TSA officer bled for 33 minutes in LAX shooting

[x635 4,066]

Basically, this article is about an issue that's been trending even before this incident and has been mentioned in several topics on this forum recently. EMS waiting for the scene to be secured and patient outcomes.

LOS ANGELES (AP) — An airport security officer lay helplessly bleeding after a gunman opened fire at Los Angeles International Airport as paramedics waited 150 yards away because police had not declared the terminal safe to enter, according to two law enforcement officials.

http://news.yahoo.com/tsa-officer-bled-33-minutes-lax-shooting-082237704.html

[calhobs 110]

One article I read stated that they trained one month ago on this in the same terminal and that they had medics going in with police pulling out the wounded while they were still looking for the shooter. I don't understand why train one way and do it different when the real thing happens. Granted I don't understand if there was reasons why this didn't happen.

[38ff 250]

I have seen some LEO SWAT type agencies send in an armed LEO SWAT guy trained in medical, and he simpliy tosses a premade "blowout kit" to those wounded with s and the wounded applys self aid while the LEO keeps up with the team on the search for the bag guys. He does not give aid to the wounded. Sounds like a pretty fair compromise when the scene is not secured, but people are bleeding out. You can always throw the kits down a hallway before it has been secured if the tactical situation permits.

[FireMedic049 597]

One article I read stated that they trained one month ago on this in the same terminal and that they had medics going in with police pulling out the wounded while they were still looking for the shooter. I don't understand why train one way and do it different when the real thing happens. Granted I don't understand if there was reasons why this didn't happen.

Maybe they aren't finished getting everybody trained to do this?

Maybe there was some other circumstance that caused them to deviate from doing that?

Maybe they did it in training and decided afterwards against doing it that way?

[SECTMB 612]

I know I'm talking through the wrong end, but it seems to me that the guys with the guns and the vests and the shields and the armored vehicles are just taking way too long to allow aid to stricken victims. With the weaponry being used in these incidents the wounds are too serious to wait. There are countless stories of victims bleeding out who might have had a chance with immediate care.

I know that securing the scene is all about preventing additional victims, but there has to be a middle ground between responding in like Barney Fife and Bruce Willis.

[v85 212]

A lot of teams have, or are starting to have tactical medics assigned, who can stop to render aid (wearing heavy vests and sometimes armed) while the rest of the team is searching out the suspect.

[Jybehofd 85]

why can't they just do buddy aid... ? i think it was ohio or some place recently a man set his house on fire and then shot the first responding officer. But why not on the pulling out or falling back pull the wounded out with them? just keep it simple plug the hole and get them the f@#$ out

[Jybehofd 85]

i have heard the FDNY EMS tac gear is bright colored tooo?? doesn't seem like a great idea.. you don't need a medic just do a fast trauma and pull them out

[ladder230 2]

Police officers should be at least CFR. Most times the police are first on location so some ems training can't hurt,I bet if it was a LAPD officer shot thing would have been different ? Not saying the cop on location did nothing, but a TSA officer is not a cop.

[EMT111 149]

i have heard the FDNY EMS tac gear is bright colored tooo?? doesn't seem like a great idea.. you don't need a medic just do a fast trauma and pull them out

I'm sure it's bright colored to prevent the medics being identified as cops and then becoming targets themselves. Also, FDNY doesn't run tactical medics, especially since all NYPD ESU is minimum EMT, so what ever tactical gear FDNY is wearing is more for everyday protection, I.e. someone takes a shot at them as they get out of the rig at a call or a similar situation, rather than in a tactical/swat situation..

[Hudson61 11]

I can not answer for what happened at the LAX incident. My prayers go out to the TSA officer killed and his family and friends. A sad loss.

There is training available to police officers to deal with these types of injuries. TECC (Tactical Emergency Casualty Care) which is the civilian version of TCCC (Tacticle Combat Casualty Care) taught to our military troops. This training allows the police officer to deal with projectile injuries to various parts of the body, they learn how to apply tourniquets, pack wounds where appropriate, and occlussive dressings. ALS related skills as IV and chest decompression are not part of the training. They also are trained and practice applying tourniquets to themselves in the event that they are injuried. Part of the training also includes what is known as "Care Across A Barrier" in which a police officer who can not get to an injuried person but can throw needed equipement to them and instruct the injuried person in how to use it. Also keep in mind that Law Enforcement do often handle emergency calls that start off as one thing, and end up with weapons being used against them. This training will help keep those officers injuried alive until EMS arrives or the Officer is taken to a hospital.

Now this is my opinion, I believe that Law Enforccement and EMS need to communicate and work together better on these types of incidents. I know there are folks in EMS that will never go into these types of incidents and that's OK. But there are some with a military background who would go in with law enforcement. (I am one, if asked) Go in, control massive bleeding and get the patient(s) out to a CCP. (Casualty Collection Point). We both have our own specialities. I am also OK with a basic EMT going in as part of a tacticle team and keep the medics outside. Now I know some of my fellow medics will get mad at me for saying that. But here it is, sometimes we medics get too hung up on all the fancy magic we can do as medics. In a hot tactile incident there is no time to start IVs, intubate, cardiac monitoring, etc. We need to stop massive bleed first then get the injuried out of the hot zone, then the rest of the script can be followed. It is difficult at best and almost impossible to maintain situational awareness while starting an IV during a tacticle incident.

Every community has their own special needs. So what works one place may or may not work someplace else. Let's not be too critical of other communities but rather use it as an opportunity to learn and improve the vital services that we all provide.

Keep it safe out there.

[JCESU 20]

Police officers should be at least CFR. Most times the police are first on location so some ems training can't hurt,I bet if it was a LAPD officer shot thing would have been different ? Not saying the cop on location did nothing, but a TSA officer is not a cop.

I wonder if perhaps the PD deemed the scene safe and the FD refused to approach until the actor was taken into custody out of an abundance of something etc?

Many dept's won't attach outside TEMS personnel to a tactical unit for physical and legal liability reasons. I don't blame them one bit.

Tragedy that the TSA personnel was killed but I am sure the plan was for many more to die...

[16fire5 693]

Many jurisdictions are now jointly training for active shooter incidents with a new concept of having fire/ems personnel operate in the warm zone. While this may seem too risky for some it is a result of the lessons learned from incidents which indicate a savable portion of victims of these incidents die due to not receiving care. In lieu of a time consuming full clearance of the area fire/ems enters after a primary sweep under cover of LE and removes the victims. Can this strategy save lives? I think so but it will require us to work together, train together, and remember what the overall objective is (Saving Lives).

[antiquefirelt 994]

This is another in an ever growing list of failures on emergency services (all disiplines) to figure out how best to protect responders while facilitating the rescue of viable victims. We must face the facts:

1. Most places will not have a heavy LE/SWAT response in the first 10-15 minutes (likely far longer).

2. While current practices have far fewer numbers of regular duty LEO's making entry far sooner, they cannot remotely "clear" a large scene quickly

3. Waiting for an "all clear" to provide rescue, removal or life saving stabilization techiniques will result in further injuries and greater fatalities

4. We must get over the jurisdictional boundaries that say "that's your problem, not ours" or "we can't use you until the all clear due to liability"

We would be far better off working on how to better respond and work together than trying to figure out the prevention piece which is likely many years away of ever truly possible.

[v85 212]

As 16Fire5 said, a lot of places now have it in protocols to operate in the warm zone.

Right now I think that is the best option. The only ways I can see to improve on this are either:

1. Try to change police tactics to include doing something for the victims; even if it is throwing a CAT TK or a Quick-Clot ® bandage at them

2. Arm at least certain EMS personnel and qualify them to operate in the hot zone

3. Fully cross-trained PD/EMS personnel.

Two of those options have zero chance of happening, one maybe a little better chance

[BM234 2]

I serve as a Tactical Paramedic for a commercial service in the Hudson Valley that is contracted with several local, state, and federal SWAT teams. We wear body armor but are not armed. We train with these teams for officer down and civilian down situations and removals. For an active shooter situation we would go within the stack of officers on an entry team. While our primary responsibility is to the officers, we can certainly render quick aid under cover and we do carry throw packs and bags that can be left with a wounded civilian that is able to help themselves. Inter agency operability and training is key in a situation like LAX. Having our tactical medics there lets the SWAT team focus solely on the law enforcement operation of the incident, and we make recommendations as to the EMS end of things.