The Great Relocate Debate

[Remember585 815]

I know this topic usually generates some debate, so here goes.

Often, when a department is operating at a major / prolonged incident, the IC requests apparatus to move up and cover that department / area. For larger departments you will here some units from that department go to different stations. Smaller departments call Mutual Aid to fill out this request.

Here's my questions.

1. What dictates what you are moving in / moving around? Is there an old charter from your municipality or a By-Law that requires a certain number of units at all times? Is it based on call volume or an anticipated need for that resource at the scene and you want it closer?

2. Should units moving up to another station / department only to sit in their station be using Lights & Sirens?

3. Should you send an apparatus that you feel is so vital to your home field that you need to bring someone else in to cover you? (IE you have one Truck that you relocate to Department 2, then you request Department 3 to backfill your station).

I'm not pointing fingers or saying one way is right, just looking for input.

Thanks.

[antiquefirelt 994]

Interesting topic, with I'm sure many opinions.

1. Up this way, 99% of the FD's are volunteer and they tend to call M/A to the scene mostly, with a few calling for station coverage. Oddly, our career crews get requested to at least two FD's for station coverage, while these stations sit empty 90% of the time (all POC). It doesn't seem to be all that sensible to call in station coverage if the station is typically unmanned unless due to the incident the nearest units are significantly further away? If you need more units for staging, then ask for units to stage, but as covering assignments to FD's that are running less than 100 calls a year?

On the other end of the spectrum, we request M/A for covering units whenever we have a third alarm or greater, and quite often the covering units are sent on other runs.

2. Units do not run lights and sirens to covering or staging assignments.

3. We have no apparatus so vital to us that we keep it at "home" but we do ensure we have primary EMS and fire apparatus to respond to other calls for service, so the station is typically covered (excluding ladder service due to the scarce aerial resources in our area 3 total!)

[dashield 61]

Funny that your brought that up, I have recently been thinking about the same thing that happens in Orange County.

1. Dept A is operating at a BS call, quite often they only have one apparatus on scene operating (because that's all they could staff). Dept A calls for Dept B to standby at Dept A's firehouse. Dept. B then calls Dept. C to standby at Dept B's firehouse, it becomes an endless cycle until they finally get to a dept that can actually staff more then one crew.

2. Dept A (who only does 150 calls a year) calls for not one but two standby companies while they are operating at an incident..... The taxpayers are better off.... Lets by quite honest, if you do 150 runs a year what is the probability that you will have a second call, and then if it does happen why not just dispatch a mutual aid dept then....

3. Dept A, B, and C are all operating at a big old barn burner..... each dept then calls for there own standby companies. Why not just have one standby company cover all three depts?

Just a few examples of problems that develop when everyone has there own kingdoms!

[bad box 371]

I was under the impression that decisions regarding station coverage are the responsibility of the county fire coordinator.

[Bnechis 3,961]

I was under the impression that decisions regarding station coverage are the responsibility of the county fire coordinator.

Nope, they are the responsability of the fire chief

[Bnechis 3,961]

2. Dept A (who only does 150 calls a year) calls for not one but two standby companies while they are operating at an incident..... The taxpayers are better off.... Lets by quite honest, if you do 150 runs a year what is the probability that you will have a second call, and then if it does happen why not just dispatch a mutual aid dept then....

They average one call every 2.4 days. since they are out on a call, statistically they should have returned about 58 hours before the next call. It is more likely that the mutual aid community will have an incident than they will.

[bad box 371]

Nope, they are the responsability of the fire chief

If that is accurate, it should be looked at. The fire chief of one department making improper move up / relocate decisions affects the safety of people (civilians as well as firefighters) in districts over which he has no responsibility.

[spin_the_wheel 460]

If that is accurate, it should be looked at. The fire chief of one department making improper move up / relocate decisions affects the safety of people (civilians as well as firefighters) in districts over which he has no responsibility.

Most departments have multiple alarm preplanned procedures dispatchers will follow. If the incident is that big and goes above what's written, a Chief or IC can just say "cover my station with 1 and 1 from wherever" and then its the dispatch center who can move around what's needed.

The dispatch center should be next in line to assign units. When incidents get that big even the best Chief or IC running the show has no idea what's going on elsewhere in the county, who's available and who's not. The dispatcher will know what's out of service, what dept. is at a funeral, what dept. has had a problem all morning covering their own alarms, etc...

[TFD141@aol.com 26]

We have gone to requesting standing by in "your HQ" to cover the operating FD (requested when we are operating only larger fires that has tax our manpower and apparatus) and they can cover both districts and go to the next alarm in either district. Having a crew in quarters saves the extra transport time if you waited to call them out to cover your district. I think taking the 150 alarms and dividing over 365 days isn't fair, as sometimes and usually when at the worst possible time, you get one or two or more calls in one day and then nothing for several days, so for peace of mind you call for MA coverage. so to make sure you have someone you place a MA on standby in their quarters. If you think you may need more crews at the initial larger incident we move the unit into our quarters as a strategic staging and same time covering any possible other calls. What does career FD's do when they go below minimum manning when called to cover other areas? Do they (career) call in on OT to cover their area or let it go? If they do call in on OT, who pays the requesting district or eat the cost?

[Bnechis 3,961]

1)We have gone to requesting standing by in "your HQ" to cover the operating FD and they can cover both districts and go to the next alarm in either district. Having a crew in quarters saves the extra transport time if you waited to call them out to cover your district. I think taking the 150 alarms and dividing over 365 days isn't fair, as sometimes and usually when at the worst possible time, you get one or two or more calls in one day and then nothing for several days,

2)What does career FD's do when they go below minimum manning when called to cover other areas? Do they (career) call in on OT to cover their area or let it go? If they do call in on OT, who pays the requesting district or eat the cost?

1) yes we know that the calls are not evenly spread out, but my point was its more likely that the covering dept will have a call than the requesting one. Your "standby" response answers that issue.

2) Depends on the dept. The larger ones generally do not need to (as they have the resources to cover most incidents, they would need to call in ot or get released if while covering they themselves had a working fire), the smallest ones need to. The county mutual aid plan requires the responding mutual aid depts to cover their own costs, except when their is a loss of equipment (as per NYS GML). When the dept. eats the cost, it is so that when they need help they get it, since otherwise they may be too small to handle their own workers.

[WAS967 97]

NYS V&T Section 114-b. "Emergency Operation. The operation, or parking, of an authorized emergency vehicle, when such

vehicle is engaged in transporting a sick or injured person, transporting prisoners, pursuing an actual or suspected

violator of the law, or responding to, or working or assisting at the scene of an accident, disaster, police call, alarm of

fire, actual potential release of hazardous material or other emergency. Emergency operation shall not include returning

form such service."

Relocating doesn't fall under the above. Use of RLS is not authorized and is not only technically illegal but could result in civil or criminal penalties if anything happens. Don't do it.

[Bnechis 3,961]

NYS V&T Section 114-b. "Emergency Operation. The operation, or parking, of an authorized emergency vehicle, when such

vehicle is engaged in transporting a sick or injured person, transporting prisoners, pursuing an actual or suspected

violator of the law, or responding to, or working or assisting at the scene of an accident, disaster, police call, alarm of

fire, actual potential release of hazardous material or other emergency. Emergency operation shall not include returning

form such service."

Relocating doesn't fall under the above. Use of RLS is not authorized and is not only technically illegal but could result in civil or criminal penalties if anything happens. Don't do it.

I am not suggesting RLS for relocates, but playing devils advocate here

"or responding to, or working or assisting at the scene of an accident, disaster, police call, alarm of fire, actual potential release of hazardous material or other emergency."

If I am responding to an alarm of fire just not to the scene and have been assigned to standing by in another fire station or in stagging, and since they have specific prohabitions to RLS (returning to qtrs) where is it illegal to do so?

There are always civil or criminal penalties if you crash...RLS or not.

I am not a lawyer, but I did stay at a holiday inn express last night.......

[x635 4,066]

Great topic.

As mentioned in some posts, dispatchers should have THE say in who gets relocated. They can see the bigger picture, and can make sure it will not strip down all resources in one area.

When calling for additional apparatus to the scene, protocol and dispatch should dictate. For example, if the IC makes a S/C for Anytown's Tower Ladder, but doesn't know it's out of service or on another call, that wastes time. Mutual aid shouldn't be department specific, and alarm levels and S/C's should be pre-desginated. You don't hear major city IC's call for specific departments and apparatus, rather they request a second alarm or a special call i.e. foam unit. A task-force type concept should also be studied for Westchester.

I mean, why even have a multi-million dollar CAD system if the IC is going to override it on every job? You could throw it out and just go paper with run cards again.

[antiquefirelt 994]

Great topic.

When calling for additional apparatus to the scene, protocol and dispatch should dictate. For example, if the IC makes a S/C for Anytown's Tower Ladder, but doesn't know it's out of service or on another call, that wastes time. Mutual aid shouldn't be department specific, and alarm levels and S/C's should be pre-desginated. You don't hear major city IC's call for specific departments and apparatus, rather they request a second alarm or a special call i.e. foam unit. A task-force type concept should also be studied for Westchester.

I mean, why even have a multi-million dollar CAD system if the IC is going to override it on every job? You could throw it out and just go paper with run cards again.

While in general it would be great to utilize a multi-million dollar CAD system to it's full ability, typically it's only as good as the information entered into it. It's hard to compare to a large city or county systems responses, as when you start talking about assistance from outside FD's you have varying levels of training, staffing and equipment, though all call an Engine Co. an Engine Co. In my area this is the most significant reason our CAD system is under utilized. Updates are too infrequent, many local VFD's, staffing is inconsistent and proper equipment "typing" or minimum equipment lists are non-existent; all hamper a system of standardized responses.

One could build a decent system is the FD's involved agreed to give up some local control for the greater good, but sadly this is far from the reality of the situation. We all want to be part of a bigger better system as long is we don't have to be the one's to change! At least you have numerous people in the Westchester area that understand the issue and are trying despite numerous obstacles.

Edited October 28, 2013 by antiquefirelt

[firecapt32 282]

I do believe that all Chiefs have a chance to review to their running card or rather now it might be called their CAD and decide before the S**t hit the fan just who they want responding to their department.

Then it is all laid out for the dispatchers. All the IC has to do is say give me a second or a third or cover my quarters, its all laid out. The coordinators on arrival to a multiple alarm fire, informs the IC as to what he has at the scene(in mutual aid) what he has covering(in mutual aid) and if he requests and additional men or equipment. He then becomes a liaison between the IC and the County for any additional equipment or apparatus or other recourses that the IC may require.

In conclusion it is pretty simple the Chiefs just have to keep a current CAD, but having said that-- there might be alarms in other places which then we would depend on the professionalism of the dispatchers to make correct decisions and keep everyone informed.

That's my two cents on the situation

[kinkchaser 352]

What 635 also asked in the original post , do you respond lights and sirens to a relocation ?? New question, is it ever proper ?

[kinkchaser 352]

.SORRY, IT WAS 585, MY MISTAKE

[Bnechis 3,961]

What 635 also asked in the original post , do you respond lights and sirens to a relocation ?? New question, is it ever proper ?

.SORRY, IT WAS 585, MY MISTAKE

635 - 585 = I was told there would be no math......

[ex-commish 490]

What 635 also asked in the original post , do you respond lights and sirens to a relocation ?? New question, is it ever proper ?

That would depend if you consider relocation an emergency. I do not and don't beileve you should respond to a relocation with RLS.

[thebreeze 194]

I think it depends on an areas call volume. Total lack of fire protection in a densely populated, busy area with high call volume could be considered a true emergency.

[Nite Boss 34]

Ok,maybe I'm confused,if there is no emergency,such as driving to another one's quarters,how do you justify going Lights and siren's? If and only If, another call comes in,than it's an Emergency,and you go lights and sirens. God help the driver,officer ,chief and taxpayers of the municipality,if that rig gets into an accident,relocating to stand-by in another FD. Not only will the Dept get sued,the officer or Chief and driver may get sued personnally,and if the lawyers can prove negligence on anyone's part,you could be held liable and if punitive damages,that come out of your pocket,not the Department.Sure wouldn't want that headache..

With all the comments on here about let's be safe and what-not,how anyone can advocate screaming to another town to sit in the firehouse,lights and sirens,is mind-boggling..

For that matter,why do we still respond to CO (No Symptoms) calls,and other nuisance non- emergency calls,lights and sirens? That's for another day though....

Just my thoughts...Cover your A$$.....

[robert benz 344]

Ok,maybe I'm confused,if there is no emergency,such as driving to another one's quarters,how do you justify going Lights and siren's? If and only If, another call comes in,than it's an Emergency,and you go lights and sirens. God help the driver,officer ,chief and taxpayers of the municipality,if that rig gets into an accident,relocating to stand-by in another FD. Not only will the Dept get sued,the officer or Chief and driver may get sued personnally,and if the lawyers can prove negligence on anyone's part,you could be held liable and if punitive damages,that come out of your pocket,not the Department.Sure wouldn't want that headache..

With all the comments on here about let's be safe and what-not,how anyone can advocate screaming to another town to sit in the firehouse,lights and sirens,is mind-boggling..

For that matter,why do we still respond to CO (No Symptoms) calls,and other nuisance non- emergency calls,lights and sirens? That's for another day though....

Just my thoughts...Cover your A$$.....

my 2 cents we relocate to yonkers, quite a drive if I am stopping at all the red lights. While enroute we get called to respond to 123 whatever street, going to be quite the delay. As for getting into an accident any way you look at it, there will be trouble if you were "screaming" to a incident. While I am at it, relocating is a dispatched incident, Today were we dispatched to the scene of a working fire in Mt Vernon, then redirected to cover a house. I agree once in town, near your destination, you can go 10-20. You should always drive with due regard where ever and however you are getting there.

As someone else posted, I think a lot depends on how busy the dept you are responding to is, and how far is the response.

[markmets415 524]

We have all our assignments setup in the CADS with Dutchess 911, which in most confirmed structure fire or larger type incidents, our station is automatically backfilled from a mutual aid company which obviously could depend on what department is available, as the normal relocation department is out on a run, or down an Engine, they then would be skipped over and we would get the next department and so on. Our OG for relocating or standby to another station is always no lights or siren, headlights only, that goes for any non emergency type calls that we may get (the old cat stuck in the tree) as well. Command in most cases will provide a progress report to the dispatch center as soon as they can to back down the response mode of the responding equipment.

For several years our preplans/dispatches have been set-up with placing mutual aid on the initial dispatch with us for those larger scaled incidents or structures within our fire district, our entire Battalion (5 departments) is very rural and mostly without hydrants so obviously we have to do things differently, like having to lay 5" from a static water source and drafting to supply water to a scene or running tanker shuttles, thus having those resources on the road as soon as possible makes a huge difference, its a lot easier to return them if they are not needed.

[Lucifer 6]

What would the Jury think?

[kinkchaser 352]

I think Robert Benz summed it up in real life terms

[SOlsonBFDL14 35]

Great topic.

As mentioned in some posts, dispatchers should have THE say in who gets relocated. They can see the bigger picture, and can make sure it will not strip down all resources in one area.

When calling for additional apparatus to the scene, protocol and dispatch should dictate. For example, if the IC makes a S/C for Anytown's Tower Ladder, but doesn't know it's out of service or on another call, that wastes time. Mutual aid shouldn't be department specific, and alarm levels and S/C's should be pre-desginated. You don't hear major city IC's call for specific departments and apparatus, rather they request a second alarm or a special call i.e. foam unit. A task-force type concept should also be studied for Westchester.

I mean, why even have a multi-million dollar CAD system if the IC is going to override it on every job? You could throw it out and just go paper with run cards again.

This is something we do on a regular basis, but I have a different perspective being in a large city. We still have running cards & for M/A abide by them. On Tuesday, for example, the City of Newton (adjacent to Boston to the west), transmitted a 3rd Alarm for a structure fire. Engine 51 & District Chief 11 responded directly to the fire while Ladder 11 covered in their city. While this incident was ongoing, a 2nd Alarm was transmitted for a second (unrelated) structure fire in another part of the city. Ladder 11 responded to the fire from their cover assignment as the First Due truck & District 11 responded again. At this time, Newton requested an additional Engine & Truck from us (Engine 3/Ladder 26) for station coverage because all they had was out of town/Mutual Aid companies operating at the 2nd Alarm. So even though it wasn't on the card, they Special Called us. Same thing goes for incidents in the city. There are certain companies that due to their location always have to be covered. For example, whenever Ladder 25 in West Roxbury goes to training or is out of service for any reason, their house MUST be covered by another truck from the city. When we (Ladder 14) are out though, we generally are not backfilled. Protocol in Boston is that each District should have at a minimum 2 Engines & 1 Truck in each District (Typically each District has 3/2) and if we fall below 2/1, for whatever reason, companies must be relocated to cover in that District. Typically out of town companies do NOT respond to fires in the city unless one occurs while they are covering at a city firehouse. Mutual Aid into the city, with a few exceptions, doesn't begin until we've transmitted at least a 5th Alarm (Or equillivant) in our city

[16fire5 693]

For example, whenever Ladder 25 in West Roxbury goes to training or is out of service for any reason, their house MUST be covered by another truck from the city. When we (Ladder 14) are out though, we generally are not backfilled.

We have examples like this in the City of New York. While I can see how some may view the relocation to a house that does 150 runs a year as a poor use of resources I think that travel time must come into play also. If the next due to a empty firehouse will be in the 15 minute travel time range then it probably makes sense to cover that house. If on the other hand 3 firehouses in close proximity are empty for a working fire then a relocation into a single centrally located firehouse makes more sense.

The FDNY does use RLS on relocations that is in the department's opinion justified by getting equipment into an area that has deffecient fire protection. I think that Robert Benz gave a real practical example why using RLS to get to the response are makes practical sense.

[STAT213 332]

Our run cards are set up so that each alarm mirrors the first alarm, for the most part. We have four staffed stations, and when our BC calls for station coverage, either by declaring a working fire, or asking for stations to be covered, we get an engine into each of our stations. That way, the town is covered, and our next alarm companies are in place, ready to respond. For the most part, this is done with traffic. There isn't an emergency waiting in that fire station.

The lack of fire protection argument seems thin to me. You can't always have an engine four minutes from your door. We do the best we can, in the safest manner possible. To me, that means cover assignments go with traffic.

[M' Ave 1,466]

Chief Benz hits the nail on the head.

In our case, FDNY regulations state that warning devices should be used when relocating to the quarters of another company. I doubt very much that this would contradict V/T law.

Relocators are chosen based on availability of units in the vicinity. If an engine is relocated from one house, a truck will most likely be relocated from a neighboring house. This leaves the area with a neighboring 1+1. In order to spread protection evenly, units are often relocated a couple of battalions away. Lights and sirens are necessary for the timely re-alocation of resources. The alarm ticket we receive its titled and, "Emergency Relocation" and that's what it is.

From the moment a unit receives the ticket to relocate, they essentially become that company. This is why you are now addressed as company "X acting Y". If engine X is located on 42nd st and is relocated to company Y on 85th st, what good are they if they're not in the vicinity quickly?

Obviously a response to a relocation is not expedited with the urgency of a response to fire with people trapped. While responses must always be executed with caution and due regard for safety, we all know that we can ratchet it down even further when conditions warrant.

Re-locations should be predetermined and set up in the CAD with the dispatcher. These decisions shouldn't be left to someone on the fireground who has enough to worry about already. They should automatically be triggered based on alarm level and emergency warning devices should be used with usual due regard while relocating, at least until the neighborhood to be covered is reached.

Edited November 2, 2013 by M' Ave

[INIT915 1,119]

Ok,maybe I'm confused,if there is no emergency,such as driving to another one's quarters,how do you justify going Lights and siren's? If and only If, another call comes in,than it's an Emergency,and you go lights and sirens. God help the driver,officer ,chief and taxpayers of the municipality,if that rig gets into an accident,relocating to stand-by in another FD. Not only will the Dept get sued,the officer or Chief and driver may get sued personnally,and if the lawyers can prove negligence on anyone's part,you could be held liable and if punitive damages,that come out of your pocket,not the Department.Sure wouldn't want that headache..

With all the comments on here about let's be safe and what-not,how anyone can advocate screaming to another town to sit in the firehouse,lights and sirens,is mind-boggling..

For that matter,why do we still respond to CO (No Symptoms) calls,and other nuisance non- emergency calls,lights and sirens? That's for another day though....

Just my thoughts...Cover your A$$.....

Well said.