Has The Rescue Pumper Become The Engine Company Quint?

[x635 4,066]

I read an interesting article about Rescue Pumpers in the Fire Apparatus and Equipment magazine.

One of the lines I read was about the Rescue Pumper becoming the Engine company version of the Quint. It carries all the equipment, but it doesn't serve well as a pumper or rescue truck, and the amount of equipment it carries can limit functionality.

It maintains a dual function with limited manpower and apparatus, but why are the same concerns about a Quint not applicable to a Rescue Pumper?

Can it affect an ISO rating?

Also, what is the definition of a rescue pumper, or pumper rescue? And which one is it? A pumper that's a rescue? A rescue with a pump?

[antiquefirelt 994]

I can't comment for all cases, but in our case we went from two apparatus to one. he first was a light rescue vehicle with a set of Jaws and a few hand tools and a standard class A engine. Our "Squad" now carries far more rescue tools and no less engine company tools, with the addition of more "ladder company tools (saws, rakes, hooks, etc) air monitoring equipment, RIT gear, some level C and B Haz-mat PPE and mitigation gear, and more.

I think the larger issue with quints vs.standard apparatus is less the apparatus and more about the company. Though it is more difficult to put a full ladder company and a full class A engine on the same apparatus given the amount of space the hose bed, tank and aerial all take from the same functional area. This isn't to say there isn't a downside to the rescue engine. When you're assigned to one function, typically the other is unavailable. In our case our Squad is our lead engine with the career staff assigned to it each tour. Last week we provided "extra" confined space coverage to the largest industrial plant in town, and to ensure the crew (hired at OT for said duty) was properly equipped we had to strip the con-space gear from the Squad so the apparatus could still be used for other emergencies while maintaining a ready(and equipped) rescue team.

I'm sure Bnechis can more accurately address the ISO point, but I do not believe you'd be penalized for a rescue engine unless you were not carrying the full engine company tool compliment. The reason quints are "penalized" is they're unable to perform the two functions completely separately where both functions are being rated. Rescue companies are not a requirement of ISO. For an apparatus to count as two it'd have to be able to be in two places at once and be staffed with two complete companies, both are nearly impossible in today's economy.

As for which is it: a rescue pumper or pumper rescue? Who cares? We labelled ours a Squad as it was notably different from all other apparatus in the area. As the saying goes "you can put a cat in the oven, but that don't make it a biscuit!" Up this way there are very few true rescue companies, in fact most FD ambulances in Maine are called Rescues. To my knowledge Portland FD is the only one on Maine to have a rescue company (just came back on line after disbanding it a few years back). And theirs is minimally staffed (all inclusive 3 personnel).

Edited October 22, 2013 by antiquefirelt

[Morningjoe 162]

I'm not sure how a class A pumper, regardless of whether its designated as a rescue pumper or not can perform poorly as a pumper. If so, maybe the pump needs to be tested more often if it's not getting the required flow...

Sarcasm all aside, honestly, besides the NFPA requirements that a class A pumper needs of a fire pump capable of pumping not less than 750gpm and have 300 gal of water in an on board tank, plus specific hose amounts, plus ground ladders, what tools do you need to place on an engine besides a chauffeur's compartment with adapters, wye / Siamese connections and valves that fit your departments needs?

So now we have a large vehicle, outfitted with a pump, hose, ground ladders and now a ton of empty cabinet space. Why not add some immediate scene stabilization equipment to compliment that of a rescue or truck company, such as minimal extrication tools, minimal hazmat equipment, minimal technical rescue equipment, some medical equipment... all to begin to initially stabilize the scene while the units more suited for the call arrive?

If you're talking about a department where they're completely substituting a heavy rescue company with rescue engines or about this in terms of man power issues in a career department, or, even a step further, if you're pulling what Volusia County, FL pulled with these atrocities http://www.examiner.com/slideshow/volusia-county-fire-rescue-engine#slide=1, then yes, I can see the issue. And yes, when a medical call comes in, they takes an entire engine company covering a rural area out of service, and turns it into an ambulance ride to the hospital....

edit: beat me by a second AntiquefireLT...

Edited October 24, 2013 by Morningjoe

[Bnechis 3,961]

I'm sure Bnechis can more accurately address the ISO point, but I do not believe you'd be penalized for a rescue engine unless you were not carrying the full engine company tool compliment. The reason quints are "penalized" is they're unable to perform the two functions completely separately where both functions are being rated. Rescue companies are not a requirement of ISO. For an apparatus to count as two it'd have to be able to be in two places at once and be staffed with two complete companies, both are nearly impossible in today's economy.

Correct you are not penalized if you carry the full compliment of engine compnay tools & hose.

ISO credits Quints as 1.5 units: an Engine and 1/2 a ladder or 1/2 an engine and 1 ladder (the dept can choice). Now this can help or hurt your rating. ISO requires 2 engines & 1 ladder or service company plus water supply units if no hydrants. Ladder vs service is based on building size/height in district and a service company is a rescue. Now if you send 2 quints thats 2 engines and 1 ladder you can be credited (but you still need 6 on each minimum [4 engine, 2 ladder]) if you take and engine and ladder and replace it with a quint it will hurt your ratings.

Rescue pumper works the same way, Its an engine & 1/2 service company so 2 of them may reduce the need for a ladder, but most rescue pumpers do not carry enough ground ladders to even be close and agian maining needs to be for both companies, minimum 6.

Generally a rescue pumper does not hurt ISO rating, but it may not help.

[Bnechis 3,961]

1) I'm not sure how a class A pumper, regardless of whether its designated as a rescue pumper or not can perform poorly as a pumper. If so, maybe the pump needs to be tested more often if it's not getting the required flow...

2) , besides the NFPA requirements that a class A pumper needs of a fire pump capable of pumping not less than 1,250gpm and have 750 gal of water in an on board tank, plus specific hose amounts, plus ground ladders, what tools do you need to place on an engine besides a chauffer's compartment with adapters, wye / Siamese connections and valves that fit your departments needs?

3) So now we have a large vehicle, outfitted with a pump, hose, ground ladders and now a ton of empty cabinet space. Why not add some immediate scene stabilization equipment to compliment that of a rescue or truck company, such as minimal extrication tools, minimal hazmat equipment, minimal technical rescue equipment, some medical equipment... all to begin to initially stabilize the scene while the units more suited for the call arrive?

1) having spec'ed a number of rescue pumpers, the main issue that causes it to perform poorly is poor hose layout. I have seen a couple that require a harness and belay line to get to the hose bed. Others that are great, all in the design.

2) NFPA 1901 requires a class A pumper has a 750gpm pump (minimum) and carries a minimum of 300 gallons of water. Generally most are 1,000gpm / 500 gallon minimum

3) nothing wrong with that, but rarely have I seen where that back-up exists. Most depts that run rescue pumpers do not have enough equipment to handle the job WITHOUT the availablity of some back-up. Still can be a great idea as a 1st response unit.

[bad box 371]

Rescue pumpers are an excellent choice for volunteer departments that are not staffed with technical rescue certified firefighters and whose main rescue function is automible crash patient extrications. Considering the great staffing difficulty that many V.F.D.'s have been experiencing for years (especially during weekdays when many members are unavailable due to work responsibilities as well as late night / early morning when members are sleeping before they go to work) it frequently is difficult for one department to staff an ambulance, a rescue truck and a pumper for response to a vehicle crash. The rescue pumper provides rescue equipment, vehicle stabilization equipment, equipment for initial patient care, firefighting capability and scene support devices (cones / flares, scene lighting, etc.) and eliminates the need to decide whether a poor turnout of personnel will require making a choice of bringing either a rescue truck or a pumper. As far as 'heavy rescues' go, many departments equip them with some truck company tools and the same equipment that a properly equipped rescue pumper carries and little more other than possibly a cascade system or a command post. True heavy rescues are equipped to provide rescue technician certified firefighters with the necessary equipment to assist them in dealing with high angle, confined space, trench, structure collapse, water rescues, etc.. And, in most cases the heavy rescue rig can't by itself carry everything that may be needed at a technical rescue incident. As a result, many fire departments have additional special op's support rigs to provide large amounts of shoring, carpentry tools, pavement breakers, air compressors, etc.. Unless a V.F.D. is able to make a commitment to maintain a sufficient number of certified rescue technicians and as a result needs to carry equipment to deal with the various tech. rescue regimens, it's very possible that a rescue pumper is the best choice.

[Bottom of Da Hill 76]

1) having spec'ed a number of rescue pumpers, the main issue that causes it to perform poorly is poor hose layout. I have seen a couple that require a harness and belay line to get to the hose bed. Others that are great, all in the design.

2) NFPA 1901 requires a class A pumper has a 750gpm pump (minimum) and carries a minimum of 300 gallons of water. Generally most are 1,000gpm / 500 gallon minimum

3) nothing wrong with that, but rarely have I seen where that back-up exists. Most depts that run rescue pumpers do not have enough equipment to handle the job WITHOUT the availablity of some back-up. Still can be a great idea as a 1st response unit.

thank you very much,750 tank? never herd of that,

[Morningjoe 162]

2) NFPA 1901 requires a class A pumper has a 750gpm pump (minimum) and carries a minimum of 300 gallons of water. Generally most are 1,000gpm / 500 gallon minimum

I have no idea why I thought it was 750, doesn't even make sense looking back on it. Thanks for the correction and I've updated my post

[velcroMedic1987 330]

thank you very much,750 tank? never herd of that,

750 GPM pump and minimum 300 gallon tank. Re-read his post.

[AFS1970 504]

There have been several attempts to combine equipment, but for some reason the Quint gets the brunt of the criticism. I am no fan of Quints as I have rarely seen them done well. But was there this kind of response to the Quad? I agree that Rescue Pumpers generally can not do much more than be an Engine with a little bit of rescue tools. As for the name, I guess that, like the issues surrounding pumper-tankers, will depend on which it is equipped to do more with?

Squads are a whole other matter because I don't think any two regions use the term the same. In Stamford we had a Squad that was a Pumper and ran as such, then we had a short lived Squad that was a manpower rig but could depending on the day be in an engine, rescue or passenger van. In Greenwich I saw a Squad that was just a suburban, but now they have a squad that is an mobile cascade and lighting truck, which in some places would just be called a utility. In New Jersey a Squad is generally an Ambulance.

[Bottom of Da Hill 76]

750 GPM pump and minimum 300 gallon tank. Re-read his post.

he updated his post to reflect that ,now you go and read his post thank you.hey it happens,