Morningjoe 162]

We going to be able to get MDTs in the rig, and maybe a "rip and run" system?

[E106MKFD 56]

I didn't realize this system would be an APCO 25 system. I have knowledge of radio systems and scanning but get a little confused when it comes to the digital world. If the county switches to the new system would it be a similar system to what the Connecticut State Police and MTA Police is trying to implement? I thought the MTA PD would be trying to switch to an APCO 25 system and if so I believe they have already put up some transmitters with some other agencies currently operating in a test phase.

I hope so because it would be great to have more agencies using similar radio systems for redundancy and inter-operations.

Related article:

http://www.radioreference.com/apps/db/?sid=832&siteSort=county

[hatr1k 6]

Uniden has introduced ( available January 2014) two new scanners. The BCD536HP and BCD436HP that will be P25 Phase II TDMA capable.

[E106MKFD 56]

Uniden has introduced ( available January 2014) two new scanners. The BCD536HP and BCD436HP that will be P25 Phase II TDMA capable.

I believe this may have been posted somewhere else but I think it is relevant to this thread as well. For those looking into the new scanners here is the product review from Uniden:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zGPEEGw5NzE

[res6cue 67]

I didn't realize this system would be an APCO 25 system. I have knowledge of radio systems and scanning but get a little confused when it comes to the digital world. If the county switches to the new system would it be a similar system to what the Connecticut State Police and MTA Police is trying to implement? I thought the MTA PD would be trying to switch to an APCO 25 system and if so I believe they have already put up some transmitters with some other agencies currently operating in a test phase.

I hope so because it would be great to have more agencies using similar radio systems for redundancy and inter-operations.

Related article:

http://www.radioreference.com/apps/db/?sid=832&siteSort=county

The CSP system you linked to is a Motorola Type II, which is the same as the current Westchester system. The new CSERN system is P25, however it's Phase I not Phase II.

Rockland's new 700 MHz system is P25 Phase II, which is what Westchester (and Orange) are looking to implement.

http://www.radioreference.com/apps/db/?sid=7128

Uniden has introduced ( available January 2014) two new scanners. The BCD536HP and BCD436HP that will be P25 Phase II TDMA capable.

I believe this may have been posted somewhere else but I think it is relevant to this thread as well. For those looking into the new scanners here is the product review from Uniden:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zGPEEGw5NzE

Also here: http://info.uniden.com/NewScanners

[hatr1k 6]

Does anyone know if this new system will work with the XTL series radio's that are part of the current system?

[res6cue 67]

Does anyone know if this new system will work with the XTL series radio's that are part of the current system?

Negative, they operate on totally different frequency bands and are not compatible. The current system operates in the UHF T-Band (470-478 MHz), whereas the new system operates in the 700 MHz band.

By the way, to expand a little on Seth's post...$6 million is budgeted for 2014, however the total budget for the system is (at least) $30 million over the next 5 years.

Rockland's system was around the same cost, with approximately $12 million of it going towards the price of the radios (90 base stations, 850 mobiles, 1,600 portables). Rockland's system cost also factored in 6 UHF fireground receivers each at all 10 sites, as well as a 10-site simulcast UHF fire paging system...so it's not really an apples to apples comparison with Westchester, but gives you some idea of the cost of the radios.

[Jybehofd 85]

so would the roll out be for the north or the south first? I know alot of departments in the south use there own frequencies and in some cases have there own dispatchers too. Then utilize the trunk for mutal aid runs. where north of 287 there is only one department with its own frequency and dispatchers... well for now that is, who knows what the future holds.

[FFRXing 0]

The CSP system you linked to is a Motorola Type II, which is the same as the current Westchester system. The new CSERN system is P25, however it's Phase I not Phase II.

Rockland's new 700 MHz system is P25 Phase II, which is what Westchester (and Orange) are looking to implement.

http://www.radioreference.com/apps/db/?sid=7128

Also here: http://info.uniden.com/NewScanners

theres one BIG difference between the CSP trunk system, and the current Westchester trunk system..... CSP is digital

[res6cue 67]

theres one BIG difference between the CSP trunk system, and the current Westchester trunk system..... CSP is digital

The CSP system uses the P25 CAI for talkgroup voice, but the system itself is fundamentally the same as the current Westchester system. I agree, though, analog vs digital voice is obviously a significant difference (especially when it means a few hundred dollar difference between an analog or digital scanner!)

[FFRXing 0]

you got that right!

[Morningjoe 162]

Also, who will own the radios? Will the county or individual departments? Westchester vs. Putnam comes to mind....

Will 60- Control hear fireground communications, aka mayday transmissions from the firefighters?

Will all current portables have to be switched over or will the county fire grounds still be in use?

Edit: will the IC still have to carry two sometimes 3 (depending on the municipality) radios around?

I'm all in favor of a new system if it designed right and will work with all departments, all the time across the board. If this system will allow fire/ems possibly police dispatch, along with fireground channels, individual department frequencies, all programmed into a single radio where I can select between Somers fire ground, county fire ground 3, elmsford fire, Yonkers dispatch, UCALL/UTAC, all without having to pick up additional radios, or worry about what channel has each frequency depending on each department, then I'm all for it. If individual departments want to operate on a home channel, that's perfectly fine, but if I'm called mutual aid to you, I better be able to talk to you with what ever radio I am bringing with me.

Edited November 17, 2013 by Morningjoe

[hatr1k 6]

Negative, they operate on totally different frequency bands and are not compatible. The current system operates in the UHF T-Band (470-478 MHz), whereas the new system operates in the 700 MHz band.

By the way, to expand a little on Seth's post...$6 million is budgeted for 2014, however the total budget for the system is (at least) $30 million over the next 5 years.

Rockland's system was around the same cost, with approximately $12 million of it going towards the price of the radios (90 base stations, 850 mobiles, 1,600 portables). Rockland's system cost also factored in 6 UHF fireground receivers each at all 10 sites, as well as a 10-site simulcast UHF fire paging system...so it's not really an apples to apples comparison with Westchester, but gives you some idea of the cost of the radios.

Yep I overlooked the frequencies which would have given me the answer. Thanks for the info.

[res6cue 67]

Yep I overlooked the frequencies which would have given me the answer. Thanks for the info.

No problem! In addition to the different frequency bands, none of the older model XTL or XTS radios are compatible with the new Phase II TDMA systems, so they wouldn't have worked anyway.

[E106MKFD 56]

The CSP system you linked to is a Motorola Type II, which is the same as the current Westchester system. The new CSERN system is P25, however it's Phase I not Phase II.

Rockland's new 700 MHz system is P25 Phase II, which is what Westchester (and Orange) are looking to implement.

http://www.radioreference.com/apps/db/?sid=7128

Also here: http://info.uniden.com/NewScanners

Thanks so much for laying this out for us. Much easier to grasp the full context of the update.

Not to push the thread into any other direction but it would be nice to unify all the county departments under this new system. With more and more mutual aid occurring and some larger scale operations I think it causes more work for everyone to have departments that continue to operate their own systems. Plus if you look at the new system you can't even complain that there won't be room for a department with large call volume. More voice channels equals more space to fit practically all Westchester Depts.

I may be dreaming but I would want to have everyone using and practicing the new system whether North or South of I-287. Maybe someday we can work on the paging frequencies too.

[Bnechis 3,961]

Thanks so much for laying this out for us. Much easier to grasp the full context of the update.

Not to push the thread into any other direction but it would be nice to unify all the county departments under this new system. With more and more mutual aid occurring and some larger scale operations I think it causes more work for everyone to have departments that continue to operate their own systems. Plus if you look at the new system you can't even complain that there won't be room for a department with large call volume. More voice channels equals more space to fit practically all Westchester Depts.

I may be dreaming but I would want to have everyone using and practicing the new system whether North or South of I-287. Maybe someday we can work on the paging frequencies too.

It was never about space. We met with DES and the engineers when they were developing the current system and they told us the system would not work in our area and it clearly would not meet our needs. So we went out and developed our own system and they were correct it works better, even with mutual aid.

[everybodygoes 331]

Thank god I don't have to pay the westchester taxes like you all do. Total waste of money. And as far as digital anything being superior, TDMA is the reason why ATT wireless lost so many customers to Verizon, because the audio quality of the signal was so poor it caused them to ditch the whole system for GSM which is still sub par but somewhat acceptable. Digital communication has no place on the fire ground, nor do trunking systems or 7/800 systems. The lack of power and ability to communicate is all the reason you need. Unless you have had your behind on the line and needed the cavalry you won't understand the importance of a basic system.