Should departments require members to get flu shots?

[x635 4,066]

Should departments require members to get flu shots? Indicate in the poll above.

Many hospitals and other types of agencies are requiring it. If you don't get it, they make you wear a HEPA mask the entire duration you are in the building.

There's mixed reviews about the flu shot, I know it doesn't completely prevent the flu, but from personal experience, I know it reduces the symptoms quite a bit, in most cases.

Besides health, the flu also affects staffing. While I was in Texas, you could see when the flu went around that year by looking at the schedule and sick time. An analysis after requiring the flu shot showed better attendance during flu season. (people taking off because their child having the flu were not included).

Also, there are a lot of places to get the flu shot. Does your department offer a free flu shot, or have someone come to the station or send you somewhere on each shift to offer it?

[SECTMB 612]

Our department offers a free flu shot, really, why wouldn't you get one. Haven't gotten the flu since getting the shot but I can remember how miserable the flu can be and certainly want to avoid it or limit its' impact.

[FirNaTine 370]

I always though the same thing x635. If a Dept. is offering its members Physicals why not make it mandatory or at least offer the flu shot. Makes sense, especially for those Municipalities who b**** and moan about covering S/L with OT.

[ja3kfd 34]

I say offer it to your members , but not mandatory , everyone is entitled to there own thoughts .

[INIT915 1,119]

Yes.

[Rex_RescuePC 9]

I think they should make it required, many of us come in contact with people on a daily basis. I've never had the flu shot until this year, i work at the medical center & it is now required for healthcare employees to have it. I'm definitely not wearing a mask every day.

[Arbrow06 5]

I think its a personal choice because the flu is avoidable and as the strains morph faster and faster who wants to be getting multiple shots all season long because the strain changes. I rather get sick and actually have the immunity to it rather than get an inactive virus injected into me. Not a huge fan of medicine I guess

[mvfire8989 22]

I think its a personal choice because the flu is avoidable and as the strains morph faster and faster who wants to be getting multiple shots all season long because the strain changes. I rather get sick and actually have the immunity to it rather than get an inactive virus injected into me. Not a huge fan of medicine I guess

You are welcome not to get the shot, and since you are young and probably healthy you will almost certainly survive. Influenza is also potentially avoidable if you either:

A. get the vaccine B. avoid people during flu season OR C. Wear appropriate respiratory protection for the duration of the patient contact through the time when your ambulance is decontaminated.

People can transmit influenza before they experience any symptoms. So this means that we must treat every patient as potentially infectious, and that we also may become ill and transmit this infection to our patients. You may certainly choose not to get vaccinated, I just hope you are willing to stand behind that decision and properly protect yourself from infection, and more importantly protect the patients from being infected by you.

[Arbrow06 5]

You are welcome not to get the shot, and since you are young and probably healthy you will almost certainly survive. Influenza is also potentially avoidable if you either:

A. get the vaccine B. avoid people during flu season OR C. Wear appropriate respiratory protection for the duration of the patient contact through the time when your ambulance is decontaminated.

People can transmit influenza before they experience any symptoms. So this means that we must treat every patient as potentially infectious, and that we also may become ill and transmit this infection to our patients. You may certainly choose not to get vaccinated, I just hope you are willing to stand behind that decision and properly protect yourself from infection, and more importantly protect the patients from being infected by you.

Agreed and as a result I will happily don a surgical mask during instances of patient care and if I develop symptoms I will take my sick but off the road until it passes. Patient care is very important to me and I will have have both hand sanitizer and hand cream to make sure that I am keeping my hands as clean as possible this season.

[velcroMedic1987 330]

 

Agreed and as a result I will happily don a surgical mask during instances of patient care and if I develop symptoms I will take my sick but off the road until it passes. Patient care is very important to me and I will have have both hand sanitizer and hand cream to make sure that I am keeping my hands as clean as possible this season.

 

And when you exceed your allocation of sick days? Gonna still stick to that plan and just take leave without pay?

[Bnechis 3,961]

Many hospitals and other types of agencies are requiring it. If you don't get it, they make you wear a HEPA mask the entire duration you are in the building.

There's mixed reviews about the flu shot, I know it doesn't completely prevent the flu, but from personal experience, I know it reduces the symptoms quite a bit, in most cases.

Also, there are a lot of places to get the flu shot.

Last year the NYS DOH ordered it for hospital personnel. The NYS Nurses Assoc. challenged the order in court, stating DOH did not have the authority to order a flu shot, particularly when DOH could not prove it would prevent the flu. The courts agreed.

This year DOH took a different approach, since the cant order it, they have mandated face makes for any employee that does not have it. They require the face mask at all times when in patient care areas and you must change the mask for each different patient contact.

Now before a blanket mandate, what about those people who are allergic to the egg based shot. The DOH has said their are alternatives, but it appears that no one can get the alternatives because they were not produced. The health dept is sticking to their policy and has told all hospitals shot or mask no exception.

So if you know you are allergic to the shot and it could kill you what is your recourse?

[AFS1970 504]

I am not a big fan of the flu shot, as I know too many people who have become sick after getting the shot. My old department offered it most years, I never took it. I rarely got the flu.

That DOH mandate makes for an interesting employment issue, as the Nurses guessed. However I wonder about another aspect of it. The employer offers the shot, you decline. Because you decline, you must wear and change masks often. Who pays for the masks? One the one hand they are safety equipment and the employer should have to provide it, but on the other hand the employer offered you a choice and you elected the mask, thus you do not have to wear them if you take the shot.

I have no idea if enough masks would be involved that they might become more expensive than the shot, but obviously employers are seeing the shot as less expensive than sick leave. What happens when some employer decides that masks are cheaper than the shot and decided not to offer them to employees? It seems to me that the employment aspects of this mandate have not been fully explored.

[mvfire8989 22]

Now before a blanket mandate, what about those people who are allergic to the egg based shot. The DOH has said their are alternatives, but it appears that no one can get the alternatives because they were not produced. The health dept is sticking to their policy and has told all hospitals shot or mask no exception.

So if you know you are allergic to the shot and it could kill you what is your recourse?

For most people, egg allergy is no longer an absolute contraindication to being vaccinated. Here is an excerpt from a recent paper published in JAMA.

For many years, egg allergy was a contraindication to influenza vaccination, and those with severe allergic reactions (ie, anaphylaxis) should still avoid influenza vaccination. However, recent evidence-based guidance advises that all other egg-allergic patients should receive influenza vaccination based on the rationale that the risks of not vaccinating outweigh the risks of vaccinating these individuals as long as basic precautions are followed. Specifically, the Advisory Committee on Immunization Practices advises that those with an egg allergy who have only experienced hives after egg exposure should receive influenza vaccine with postvaccination observation for 30 mintues.⁹ However, egg-allergic patients with a history of angioedema, respiratory distress, nausea, vomiting, or a reaction that required epinephrine or emergency medical attention after egg exposure should be referred to an allergist for further evaluation.

Talbot TR, Talbot H. Influenza Prevention Update: Examining Common Arguments Against Influenza Vaccination. JAMA.2013;309(9):881-882. doi:10.1001/jama.2013.453.

I suppose that if you still cannot get the vaccine and the non egg based vaccine is not available to you, then yes you would be stuck wearing the mask. It is the responsible thing to do as a healthcare provider.

Edit: Per the company making the "flublok" vaccine with no egg components, availability is expected by thanksgiving.

http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/flublok-influenza-vaccine-availability-update-product-to-be-available-to-allow-vaccination-by-thanksgiving-227219901.html

I am not a big fan of the flu shot, as I know too many people who have become sick after getting the shot. My old department offered it most years, I never took it. I rarely got the flu.

That DOH mandate makes for an interesting employment issue, as the Nurses guessed. However I wonder about another aspect of it. The employer offers the shot, you decline. Because you decline, you must wear and change masks often. Who pays for the masks? One the one hand they are safety equipment and the employer should have to provide it, but on the other hand the employer offered you a choice and you elected the mask, thus you do not have to wear them if you take the shot.

I have no idea if enough masks would be involved that they might become more expensive than the shot, but obviously employers are seeing the shot as less expensive than sick leave. What happens when some employer decides that masks are cheaper than the shot and decided not to offer them to employees? It seems to me that the employment aspects of this mandate have not been fully explored.

This same article has a point for you to consider, "“I never get the flu/I am healthy.” This rationale neglects one of the major reasons vaccination is recommended. While some people, such as healthy adults, may not develop a classic, severe influenza-like illness when infected (and a substantial proportion may have minimal to no symptoms), they likely still can transmit the virus to others. Refusing vaccination because of a perceived low risk ignores the potential risk to close contacts, especially those who cannot get vaccinated or who will not mount a strong immune response to the vaccine and rely on herd immunity for protection. This risk has driven many health care facilities to require influenza vaccination for their HCP as a professional and ethical intervention to protect patient safety and promote a safe workplace."

While I'm sure that someone is crunching the numbers about the masks vs. shots issue that you bring up, that is not really the central issue. If your workplace decided providing masks were cheaper, then they should be worn. In my mind that does not change the ethical responsibility of anyone coming into contact with patients to be properly vaccinated. We have a responsibility not to expose our patients to danger that can easily be prevented. The best way to prevent the flu is to be vaccinated.

Edited October 18, 2013 by mvfire8989

[everybodygoes 331]

How about this, how many of you are up for mandatory drug tests for all members? And at random? You want people to inject themselves with a what if? Then you should all be willing to accept a drug test.

[Bnechis 3,961]

Who pays for the masks?

but obviously employers are seeing the shot as less expensive than sick leave.

OSHA clearly requires the employer to provide ALL PPE

Employers are seeing the shot as less expensive than the DOH Fine for failure to comply

[Bnechis 3,961]

Edit: Per the company making the "flublok" vaccine with no egg components, availability is expected by thanksgiving.

SInce DOH has ordered complience in October and I know at least 6 hospitals that have already forced employees to take the shot, even if they have an issue with it.

[Arbrow06 5]

The other issue is there is always an issue of flu shot shortages. There may be an extra burden on the flu resources during the season when the strain mutates and if they make HCP first up that may be an issue. I also just feel that the flu shot isn't a vaccine because there's no guarantee it will prevent you from getting the flu or carrying a strain of the flu. It just lessens your chances. I wonder how my employer will deal with this as I am not getting the shot. Also I want to see what the checks are to make sure those who don't have shots wear mask and the repercussions if you don't wear mask. What if I don't wear a mask will I lose my EMT cert or what? This is just a really interesting mandate because there's options and due to HIPAA isn't there some privacy amongst what vaccinations I have etc.

[Ga-Lin 86]

Regular surg. masks are ineffective against the flu virus, you must wear a N95 hepa filter mask in the size that has been fit tested for you in order to offer any protection. The flu of 1918 (H1N1 strain by the way) struck down people mostly in their early to mid 20's rather than the usually more supseptable children & seniors. Est wordwide fatalities from that pandemic 75 - 100 MILLION. In 1918 we were still crossing the atlantic by boat the average crossing from Europe was 6-7 days a "fast crossing" took 5. Now we can go from NY to Japan (more than twice the distance) in 24 HOURS or less. True, the virus does morph from season to season and while the vaccine may not prevent the flu it will help in not having a severe case. As for avoiding people with the flu.. in the outbreak of 1918 whole towns tried to quarintine themselves with armed gaurds at thier borders.....it didn't help towns still became infected. My advice would be take your shots like a good boy/girl.

You are welcome not to get the shot, and since you are young and probably healthy you will almost certainly survive. Influenza is also potentially avoidable if you either:

A. get the vaccine B. avoid people during flu season OR C. Wear appropriate respiratory protection for the duration of the patient contact through the time when your ambulance is decontaminated.

People can transmit influenza before they experience any symptoms. So this means that we must treat every patient as potentially infectious, and that we also may become ill and transmit this infection to our patients. You may certainly choose not to get vaccinated, I just hope you are willing to stand behind that decision and properly protect yourself from infection, and more importantly protect the patients from being infected by you.

Agreed and as a result I will happily don a surgical mask during instances of patient care and if I develop symptoms I will take my sick but off the road until it passes. Patient care is very important to me and I will have have both hand sanitizer and hand cream to make sure that I am keeping my hands as clean as possible this season.

[x635 4,066]

Don't many employers require other vaccinations, like those for TB and Hep?

[Ga-Lin 86]

Don't many employers require other vaccinations, like those for TB and Hep?

A PPD skin test is a test to see if you were exposed to TB, there is no vaccine. Depending on where you work they may or may not offer this test depending on your risk of exposure. Hep B shots must be offered by your employer but you can opt out of it & must sign a waiver.

[VBACON 0]

I think that departments should offer them but not require members to get flu shots. Like in a doctors office or a medical facility, the employees are offered the flu shot but it is not a requirement. I think that most employees take advantage of the shot. The individual person knows the consequences if they refuse to get the shot. Other people are allergic to the shot because of eggs or other ingredients that the shot is made of. So, I think it is each individual should have their own choice.

[AntMan 16]

No! If youre sick You stay home... If you work in a Medical center arent you more prone to catching something worse then the flu.. IMO Flu shots should not be necessary... Just my worthless two cents lol

[velcroMedic1987 330]

The other issue is there is always an issue of flu shot shortages. There may be an extra burden on the flu resources during the season when the strain mutates and if they make HCP first up that may be an issue. I also just feel that the flu shot isn't a vaccine because there's no guarantee it will prevent you from getting the flu or carrying a strain of the flu. It just lessens your chances. I wonder how my employer will deal with this as I am not getting the shot. Also I want to see what the checks are to make sure those who don't have shots wear mask and the repercussions if you don't wear mask. What if I don't wear a mask will I lose my EMT cert or what? This is just a really interesting mandate because there's options and due to HIPAA isn't there some privacy amongst what vaccinations I have etc.

HIPPA doesn't apply to the relationship you have with your employer. It has to do with the exchange or sharing of your information with other entities. That horse has been beaten to death here already, there is more than one topic on that that. Your employer is obligated to provide certain vaccinations (Hepatitis, etc.) and you have to either accept them or decline them, in writing usually, so there is a permentant record to comply with OSHA and other regulatoins.

[velcroMedic1987 330]

How about this, how many of you are up for mandatory drug tests for all members? And at random? You want people to inject themselves with a what if? Then you should all be willing to accept a drug test.

Don't we already have mandatory random drug testing in most departments? What's that got to do with taking the flu vaccine? I'm all for drug testing but I'm not sure I like the government or my employer dictating what medications/vaccinations I take.

What's next? The government telling me that I have to take their multi-vitamin or birth control? Hmmmm... Slippery slope!

[everybodygoes 331]

Tell me one volunteer dept that has drug testing. Not only should you be drug tested, but alcohol testing as well if an accident occurs.

[mvfire8989 22]

Don't we already have mandatory random drug testing in most departments? What's that got to do with taking the flu vaccine? I'm all for drug testing but I'm not sure I like the government or my employer dictating what medications/vaccinations I take.

What's next? The government telling me that I have to take their multi-vitamin or birth control? Hmmmm... Slippery slope!

I think a lot of people are missing the whole point of why people who have contact with patients should be vaccinated. We are talking about a disease that has a significant mortality risk for the elderly and otherwise immunocompromised, that we can transmit to our patients when we have NO or very minimal symptoms. It's not going to hurt us that bad, but it could kill them. This disease has a high incidence and prevalence, and it is highly infectious with respiratory droplet transmission. Most other vaccinations that you receive, such as hepatitis B are things that you could potentially get from your patient but not something you would transmit to patients using standard precautions. Hepatitis B is blood borne. I understand the desire to control your own body. The risks from this vaccine are extremely low, it DOES NOT and CANNOT give you the flu. The efficacy is somewhere around 60%. No vaccine reaches 100% efficacy but we administer them because the risk reduction is well researched and statistically significant.

[CFD048 32]

Tell me one volunteer dept that has drug testing. Not only should you be drug tested, but alcohol testing as well if an accident occurs.

Chelsea has had mandatory drug testing each year at your physical for the past 4 years, also the requirement if you are in an accident with a district vehicle you must be tested for drugs/alcohol.

As far as the flu shot in the military we were required to get the shot. most not all were sick the next few days. flu shots should be offered not mandatory.

[WAS967 97]

Would now be a good time to point out that the DOH mandate for "vaccine or mask" doesn't seem to apply to EMS providers?

[SageVigiles 1,194]

Tell me one volunteer dept that has drug testing. Not only should you be drug tested, but alcohol testing as well if an accident occurs.

All volunteer companies in Wallingford, CT do annual drug testing as a part of our annual physicals, exactly the same as the career department. Its part of a larger program to ensure OSHA compliance.

If an officer reasonably believes you are under the influence you will be asked to take a test. There's a whole process to it but it does exist.

Edited October 28, 2013 by SageVigiles

[everybodygoes 331]

Chelsea has had mandatory drug testing each year at your physical for the past 4 years, also the requirement if you are in an accident with a district vehicle you must be tested for drugs/alcohol.

As far as the flu shot in the military we were required to get the shot. most not all were sick the next few days. flu shots should be offered not mandatory.

That is commendable that they did this. Perhaps you could PM me so I could get your email address so you could send me the SOP for reference.