Firefighters Change Old Tactics

[x635 4,066]

Interesting article.

If you have a fire at your house, the way it's being fought and what you can do to save your life and your property is changing.

It all comes from a nationwide study by fire researchers that says some of the methods firefighters have used for decades don't really work.

http://www.wbay.com/story/23962005/2013/11/13/firefighters-change-tactics-say-you-should-too

[wraftery 1,275]

We'll see if any real fire depts. go for this "change." Close all the doors on the inside and hit it from the outside first. It seems to me that if you could get in to close doors, you could get in and put the fire out. This sounds like Lloyd Laymen deja vu...it works in a confined space but that's all.

Bear in mind that when you hit it from the outside, you've created steam inside. You lose much of your visibility for fire attack and search and steamed any victims that might be present.

Sometimes the tactic of an outside knock-down is a good one for perhaps a fully involved basement fire that has made the basement stairs untenable. However, if you do choose the outside knock-down, bear in mind that you may not be able to get down the stairs because it is still the chimney. You're still going to heavy steam and probably zero visibility.

Look at the picture in the article at the beginning of this thread. That's a vent hole, lad. It is only one window, so you don't know the whole situation, but your best bet is to leave it as a vent hole and go inside and bang a straight stream off the ceiling of the fire room then finish it up with a lower angled line. You kept a lot of your visibility for extinguishment and search, so just thank Mother Nature she had the wind blowing in your favor.

All these studies are under controlled conditions and you can do that at an actual incident too. Just get the fire to a manageable point, by tried and true methods, then pick up your radio and say under control.

[Guest]

I'd say watch this video from the LA county fire department and make your own conclusion.

I don't believe they require all doors be shut, just that it would be nice if people remembered to do that on the way out.

http://vimeo.com/71471869

[16fire5 693]

We'll see if any real fire depts. go for this "change." Close all the doors on the inside and hit it from the outside first. It seems to me that if you could get in to close doors, you could get in and put the fire out. This sounds like Lloyd Laymen deja vu...it works in a confined space but that's all.

Bear in mind that when you hit it from the outside, you've created steam inside. You lose much of your visibility for fire attack and search and steamed any victims that might be present.

Sometimes the tactic of an outside knock-down is a good one for perhaps a fully involved basement fire that has made the basement stairs untenable. However, if you do choose the outside knock-down, bear in mind that you may not be able to get down the stairs because it is still the chimney. You're still going to heavy steam and probably zero visibility.

Look at the picture in the article at the beginning of this thread. That's a vent hole, lad. It is only one window, so you don't know the whole situation, but your best bet is to leave it as a vent hole and go inside and bang a straight stream off the ceiling of the fire room then finish it up with a lower angled line. You kept a lot of your visibility for extinguishment and search, so just thank Mother Nature she had the wind blowing in your favor.

All these studies are under controlled conditions and you can do that at an actual incident too. Just get the fire to a manageable point, by tried and true methods, then pick up your radio and say under control.

Plenty of fire departments are going for this change. In my opinion the FDNY, Chicago, and LA County are real fire departments.

The fact is we are not steaming victims. The longer we allow the fire to burn un-interupted the less chance the victims have. When water is applied things get better always.

As for basement fires attempting to get down the stairs is a very risky tactic. Exterior knock down that is able to hit the seat of the fire actually will make descending the stairs tenable improves conditions throughout the structure.

Hundreds of fires have been conducted to test these theories both in the labs and in mutltiple aquired structures throughout the country. The revoultionary tactics outlined in FDNY Ladders 3 written in the late 60s worked very well for our department when natural fibers dominated the fuel loads. Then fuel loads of today lead to fires that are much less forgiving.

What's being advocated for the most part is the following. If you can take some of the tremendous energy out of the fire with some exterior application I would say probably never more than 90 seconds is necessary that will aid in your sucess and make it for a safer attack. No one is saying not to vent but coordination and timing is very important now. The research actually validated the benifits of VEIS, horizontal, and vertical ventilation when coordinated with suppression.

[wraftery 1,275]

16fire5... Cap, at first glance, it looks like we are at opposite ends of the spectrum, old vs, new and so on, but I think we are much closer than it looks. I also consider FDNY and LA County as real FDs. (not so sure about Chicago). These departments take a theory and try it out in a controlled situation. They will analyze it and discuss it until they are happy with it or throw it out. Often they will either send people out of town to observe its use or talk to whoever is the expert. Then they come out with a bulletin with a complete system for when to use it, when not to and how to use it. Then after it has been used at an actual incident, it is critique by those who operated the job, especially the IC. Take PPV on attack. FDNY has strict rules for its use, a specialized company to use it trained officers to make sure it is needed, set up and operating according to plan, and observers as required for safety. There is also a PPV safety BC to make sure it is having no adverse effects. I think that is what makes a good FD.

So what is a not-so-good FD? I think there are a lot more not-so- good FDs out there and it has nothing to do with size of the department. Let's stick with PPV as our example. Someone in the department, usually the Chief or Training Officer goes to a seminar or watches a video like the LAFD one in this thread. Virtually every word in the video is important. That will tell you when to depart from the norm or the tried and true But this department jumps on the PPV bandwagon without info like input size, output size, when it is counterproductive and so on. The Training Officer does a cursory training session and PPV becomes the first tool placed in front of the building and the fan cranked on. As I said, this happens more often than not. Why? Now that FD can announce "We are a progressive FD 'cause we always use PPV on attack and youse guys are living in the past."

My point is not to abandon all your tactics that served you (and maybe your father) well for so long. There is a time and place for everything. I have ordered a knockdown from the outside for several reasons but the situation and application must be right. As I said, along with the LA video, "Don't wreck your vent." The guys in the not-so-good FDs probably let that one go by the wayside and that is one of the major and basic principals of an outside knock-down. A little twist of the wrist will change your stream to fog and screw up the tactic too.

I agree with you too that the BTU output of the average fire has increased tremendously and lightweight trusses add to the tactical problem of today. I would like to add that we also need more Firefighters. Most FD numbers of FFs have dwindled over the years.

[FFPCogs 863]

This topic has had a bit of discussion on another forum. I'll sum up my view like this:

There is a time and place for every tactic, old and new alike. To discount any of them is to limit ourselves and thereby do a disservice to those we serve and ourselves. A well rounded firefighter or Fire Officer takes it all in and then based on all that knowledge and their own experience applies the right tactic at the right time in the right place.

I'll also add my general criteria for utilizing the transitional attack on a house fire: (Obviously different fires present different scenarios so there is always flexibility based on the conditions upon arrival)

1) NO known life hazard and the place is really rockin' i.e. fire out of 4 or more windows or backdraft conditions present

2) Exposures directly threatened

3) Limited manpower

Edited November 18, 2013 by FFPCogs

[Jybehofd 85]

its how we fight fires on ships... close the compartment hit it on the outside then crack the fire proof door or water tight door give a ten to 20 second shot of water close the door. hit the door with a little more water then go in.. it works really well and even better when you can hit all six sides of the fire too. As long as we know the space has no one in it. then its different, two guys will go in on a steel wire to do a search and then a team would be sent in to fight the fire. ABSOLUTE Zero visibility once they start hitting the fire though. and very few ships have cameras unless they are military or government ships.

[FFPCogs 863]

its how we fight fires on ships... close the compartment hit it on the outside then crack the fire proof door or water tight door give a ten to 20 second shot of water close the door. hit the door with a little more water then go in.. it works really well and even better when you can hit all six sides of the fire too. As long as we know the space has no one in it. then its different, two guys will go in on a steel wire to do a search and then a team would be sent in to fight the fire. ABSOLUTE Zero visibility once they start hitting the fire though. and very few ships have cameras unless they are military or government ships.

Just a quick word on this. Unlike ship fires, structural fires don't generally enjoy that level of compartmentalization. Hence the idea of confining a fire by closing interior doors and then hitting it from the outside really isn't applicable in most cases. On top of that if we're going to enter to confine the fire in this manner, why not just attack the fire while we're in there.

On another note

Here's a brief outline of "old" vs "new" tactical objectives for anyone interested, for my part I'll stick with the old:

Edited November 18, 2013 by FFPCogs

[everybodygoes 331]

Its too broad of a tactic. And unfortunately we are always dealing with people of different intelligence levels at all levels of leadership, paid or not. Controlling flow path and being aware of it is great and is extremely practical, but not for every circumstance. Yes new materials contain an extraordinary amount of energy from the hydrocarbon chains with in them, and yes no hole besides removing the roof will rid the amount of heat they generate, but, in a top floor fire in an apt building, how much do you really think you will have? All it takes is to be on the inside just once when they roof is pulled and you can see the difference almost immediately. And the powers that be are no attempting to introduce the new tactics of hitting it from the outside first then proceeding in to depts all over.

The research is great, but what needs to be done is training, supervisors need to be trained to identify everything from wind gusts to building layouts and the affects an open door will have. Just simply stating control the flow path is pointless on a 2 family flat roof private dwelling, as always the main concern should be life.

[wraftery 1,275]

1. Ships are different. You can't compare Apples and Oranges.

2. You are dealing with people who have different intelligence levels. Good point...and experience levels

3. Hit it from the outside for 90 sec tops? Is that a typo? It seems like a real long time.

4. Be inside when the roof is pulled and see what happens. That observation should be added to your Experience Package which lies directly under your helmet. Also tell your crew so they gain knowledge. When it happens at a job you might want to tell that the vent's good.

5. We have been talking about closing the doors, especially the VES man. Be aware that all interior doors are not created equal.

Graded from best to worst:

Hallway doors in multiple dwellings are fire rated. Even the older walkups have some kind of a rated door BEST

Older private dwellings have substantial solid doors Some Protection

Most middle aged dwellings have hollow core wood doors they Fail rapidly

New dwellings have plastic hollow core doors. VES man has to move quickly

A man doing VES can estimate the integrity of interior doors by sizing up the building type and age.

'

Just some comments on the comments

[FFPCogs 863]

1. Ships are different. You can't compare Apples and Oranges.

2. You are dealing with people who have different intelligence levels. Good point...and experience levels

3. Hit it from the outside for 90 sec tops? Is that a typo? It seems like a real long time.

4. Be inside when the roof is pulled and see what happens. That observation should be added to your Experience Package which lies directly under your helmet. Also tell your crew so they gain knowledge. When it happens at a job you might want to tell that the vent's good.

5. We have been talking about closing the doors, especially the VES man. Be aware that all interior doors are not created equal.

Graded from best to worst:

Hallway doors in multiple dwellings are fire rated. Even the older walkups have some kind of a rated door BEST

Older private dwellings have substantial solid doors Some Protection

Most middle aged dwellings have hollow core wood doors they Fail rapidly

New dwellings have plastic hollow core doors. VES man has to move quickly

A man doing VES can estimate the integrity of interior doors by sizing up the building type and age.

'

Just some comments on the comments

And good ones at that they are.

[Jybehofd 85]

yes but just like ships... homes are become more and more air tight.

[Jybehofd 85]

i just find it interesting that some of the new tactics are the same that are used on ship... a closed box is a closed box. with alot of stuff that burns on the inside. no fire is ever the same nor would i ever suggest using a cookie cutter to attack every fire the same way. you need to adopt and over come and adjust things accordingly to get a rapid extunigshment to save lives, equipment, and the structure.

[FFPCogs 863]

I found this on the other site I frequent about this topic. In that forum the discussion has in part delved into "unsafe" (old) practices vs "safe" (new) practices and this article was linked as a part of that discussion:

http://community.fireengineering.com/profiles/blog/show?xg_source=activity&id=1219672%3ABlogPost%3A588931&cmpid=EnlFireEngWeeklyNovember132013

While I'm sure will take a look at it I'll leave you with this excerpt that I think sums it all up.

"If your mindset from the moment you hang your coat on the rig is to avoid risk, you are in the wrong profession. Risk avoidance places someone else at a greater risk. By being a smart firefighter, by reading, learning, training over and over again, you will learn to manage risk. Your training needs to be about not just getting it right, but training until you can’t get it wrong. Your training needs to be realistic, repetitive and relevant. It must be based on your SOPs, your environment, your resources and equipment. If you train like this, then you will know that the preconceived notions of todays Fire Service are no way to manage a fireground. Taking the path of least resistance, because you think it is safer and because of a blanket statement, not based on fact is unacceptable. It isn’t what you signed up for, it isn’t what your citizens expect and it creates a dangerous mindset that will eventually lead you to be ineffective as a firefighter/fire officer, and possible more dangerous than those ‘cowboys’ you call out.

[Bnechis 3,961]

yes but just like ships... homes are become more and more air tight.

But how many ships are built with pressboard, sheetrock, 2"x 3" trusses, flimsy wood I joists, etc. and the void spaces...in every wall, floor, ceiling....

[kinkchaser 352]

I would like to thank all those contributing to this topic with well thought out points, this is a subject,we all will have to learn more on. Just wondering in the future, if a Department adopts these concepts and their neighbors haven't yet been converted, how will .a mutual aid fire play out ?

[FFPCogs 863]

Charles Darwin has it right for the evolution of the fire service too:

[wraftery 1,275]

You can't open a ship's "closed box" to let the fire out. Thai's probably the main difference. Are you using fog in shipboard firefighting?

[16fire5 693]

16fire5... Cap, at first glance, it looks like we are at opposite ends of the spectrum, old vs, new and so on, but I think we are much closer than it looks.

I don't think we are on opposite sides of the spectrum. I've been afforded the opportunity to see the research first hand. Unfortunatly many people are not hearing the true message. No one is advocating full scale changes to our tactics. No one is advocating fog or shipboard firefighting tactics at all in fact venting is advocated and the benifits are supported by the research. I think there's a lot of fear that we are advocating never venting and doing exterior attack as SOP which is not the case.

[FFPCogs 863]

I don't think we are on opposite sides of the spectrum. I've been afforded the opportunity to see the research first hand. Unfortunatly many people are not hearing the true message. No one is advocating full scale changes to our tactics. No one is advocating fog or shipboard firefighting tactics at all in fact venting is advocated and the benifits are supported by the research. I think there's a lot of fear that we are advocating never venting and doing exterior attack as SOP which is not the case.

While this may be so, unfortunately there are many firefighters and departments out there that grab on to the "latest and greatest" in an effort to be "progressive" and "safe" without fully comprehending the entire scope of what that entails. They tend to apply these "magic bullets" across the board as the end all be all of their tactical doctrines and in doing so disregard proven tactics in their zeal to modernize. This is but yet another aspect of a growing trend in today's fire service to put US above THEM, (the them being those we serve) in the name of safety. I'm sure some of you know what 'm talking about, You know, the we come first attitude. Well I for one don't subscribe to that nonsense. I know, I know we've all heard the arguments about today's fire loads and how getting ourselves in trouble by being too aggressive amplifies the problem and that's all true enough. But long before we get into that situation we should be training ourselves on how to operate in the conditions we're going to face, not looking for some way to get around them. I've said it before and I'll say it again, the most effective way to be safe on the fireground is to know your job, and that means knowing all the tools, tactics and techniques that go in to doing it right.

[wraftery 1,275]

Glad we are in agreement, 16fire5. Now let me ask about the 90 sec max you mentioned. That seems to me to be an awful long time to be working that outside line. I would picture maybe 30 sec at the most, watching the smoke's color and making sure you still have a vent. Could you comment on that?

I think you are in agreement with me on this, too. Before anyone uses new tactic (any new tactic)on the fireground several things have to be in place.

You have to be familiar with the tactic. That's the whole tactic, not the excerpts you chose to pick out. You have to know why you are deviating from the norm and what your tactic should be accomplishing, and what the fire looks like when things are going right or things are going wrong. For example, Opposing Streams is still a no-no. It is still a legitimate reason for the 2nd floor officer to swing a Halligan at your head because you pushed fire at him.

There must also be fireground discipline and communications on every job you get. If you don't have that, you're better off staying in the firehouse.

And a PS for the guys who want to throw the old out. VES is fairly new, so I guess you are allowed to use it, but remember it was an old guy who gave you that tidbit on door integrity. Stay safe

[FFPCogs 863]

There's safety and then there's dereliction of duty ...you decide

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g7-nV...&feature=share

[pjgold14 3]

FYI... Topics like "knocking it down" a bit from the outside in SOME circumstances are NOT new to the fire service. They've been in practical operation for more than 10 years in some cases...

Go to the UL website and look at the study done recently by FDNY at Governors Island... Look at the numbers! A difference of 600 degrees in a hallway with NO LOSS OF VISIBILITY is enough to make you think about a little change! Remember, it's all in the tactic being properly used! Maybe some of this stuff will someday be "tradition" for our kids!!!

[wraftery 1,275]

I don't know if I could kill that much time even if I double dosed valium. I mostly liked the milk crate...look in the L/R compartment oops, no milk crate; go to L/F here it is! Bring crate to a certain place in the street that he only knows why. I think it's used like a buoy to direct the attack (yes attack) line on the proper course to stretch. Slowly pull LDH , don't break it and don't pass it to the MPO. And on and on. IC should be saying WTF!!!! WTF!!!! No, he joins the slow attack.

Did he return the second Due Engine? I Know he cancelled the Tuck enroute.

WOW

[FFPCogs 863]

IC should be saying WTF!!!! WTF!!!!

WOW

That's exactly what I said repeatedly while watching this video.

[pjgold14 3]

Don't think we're talking about the same material..

[FirNaTine 370]

But how many ships are built with pressboard, sheetrock, 2"x 3" trusses, flimsy wood I joists, etc. and the void spaces...in every wall, floor, ceiling....

Only the Italian ones!

[FirNaTine 370]

I would like to thank all those contributing to this topic with well thought out points, this is a subject,we all will have to learn more on. Just wondering in the future, if a Department adopts these concepts and their neighbors haven't yet been converted, how will .a mutual aid fire play out ?

Like a" three ring circus" as usual!

[FirNaTine 370]

I've said it before and I'll say it again, the most effective way to be safe on the fireground is to know your job, and that means knowing all the tools, tactics and techniques that go in to doing it right.

Absolutely Cogs and add to that hiring competent individuals who can understand, grasp and remember most of what they're taught so it is done right!

[Bnechis 3,961]

1461274_10200184531814949_1445586811_n.jpg

Charles Darwin has it right for the evolution of the fire service too:

Many clearly will not survive, the key is how will they transition?