CO Calls, What's the Rush?

[TFD141@aol.com 26]

Isn't 1,000,000 parts 100%? So 12,500 PPM would be 1.25% not 12.8% ? I believe CO is lower flammable limit is 128,000PPM or 12.8%.and upper limit is 74% or 744,000PPM. I attached a propane safety document link below which is good reading and provides a lot of information. CO without symptoms should still be treated with high regard as the occupant could be under the influence of CO poisioning and not giving correct answers to dispatchers, so the first unit should "rush" to ensure the correct situation is ascertained. As little as 1200PPM is IDLH, thats only 1.2% (not 12%). A typical cooking range that is normally unvented can give off 1000PPM cooking a large dinner such as Thanksgiving or other times. Possible CO poisoning and not getting the correct story... Thats the rush. Seems we are beating ourselves up all the time trying to not be EMERGENCY SERVICES...asking what's the rush. Its a highly dangerous gas and thats why the manufacturers put that "CALL YOUR FIRE DEPARTMENT" notice on all detectors. They expect you to rush to make sure it isn't dangerous, and to save soemone if it is. Again, thats the rush.

http://www.propanesafety.com/uploadedFiles/Safety/Workforce_Training_programs/Propane_Emergencies_(PE)_Program/Energencies_PDFs/Scenario%202.pdf

[Bnechis 3,961]

Sorry but I totally disagree with your viewpoint. The law does protect us. I can't go into the story online, however, I personally have seen the law protect after a serious collision between a car and apparatus. Had the call been made to proceed with caution, emergency services would have been "partially" at fault. The judge ruled partial fault until the emergency services lawyer advised the judge of the V&T law and it was ruled no fault of the apparatus. Again, I say always proceed with caution. In your #3 were you not proceeding with caution prior to the call of 10-20???

So disagree. I know from multiple cases involving ambulances it worked out the other way. I also know from the #1 winning fire service attorney that the normal liability runs the other way.

Yes we are always proceeding that way, my point was that when others misuse the term we can end up on the short end.

[Bnechis 3,961]

1) Isn't 1,000,000 parts 100%? So 12,500 PPM would be 1.25% not 12.8% ? I believe CO is lower flammable limit is 128,000PPM or 12.8%.and upper limit is 74% or 744,000PPM.

2) CO without symptoms should still be treated with high regard as the occupant could be under the influence of CO poisioning and not giving correct answers to dispatchers, so the first unit should "rush" to ensure the correct situation is ascertained.

3) A typical cooking range that is normally unvented can give off 1000PPM cooking a large dinner such as Thanksgiving or other times.

4) Seems we are beating ourselves up all the time trying to not be EMERGENCY SERVICES...asking what's the rush. Its a highly dangerous gas and thats why the manufacturers put that "CALL YOUR FIRE DEPARTMENT" notice on all detectors. They expect you to rush to make sure it isn't dangerous, and to save soemone if it is. Again, thats the rush.

1) Yes that is correct, I realize I left off a zero then copied and pasted that mistake. I did list the 12.8 vs 12.5 as a variation I found in different texts. Thanks

2) That takes extreme levels and the likelihood of you killing someone responding is much higher than an incorrect evaluation by dispatch. Now since dispatch almost always advises the person(s) to get out, your quick response changes little in this case. This is not the same as the person is not responding during a CO call.

3) Since most cooking ranges are unvented, if this were true we would flood our ER's regularly and people would be dying left and right. US EPA says 5-15ppm is the normal for a range. THis is not to say their can not be a malfunction that makes it go higher, your numbers are rather inflated.

4) no we are just tired of injuring and killing firefighters for no reason. Too many FD's think that because someone called 911 it is an emergency. It says call the FD so they are relived of liability. Our stats show over 85% of the CO calls without symptoms are for dead batteries and if the person would read the detector they would \know it and not have called.

[everybodygoes 331]

The temperature does not need to be that at the floor, just at any point that the CO is within 12.5% and 74% and it will cause a flashover or backdraft. Could even be in another room, which explains how fire travels beyond the room of origin.

Maybe a partial explanation but not the norm by any means. Flashover is rare.

[Bnechis 3,961]

Maybe a partial explanation but not the norm by any means. Flashover is rare.

Is it rare or is it rare that we see it?

[everybodygoes 331]

Well being that we are the only people that would see it, it is rare. You sure your first name isn't Richard and Barry is a nickname?

[Bnechis 3,961]

Well being that we are the only people that would see it, it is rare. You sure your first name isn't Richard and Barry is a nickname?

?

Im sure

[medic84r4ny 2]

My personel opinion is that people should be educated to call thier utility company or the company that services the appliance. Trained dispatchers should be able to triage calls from residents, reporting a Co detector activation. If there is no one with symtoms. They should simply be instructed to leave the residence, trun of the device if posible, (furnaces usually have a convient to reach emergency switch.) posibly open some windows, leave the door open, and then call a service person. If the person has a service contract then there will most likly be a charge for the call.

FD reponse is a waiste of resources and tax payer money. After wall what is the FD going do? All of the above only they might use some fancy fans to ventilate the residence faster. What is the total cost to tax payers? Perhaps several thousand dollars? What is the risk to the public in departments that insist on responding lights and sirens with multiple pieces of equipment. Not to mention in some areas covered by commercial EMS they may attempt to bill the home owner for the response, (Since it may be covered by there home owner insurence).

The reasons most FDs don t want to do any thing about these responses is; 1. The usual what if and liabilty excuse. 2 The disire to keep run numbers inflated, (justifies more staffing and more equipment) 3. Then there is the mentality that every second matters at any cost, as long as we get our adrenaline rush.

just o clarify if there are reported symptoms or the call is coming in from an Alarm company with no voce contact then that would require some level of response, according to a departments SOPs.

[Bnechis 3,961]

1) My personel opinion is that people should be educated to call thier utility company or the company that services the appliance.

2) Trained dispatchers should be able to triage calls from residents, reporting a Co detector activation. If there is no one with symtoms. They should simply be instructed to leave the residence, trun of the device if posible, (furnaces usually have a convient to reach emergency switch.) posibly open some windows, leave the door open, and then call a service person.

3) FD reponse is a waiste of resources and tax payer money.

4) After wall what is the FD going do? All of the above only they might use some fancy fans to ventilate the residence faster. What is the total cost to tax payers? Perhaps several thousand dollars?

5) What is the risk to the public in departments that insist on responding lights and sirens with multiple pieces of equipment.

6) Not to mention in some areas covered by commercial EMS they may attempt to bill the home owner for the response, (Since it may be covered by there home owner insurence).

1) that's great, Who do they call when its not coming from an appliance, or the utility does not provide the fuel for that appliance? Who is responsible when its coming from improperly drafting of the oil heater and the gas water heater.....the oil company or the gas company? And who do they call when the owner of the apt building does not answer the phone and their is no Supt. (the apt tenants generally have no access to the basement or even know what appliances are there.

2) Our dispatchers are taught to triage, but more important to tell people to get out of a potentially toxic environment, not to go around turning off things and opening windows, this would be no different than telling them to put out there own fire instead of getting out. We also always advise against opening anything or turning off anything (unless someone can not be moved to fresh air). Once you disturb the air flows and appliance settings its is very very difficult to find and then fix the source. 15 years ago dispatch would tell people this and we would end up getting 2, 3 or 4 call backs when the detector went off again. Particularly problematic during a major pressure inversion which forces flue gas back into the home.

3) Our taxpayers do not think so. They pay for SERVICE and they are glad when we show up in 4 minutes and the gas company does not.

4) See #2. We do not use fans until we isolate the problem. Cost several $1,000...A little inflated...Lets see, the fire truck is paid for and sitting there, the crew is paid, either way...ok so we used 2 gallons of fuel (and we buy it on state contract with no tax).

5) the same risk when they do it to any other type of call that they should not. The problem there is the dept policy not the CO call.

6) 1st home owners insurance generally would only cover it if it were a liability issue. I.e. I got CO in YOUR house, your fault, you or your insurance pay. Generally If EMS responds and does not treat or transport it is illegal to bill.