Fast Teams- RIT

[hudson144 150]

Does your dept actively use a fast team from within your own dept or does it rely on a mutual aid team, IMO 2 guys standing in front of the fire scene with no formal training is nothing but a smokescreen to cover their butt. How does your dept cover the mandate. I know for career depts manpower is often the issue!

[v85 212]

Orange County only uses mutual aid teams, from at least 2 districts away. I believe the justification is that a fast team from the same department or the neighboring department would be "too emotionally attached" to the firefighters and take unneccessary risks.

[SageVigiles 1,194]

Some light reading, before we careen down this side road one more time.

http://www.emtbravo.net/index.php/topic/48915-fas-team-thought/?hl=+rapid%20+intervention

http://www.emtbravo.net/index.php/topic/48756-fast-requirements/?hl=%2Brapid+%2Bintervention#entry278697

http://www.emtbravo.net/index.php/topic/38681-fast-response-times/?hl=+rapid%20+intervention

http://www.emtbravo.net/index.php/topic/29869-what-equipment-does-your-fasteam-carry/?hl=+rapid%20+intervention

http://www.emtbravo.net/index.php/topic/35611-fasteam-member-pre-requisites/?hl=+rapid%20+intervention

http://www.emtbravo.net/index.php/topic/18887-thoughts-on-fast/?hl=+rapid%20+intervention

http://www.emtbravo.net/index.php/topic/49173-the-fast-fad-what-happened/?hl=fast

[dashield 61]

Orange County only uses mutual aid teams, from at least 2 districts away. I believe the justification is that a fast team from the same department or the neighboring department would be "too emotionally attached" to the firefighters and take unneccessary risks.

You are absolutely incorrect, no such policy exists. For some reason FAST is treated as some speciality team rather than having every interior member trained to get the guy your crawling down the hallway with out. Due to this belief only some departments in Orange County have FAST, which often result in the FAST coming from further away.

[v85 212]

Maybe that was the case long ago? I definitely remember hearing that from somebody on the fire department.

As far as FAST being treated as a special team and therefore only some agencies having it, I definitely understand that.

The district I'm in (Warwick) has a FAST team. For any of our structure fires our next three closest FAST teams are:

Goshen, Monroe, and Slate Hill. With the last two being 20 minutes away. (Chester FD has a FAST team and are closer than Goshen in some spots, but as of my last time speaking with Chester FD members, it is still out of service).

What also frequently happens is our FAST team gets called as FAST, but put to work as a truck company upon arrival

[ex-commish 490]

Does your dept actively use a fast team from within your own dept or does it rely on a mutual aid team, IMO 2 guys standing in front of the fire scene with no formal training is nothing but a smokescreen to cover their butt. How does your dept cover the mandate. I know for career depts manpower is often the issue!

Good argument for FAST being part of FF1

[Bnechis 3,961]

Does your dept actively use a fast team from within your own dept or does it rely on a mutual aid team, IMO 2 guys standing in front of the fire scene with no formal training is nothing but a smokescreen to cover their butt. How does your dept cover the mandate. I know for career depts manpower is often the issue!

2 guys meets the OSHA respiratory requirement for 2 out but is not FAST. NFPA 1710 allows it as an initial team that must be brough up to 4 minimum upon declaration of a working fire.

ANd for those that say NFPA standards are optional:

FEMA uses NFPA 1710 as part of the requirement for SAFER grants and this summer NYS authorized ISO to use it in evaluating FD's in NYS for insurance ratings.

[x129K 1,393]

To this day, we still do not have, or use a FASTeam in MY department. Period.

[wraftery 1,275]

Some light reading, before we careen down this side road one more time.

http://www.emtbravo.net/index.php/topic/48915-fas-team-thought/?hl=+rapid%20+intervention

http://www.emtbravo.net/index.php/topic/48756-fast-requirements/?hl=%2Brapid+%2Bintervention#entry278697

http://www.emtbravo.net/index.php/topic/38681-fast-response-times/?hl=+rapid%20+intervention

http://www.emtbravo.net/index.php/topic/29869-what-equipment-does-your-fasteam-carry/?hl=+rapid%20+intervention

http://www.emtbravo.net/index.php/topic/35611-fasteam-member-pre-requisites/?hl=+rapid%20+intervention

http://www.emtbravo.net/index.php/topic/18887-thoughts-on-fast/?hl=+rapid%20+intervention

http://www.emtbravo.net/index.php/topic/49173-the-fast-fad-what-happened/?hl=fast

You are absolutely right, Sage. I really don't want to do this again.

Before you guys start spewing FAST teams and where to get them, you really have to read the rules of engagement. Without this background information we can have no legitimate discussion.

A few knowledgeable people (Sage is one of them) try to put you on the right track, but you always ignore them and go right back to operating with your misinformation.

Read up, take a course, call PERB, do something rather than making things up and swearing you are correct.

[hudson144 150]

Barry I should have probably been more direct when I posted the question, either way its all a smokescreen for many :-), sorry about bringing this up again but it hit home for me recently. Be safe!

[SageVigiles 1,194]

You are absolutely right, Sage. I really don't want to do this again.

Before you guys start spewing FAST teams and where to get them, you really have to read the rules of engagement. Without this background information we can have no legitimate discussion.

A few knowledgeable people (Sage is one of them) try to put you on the right track, but you always ignore them and go right back to operating with your misinformation.

Read up, take a course, call PERB, do something rather than making things up and swearing you are correct.

Chief, thank you for the complement. That was definitely the point I was trying to make. This horse has been beaten to death, and the people who fear change will still refuse to listen to common sense and logic, no matter what we say about it.

[JM15 386]

Chief, thank you for the complement. That was definitely the point I was trying to make. This horse has been beaten to death, and the people who fear change will still refuse to listen to common sense and logic, no matter what we say about it.

Your right nothing is going to change

[Bnechis 3,961]

Barry I should have probably been more direct when I posted the question, either way its all a smokescreen for many :-), sorry about bringing this up again but it hit home for me recently. Be safe!

Chief, thank you for the complement. That was definitely the point I was trying to make. This horse has been beaten to death, and the people who fear change will still refuse to listen to common sense and logic, no matter what we say about it.

Hudson144's comments were direct and were different than the general threads on FAST that have occured in the past. While some may have tried to stear it back to that dead horse, thats not where this was going.

Based on some of the comments FAST should never be spoken of again because we can no longer gain anything from these threads....Thats B.S.

Hudson had a ligit concern and while others still have the issue of specialty team and who has who has not, we have not solved the problem that hudson brought up.

[CFI609D 119]

Until we see on a regular basis properly trained and appropriately equipped FAST Teams, this topic will remain relevant. Six guys with hand tools are not a proper FAST Team. Six firefighters properly trained (minimum FF1, FF2, Survival, FAST) and properly drilled (working as a team on an ongoing basis practicing the skill learned in the aforementioned classes) does make a FAST Team.

While for some FDs in Westchester this is the norm, sadly they are a minority. Only when this becomes standard practice at all fires will this topic be a dead horse worthy of dismissal.

Just my $0.02!!

[hudson144 150]

I think my concern or point is that if one of my fellow firefighters go down while at a fire where I work it would be a sad outcome! "smoke Screen " still applies here and in reality the 2 members standing by are there to cover the 2 in 2 out then that means we have NO fast team at all at every fire!

[danb 10]

Alright here in my department ( a rather large department with a high call volume) We have some basic requirements to even be on the FAST team.

1) 3 years as an active interior member in the department- thus you have to be 21 to be a official "member" of the FAST team. Although this could be waived for someone coming from another department -we haven't had that situation yet.

2) FF1 or equivalent and the NYSOFPC FAST Class

3) Our FAST team drills on its own at least 1x a month. You are required to make half the drills a year some months they drill only once others there are 2 drills.

4) A member who does not meet 3 years interior can still train with the FAST team, but is not a "member" until they hit the 3 year mark. Although if manpower is tight and they are responding to a job, and are 1 short ( our minimum staffing is 4 FAST members and officer) the officer of the FAST team, or the OIC of our response can give the thumbs up for that member to respond with the FAST

We also have a FAST team Captain who is appointed by the Chief of Department after submitting his/her training records, resume and letter of intent.

My own personal opinion especially here in Orange County I think you will see dedicated FAST teams go by the wayside over the next 3-4 years. I can think of a handful of teams that have been placed out of service permanently due to training and staffing levels. I would much rather as an officer call for a FAST team from 15 minutes away, as opposed to the one 5 minutes down the road that their training or staffing is questionable.

This past weekend our team held a drill on just one thing, our department oxyacetylene torch. How many teams train on that? Soon we will have another drill on the same topic but also include our neighboring teams. I really think teams drilling together and cross training on everyones tools is a major step in the right direction. Who's to say that they won't need it at our job, or if they are going as a 2nd FAST after god forbid we get put into operation?

Our FAST team drills with a few other FAST teams a few drills a year and cross trains on their equipment and the like.

[hudson144 150]

CFI 609 - very accurate and truthful remark!

[CFI609D 119]

CFI 609 - very accurate and truthful remark!

I wish it was not the case. Sadly, too many FDs spend more time and energy on looking good vs. operating safely and training on these mission critical skills.

[tjdeputy 0]

First im going to say sorry for the spelling and gramer up front. Here at the Dept I work as a Dispatcher on a report of a building fire we send 2 engines a heavy rescue and a truck and deputy chief then we send a RIT engine and a medic truck as part of the first alarm if we go to 3 alarms one of the ladder trucks (out of Town) on the thrid alarm is the second Rit tream. all fire fighter in my dept have had some type of RIT training. At the mass Fire acadmy Rit training is part of the full time recruit class as well as the part time call/vol class the Mass Fire academy has a few Rit classes that any fire fighter in the state and out of state can take 1 is a 2 day Rit class the second is a 4 day Rit train the trainer 2 day the thrid is Rit for Chief a Commanding the mayday class and last but the most importin ( I Think it is ) is Rit for Dispatchers. just my 2 cents

[Fireman488 57]

Good argument for FAST being part of FF1

I agree Andy.

FF I, survival and FAST all in one.

Edited November 24, 2013 by Fireman488

[CFI609D 119]

I agree Andy.

FF I, survival and FAST all in one.

I agree Syd and Andy, but with the inclusion of Firefighter II also.

The bottom line is that FF I is not adequate on its own for combat-ready interior firefighters. There should be no difference in training for career and volunteer, nor requirements to operate as interior or on a FAST unit. FF I, FF II, Survival, and FAST should all be minimum requirements here as they are in other jurisdictions.

Edited November 25, 2013 by CFI609D

[FD123FD 5]

Good argument for FAST being part of FF1

Do you think volunteers are ready to be part of a FAST Team after FFI? I don't!

As of right now the minimum qualifications in order to take the FAST class is Firefighter I, Survival and 4 years experience as a firefighter.

I personally am not sure if that is enough. We say FAST/RIT or any other name you want to call it is to be activated for a downed FF. This could be something as quick as grab and go due to a the firefighter having a medical complication inside or as something as complicated as a technical rescue due to a colapsed structure. This can be related to those volunteers that were active and took a a bunch of classes the first couple years and really hasn't been around the block or to a probie that just graduated the Fire Academy and hasn't been around the block. The facts are that the the this task specific training is not for everyone and you really need to be one of those firefighters that carries a pretty big tool box on your shoulders. Does this mean that as volunteers you can't train with your FAST Team? I think that training with your department team and others in your area will only make you that much better of a team as well as a firefighter because you are now adding more tools to your tool box. When you join the fire service there is a lot to learn. You need to continue learning until the day you retire (no matter if your volunteer or paid), and when you retire you most likely will strive to continue learning because your heart was into and still is into it.

[SageVigiles 1,194]

I will pose the exact same scenario I've posed a million times on this forum:

At the exact moment that YOU call a Mayday, would you rather have:

A. The team of 18-21 year olds fresh out of Firefighter 1 standing on the front lawn, ready to go with equipment.

-OR-

B. The elite "Special Operations" FAST crew in their customized FAST rig still en route from 3 towns away.

People are acting like the basics of a RIT operation are some form of black magic attainable only by the saltiest, most senior Firefighters. Sure, would it be preferable to have a bunch of experienced senior guys to do it? Sure. But the situation isn't always going to allow for that.

Say it with me: RIT/FAST is NOT a specialized unit. It is a basic function that must be performed at ALL fires, just like fire attack, ventilation, search and rescue, water supply, etc. So ALL Firefighters need to be trained to perform it... Are some people going to gravitate towards that training more than other aspects? Sure, as with anything else in the fire service. But its not a something that any of us can say is "not our job." It absolutely NEEDS to be a part of basic Firefighter training.

Edited November 25, 2013 by SageVigiles

[CFI609D 119]

Do you think volunteers are ready to be part of a FAST Team after FFI? I don't!

As of right now the minimum qualifications in order to take the FAST class is Firefighter I, Survival and 4 years experience as a firefighter.

Personally, I don't think they are ready to be interior firefighters after only FF I, forget being assigned to a high-intensity rapid intervention unit. IMHO: FF I, FF II, and Survival should be successfully completed prior to taking FAST. And it is not just an issue of courses and formal training as FAST skills need to be practiced as a unit on an ongoing basis.

[FD123FD 5]

OK. Lets not take commentary out of context.

Lets try and compare apples to apples. Because this scenario isn't:

"A. The team of 18-21 year olds fresh out of Firefighter 1 standing on the front lawn, ready to go with equipment.

-OR-

B. The elite "Special Operations" FAST crew in their customized FAST rig still en route from 3 towns away."

I know that when a firefighter graduates Firefighter I in New York State they are no where near ready to be on a Rapid Intervention Team. This has nothing to do with the Instructors, the students themselves or the Firefighter I curriculum to how it is written. They come out knowing what they are suppose to...It's the initial entry program for firefighting personnel. Do these firefighter meet the two in/two out criteria? Yes, they do. Would they be able to go in and grab a firefighter? Possibly, but this depends 100% on the scenario they are put into.

I much rather take 3 firefighters with experience responding responding from the adjacent jurisdiction on a Rescue, Truck or Engine without all their fancy FAST equipment (I know some of you may be screaming well this isn't a FAST Team). Well the response time is a lot less then those FAST Teams coming from "3 towns away" and depending again on the scenario given, they will be more effective then 2/4/6 firefighters fresh out of Firefighter I. This may sound cruel so please try not to take this the wrong way, but taking 4 firefighters just our of Firefighter I and sending them into a structure could become negligent on the Chief's end depending on the scenario. Even after completing 87 hours of Firefighter I, 9 hours of Survival and 15 hours of FAST. If they aren't prepared because they don't have experience, then they aren't prepared. You have a risk vs. reward situation.

Do I think that all firefighters should be trained to perform FAST, yes I do. Just like I think that all firefighters should be trained to the level of Rescue Technician Basic, and have taken additional classes such as Truck Company, Engine Company, and so on. Why? Because this makes you a more knowledgeable Firefighter, a better firefighter. All these additional classes you end up taking connect like a puzzle, if you understand the concepts of what you are doing. Firefighter I and youtube just isn't good enough.

[SageVigiles 1,194]

I realize the scenario I was giving was an extreme scenario and actual circumstances will likely end up somewhere in between, but it illustrates the point I was trying to make, which is that making RIT/FAST a Special Ops resource and only considering certain departments in your county/region to be used for it is shortsighted. Because you might not be fortunate enough to have the county/regional RIT/FAST as your neighboring department, so you very well may be waiting for the guys from 3 towns over. Its all up to the geographical luck of the draw unless we hold ALL of our people to be trained on that task.

IF we train ALL of our personnel in RIT/FAST we will be able to get a good cross section of experience assigned to most of the RIT/FASTs on our fire scenes instead, but it should be a training requirement because it is a function that MUST be set up at all structure fires. Its not an option, its a must. Period. Which means that it needs to be a part of our regular training schedule. There's no logical reason you're going to give me that will justify why we should NOT teach ALL our members how to self-rescue AND rescue their fellow members. Its an absolutely essential set of skills, end of story. Of course some people are going to be better at it or more into it than others. But we need to ensure we all have the basics. This concept is not going away.

Look at Bridgeport, CT. Relatively large, very busy urban department. But unless something changed recently, one of the changes that came up after the deaths of LT Velasquez and FF Baik is that after every structure fire they do a MAYDAY/RIT drill. If they have the time, what excuse do any of us have?

Edited November 25, 2013 by SageVigiles

[CFI609D 119]

I agree with most of what you are saying. My point, however, is that before even starting to worry about special operations, etc. we need to get our line firefighters better trained, better drilled, and better prepared. FAST training is very important but too many FDs are cutting corners and not spending enough time on the fundamentals.

[bad box 371]

FAST / RIT is not supposed to be a special op's resource or a special team, county team, select group of folks who are trained differently or to a higher level than other firefighters, etc. FAST / RIT skills are necessary for EVERY firefighter every bit as much as any other firefighting essential functions are. When a MAYDAY is transmitted, IMMEDIATE action by knowledgeable, skilled firefighters is required. FAST / RIT operations are often required very early on during an incident, obviously we all need to be ready to perform appropriately and immediately when a firefighter requires assistance due to entrapment or medical condition while in a hazardous location. FAST / RIT training absolutely needs to be a requirement for new firefighters prior to certification. Currently certified firefighters who are not FAST / RIT certified should be required to attend the course and become certified. Firefighting is not a game, a passtime or a hobby, it's about life and death. Those who don't see it that way need to find a different calling.

[ex-commish 490]

FAST / RIT is not supposed to be a special op's resource or a special team, county team, select group of folks who are trained differently or to a higher level than other firefighters, etc. FAST / RIT skills are necessary for EVERY firefighter every bit as much as any other firefighting essential functions are. When a MAYDAY is transmitted, IMMEDIATE action by knowledgeable, skilled firefighters is required. FAST / RIT operations are often required very early on during an incident, obviously we all need to be ready to perform appropriately and immediately when a firefighter requires assistance due to entrapment or medical condition while in a hazardous location. FAST / RIT training absolutely needs to be a requirement for new firefighters prior to certification. Currently certified firefighters who are not FAST / RIT certified should be required to attend the course and become certified. Firefighting is not a game, a passtime or a hobby, it's about life and death. Those who don't see it that way need to find a different calling.

Well said

[wraftery 1,275]

Here's a question that fits this thread.

When you do live fire training, do you

1. Train new or up and coming IC's along with your Chiefs?

2. Plan a surprise simulated Mayday to which the IC must react? (e.g. an inside officer at a given time calls a Mayday-collapse- members trapped)

3. Do you do this simulated Mayday before a FAST team arrives? (so that the 2-OUT and the on-scene personnel must be utilized)

4. Do you critique the events?

Do you think you should?