CO Calls, What's the Rush?

[BM234 2]

Figured this was the right time of year to bring up this topic. In my volunteer department, any CO detector activation with no reported illness gets a chief or line officer with a meter, non emergency response. Any reported symptoms gets a full department response, often non emergency.

I hear countless departments going full department code 3 response to CO detector activations with no reported illness. I don't view this as an emergency call, just wondering how they justify their actions should an accident occur with an apparatus or a member in a POV.

[v85 212]

Do you need a code 3 response for CO no symptoms probably not, but I would think you would need more than one person right. Isn't a suspected CO leak considered IDLH, meaning you need 2-in 2-out with SCBAs? At least our fire department treats it as such.

In the Maryland agency I was dispatching for, a CO NOSYMPTOMS call type got 1 engine. a CO SYMPTOMS call got 1 engine and 1 ambulance

[Remember585 815]

Non-Emergency, Rescue & Engine. This gives you two meters and adequate manpower to fulfill the Two In, Two Out. We used to send Rescue only until we had more than one incident where a CO Detector was actually a smoke detector.

CO w/ Symptoms get's Two Engines, Truck, Rescue & EMS. This provides units to locate a source, vent the premises and assist EMS with removing / assisting patients.

[STAT213 332]

Just something to think about... Do you know the flammable range of of CO?

In addition to being a lethal gas for reasons of oxygen deprivation, it is a volatile substance.

Symptoms or not, CO calls shouldn't be toyed with. They deserve a minimum of an engine.

[bgore3 8]

When we get toned out and there are "no reported symptoms," it is for that reason.. no reported symptoms. When the alarm company calls and nobody answers that is the report we get. There is always the potential that the occupier is unconscious and cannot reach the phone. You just never know, and that chance is why we respond with urgency unless informed otherwise.

[antiquefirelt 994]

While my dept strives to balance risks by responding non-emergency whenever we can, there are numerous reasons that every type of call must be evaluated for it's potential. Like another thread here, discussing move-ups and station coverage, there can be mitigating circumstances that drive policy.

One thing on this issue that's not been brought up yet: treating an activated alarm as if it was not an emergency says what about the alarm system? I'm not advocating responding emergency to all activated alarms, but if the reasons you're not is due to the high number of activation without cause or malfunctions, this should be addresses on a larger scale. We need for consumer alarm products to be reliable and for the consumer to be confident that an alarm means a potential emergency. In our case, I've yet to respond to a CO alarm that was part of an alarm system, while they exist, they are either rare or don't have the same issues the stand alones do. So when a CO detector arms, the occupant calls 911 and typically gives a fair assessment of whether or not the building is occupied. In our case if it's a single family and they report all out, no symptoms, we respond with an engine and ambulance non-emergency. If there is any question as to occupants we respond "emergency" status. We find that most of our SO alarms are actual elevated CO calls, rarely are they high concentration, but most of the time they indicate a properly working CO unit, thus we respond as if the unit is activated to the presence of CO.

I'd also note that 10-15 years ago we went to a far greater number of activated smoke detectors/alarms that often were not armed due to smoke, yet we never modified our responses unless it was multiple time to the same address in the same shift. Today, it is rare for us to get an AFA that isn't properly functioning. Now the cause may not be an emergency, but the device is working as designed more often than ever.

Edited November 13, 2013 by antiquefirelt

[Bnechis 3,961]

but I would think you would need more than one person right. Isn't a suspected CO leak considered IDLH, meaning you need 2-in 2-out with SCBAs?

A "Suspected CO Leak" is not an IDLH an actual leak with concentrations of 1,500ppm (in the past and was updated to 1,200 ppm. It is rare that CO calls get levels that are that high, but they do get levels that can cause serious issues particularly to people with compromised health, young children and developing fetuses.

Utility companies regularly check CO levels without 2in or 2out or with SCBA available. While it is a good policy to do these things, a person who is well trained with a properly calibrated detector can do an investigation safely alone since they will get a warning long before there is an issue.

[everybodygoes 331]

If your CO call is for an IDLH range, it wouldn't be coming from inside. These are the biggest nuisance calls. It clearly is written on the detectors (most) that three beeps means you need a battery. My favorite is how long has it been going off? 2 days. Why did you call us at 330am? Cause I couldn't sleep.

[Bnechis 3,961]

Just something to think about... Do you know the flammable range of of CO?

In addition to being a lethal gas for reasons of oxygen deprivation, it is a volatile substance.

Symptoms or not, CO calls shouldn't be toyed with. They deserve a minimum of an engine.

The flammable range (also known as the explosive range) is 12.5% - 74% or 12,500ppm - 74,000ppm Note: some reference book have slightly different LEL #'s.

That means that to get to the lower limit you are already 9x over the IDLH. SO chances are if a victim is in this level they will be dead long before it is flammable (generally 1 or 2 breaths).

Now the fire service has been using other terms for the lower & upper range and what occurs when CO hits those levels.

I would be curious to know (without saying what the answer is) who knows the fire service terms for what happens or can happen when you reach these levels. I will give them after we see how many say they know the answer.

[Bnechis 3,961]

When we get toned out and there are "no reported symptoms," it is for that reason.. no reported symptoms. When the alarm company calls and nobody answers that is the report we get. There is always the potential that the occupier is unconscious and cannot reach the phone. You just never know, and that chance is why we respond with urgency unless informed otherwise.

When 60 Control dispatches us to a central station alarm CO activation, they tell us just that. They do not tell us "no reported symptoms" unless they spoke with the reporting person and question if anyone is experiencing symptoms and the reported tells them that their are no symptoms.

[Bnechis 3,961]

We find that most of our SO alarms are actual elevated CO calls, rarely are they high concentration, but most of the time they indicate a properly working CO unit, thus we respond as if the unit is activated to the presence of CO.

We find that the vast majority of ours (particularly those with "no symptoms") are for batteries or other malfunctions, but the caller did not read that's what it said on the detector.

[antiquefirelt 994]

We find that the vast majority of ours (particularly those with "no symptoms") are for batteries or other malfunctions, but the caller did not read that's what it said on the detector.

Good point, I suppose we have a fair number of these as well, but they're typically known from the time of dispatch as they report the intermittent chirp vs. a fully alarmed device, thus they are single engine non-emergency runs for us. One of the things we try and in part on the dispatcher is to question what the alarm sounds like if they can't hear it in the background. Usually the caller who sees no smoke (or CO as they rarely know any better) doesn't suspect a real problem is occurring but they can't figure it out, so send the FD.

[BM234 2]

Just a side note, our department goes by the OSHA regulation of 50ppm for 8 hours, and we use that a discretionary tool as to what action is taken.

[Bnechis 3,961]

Just a side note, our department goes by the OSHA regulation of 50ppm for 8 hours, and we use that a discretionary tool as to what action is taken.

The NIOSH recommended level is no more than 35ppm for 8 hours.

But of more importance both the OSHA & NIOSH standards are for a health adult. Lower levels can cause serious cardiac, respiratory and other medical issues in people who have sever health issues. it can also cause brain damage at levels lower than 50ppm in infants and in a fetus (without any side effects on the mother).

[AFS1970 504]

Utility companies regularly check CO levels without 2in or 2out or with SCBA available. While it is a good policy to do these things, a person who is well trained with a properly calibrated detector can do an investigation safely alone since they will get a warning long before there is an issue.

Garbage men still ride the back step, and one was recently killed doing so. While allot of the safety requirements we deal with may seem bothersome, we are told time and time again that what others do is no reason for us to do the same.

I have heard of allot of agencies that go in with two meters just in case one malfunctions, this requires at least 2 people. I once kept a mutual aid unit coming in because I wanted a second meter ready and was blasted by the Chief for doing so. Funny thing is the mutual aid company (which was very close to the call) blasted me for taking the meter and a crew in a pick up truck to the call. I just didn't need anything bigger.

I once questioned full turnout gear and SCBA on these calls to a senior officer, and his response was CO is the product of incomplete combustion, thus there is a risk of fire, however small, when investigating these calls. I really had no argument against him on that one.

[TFD141@aol.com 26]

I have seen several no symptoms calls turn out to have very high levels of CO. One recently was >8000 PPM, and another was 120,000PPM. The resident was away, loaned his home to two foreign visitors who called as they entered the home and the alarm was sounding. Furnace was pushing out CO through the flue pipe air intake at the heater, mainly due to high humidity levels outside. The second one that was 120,000ppm was the spouses pickup truck is left running in the garage to warm up, he leaves through the inside garage door and pulls out closing the garage for security reasons. Wife and children were left behind sleeping and the alarm awoke them. Both parties indicated it was not an emergency to them and were embarassed.

More importantly Brothers & Sisters:

We also go with having the first unit do a size up then report the conditions and if the report indicates no emergency, the officer and driver know in advance to keep lights and siren to comply with V&T law while not "rushing" and driving with "more caution", etc. I recommend to protect us drivers and officers to never say "go non-emergency" or "with Traffic" as you are no longer protected by V&T law if you cross a yellow or white road line, roll through a stop or yield sign or traffic signal, turn to sharp and cross into the other oncoming lane, go 5-10 miles-per-hour over the posted speed limit, pulling out of the driveway from HQ, etc.. Your driver and officer may be in jail for a very long time because we are being so thoughtful about "safety" that we called for a non emergency response and your driver/officer went over the line to get around a double parked car or delivery van, struck the oncoming car and injured or worse killed the driver even though you were driving with caution. You should always drive with caution whether its an emergency or not, even if they say "expedite", "people trapped", "working fire", "10-75" or whatever. If you call over the radio to proceed with caution, the other drivers lawyer will play that back and will ask the jury, " so the f\ire truck wasn't proceeding with caution prior to that call and caused harm to my client???"...the next sound you hear will be the jail cell door closing behind you. Or he will ask the jury, do you think the "emergency driver" was proceeding in non emergency after his adrenaline was pumping coming to an emergency request call and than halfway into the response, your told to go non emergency?? The jury will think...he must have been "adrenaline high" and caused the accident...we the judge or jury find you 50% fault..that's $10 million pain and suffering...and 2 years in jail for failure to slow down adequately 10 seconds after the radio transmission transcript indicates you ignoring the non emergency or proceed with caution order. Why do we want to remove the protection of the law that was written to protect us while "doing our job".

[ffmike9 0]

No illness gets 1 engine or truck company non- emergency response.

Reported illness gets engine/truck company, rescue & ambulance emergency response.

[Bnechis 3,961]

I have heard of allot of agencies that go in with two meters just in case one malfunctions, this requires at least 2 people. I once kept a mutual aid unit coming in because I wanted a second meter ready and was blasted by the Chief for doing so. Funny thing is the mutual aid company (which was very close to the call) blasted me for taking the meter and a crew in a pick up truck to the call. I just didn't need anything bigger.

I once questioned full turnout gear and SCBA on these calls to a senior officer, and his response was CO is the product of incomplete combustion, thus there is a risk of fire, however small, when investigating these calls. I really had no argument against him on that one.

I have heard of a lot of agencies that do not calibrate their meters or bump test them when they turn them on, if that's the case then the two meters are just as useless as one

He is correct, but then we ask the electrical utility to send someone in who does not meet this.

[Bnechis 3,961]

1) We also go with having the first unit do a size up then report the conditions and if the report indicates no emergency, the officer and driver know in advance to keep lights and siren to comply with V&T law while not "rushing" and driving with "more caution", etc. I recommend to protect us drivers and officers to never say "go non-emergency" or "with Traffic" as you are no longer protected by V&T law if you cross a yellow or white road line, roll through a stop or yield sign or traffic signal, turn to sharp and cross into the other oncoming lane, go 5-10 miles-per-hour over the posted speed limit, pulling out of the driveway from HQ, etc.. Your driver and officer may be in jail for a very long time because we are being so thoughtful about "safety" that we called for a non emergency response and your driver/officer went over the line to get around a double parked car or delivery van, struck the oncoming car and injured or worse killed the driver even though you were driving with caution.

2) You should always drive with caution whether its an emergency or not, even if they say "expedite", "people trapped", "working fire", "10-75" or whatever.

3) If you call over the radio to proceed with caution, the other drivers lawyer will play that back and will ask the jury, " so the f\ire truck wasn't proceeding with caution prior to that call and caused harm to my client???"...the next sound you hear will be the jail cell door closing behind you.

Why do we want to remove the protection of the law that was written to protect us while "doing our job".

1) While the law allows you to do those things, it does not protect you while you are doing them. If you get into any accident with RL&S going and you have not "proceeded with due regard" and the accident is automatically your fault.

2) Agreed

3) We call 10-20 and we define it as "proceed in non-emergency mode". but in plain speak 60 control often responds with: "10-4 you are proceeding with caution"

Those protections are a two way street. And emergency mode does not "protect you"

[everybodygoes 331]

What meter do you use that can register 120,000ppm? I am really curious!

[Bnechis 3,961]

Now the fire service has been using other terms for the lower & upper range and what occurs when CO hits those levels.

I would be curious to know (without saying what the answer is) who knows the fire service terms for what happens or can happen when you reach these levels. I will give them after we see how many say they know the answer.

Nobody has answered this and all firefighters should know the answer.

If you add heat and raise or lower the CO level to 12.5% or 12,500 ppm what happens?

If you add heat and raise or lower the CO level to 74% or 74,000ppm what happens?

[Remember585 815]

Nothing.

Nothing.

[Bnechis 3,961]

Nothing.

Nothing.

Very Wrong

Very Wrong

[antiquefirelt 994]

Nobody has answered this and all firefighters should know the answer.

If you add heat and raise or lower the CO level to 12.5% or 12,500 ppm what happens?

If you add heat and raise or lower the CO level to 74% or 74,000ppm what happens?

Were you looking for the "too lean, too rich and the sweet spot" ? That was what immediately came to mind, but I figured you were looking for something more fireamatic.

The one thing about any gases once they leave their "container" if they're too rich to burn, there will be a place where they are ripe for ignition, on the other end, they can be too lean if the container or production is closed the concentration is dissipating.

Edited November 15, 2013 by antiquefirelt

[Bnechis 3,961]

Were you looking for the "too lean, too rich and the sweet spot" ? That was what immediately came to mind, but I figured you were looking for something more fireamatic.

The one thing about any gases once they leave their "container" if they're too rich to burn, there will be a place where they are ripe for ignition, on the other end, they can be too lean if the container or production is closed the concentration is dissipating.

Yes I am looking for what occurs when you get to that sweet spot (at either end) and you add heat. Its a basic concept that's part of basic fire science.

[ladder230 2]

Good post,if no one is sick just respond, gear up and check it out. If you were a driver and ran that red light and kill some one and later found out the location you were going to had a old detector how would you fell and what would the press say about you and your department?

[Bnechis 3,961]

Nobody has answered this and all firefighters should know the answer.

If you add heat and raise or lower the CO level to 12.5% or 12,500 ppm what happens?

If you add heat and raise or lower the CO level to 74% or 74,000ppm what happens?

I am hoping that nobody answered because they did not understand what I was asking.

If the level of CO rises above 12.5% or 12,500 ppm (the LEL) and the temperature is above 1,128 degrees F. you get a Flashover

Note: rollover occurs when you have small pockets that are already at the LEL, but the general area has not gotten there.

If the level of CO drops down to (or rises to, but the heats not there till its close) to 74% or 74,000 ppm (the UEL) and the temperature is above 1,128 degrees F. you get a Backdraft

[everybodygoes 331]

If the temperature at the floor is 1128 degrees you are dead and no way would you even attempt to enter it. Not when your face piece melts to your face at what 500 degrees?

[Bnechis 3,961]

If the temperature at the floor is 1128 degrees you are dead and no way would you even attempt to enter it. Not when your face piece melts to your face at what 500 degrees?

The temperature does not need to be that at the floor, just at any point that the CO is within 12.5% and 74% and it will cause a flashover or backdraft. Could even be in another room, which explains how fire travels beyond the room of origin.

[TFD141@aol.com 26]

1) While the law allows you to do those things, it does not protect you while you are doing them. If you get into any accident with RL&S going and you have not "proceeded with due regard" and the accident is automatically your fault.

2) Agreed

3) We call 10-20 and we define it as "proceed in non-emergency mode". but in plain speak 60 control often responds with: "10-4 you are proceeding with caution"

Those protections are a two way street. And emergency mode does not "protect you"

Sorry but I totally disagree with your viewpoint. The law does protect us. I can't go into the story online, however, I personally have seen the law protect after a serious collision between a car and apparatus. Had the call been made to proceed with caution, emergency services would have been "partially" at fault. The judge ruled partial fault until the emergency services lawyer advised the judge of the V&T law and it was ruled no fault of the apparatus. Again, I say always proceed with caution. In your #3 were you not proceeding with caution prior to the call of 10-20???