FDNY’s court-mandated class flaming out

[x635 4,066]

Of course, it's from the NY Post, but still an interesting article anyways.

The first court-ordered class of FDNY trainees — the oldest and most diverse in history — is flaming out.

Halfway through the 18-week Fire Academy course, the dropout rate has hit a sky-high 15 percent and could climb to a third of the 318 who started on July 29, according to insiders.

Read More: FDNY’s court-mandated class flaming out

[210 91]

This is what happens when you hire people who didn't really want the job in the first place. That judge is a joke.

joke for sure. What the "F" happened to this country?

[ex-commish 490]

Good old quota systems working for America....

[lad12derff 283]

Vulcan Society president John Coombs questioned the FDNY’s commitment to helping minorities succeed.

“Some of those instructors are out to break them,” Coombs said. “It’s psychological warfare.”

He said physical demands, such as running a mile and a half in 12 minutes, are too strictly enforced and said probies who show steady improvement are still being weeded out.

“We’ve never had so many injuries at the academy,” he said. “Are they overtraining the candidates?”

And of course they have the answer to the problem. I mean really, did this guy just ask if the are being overtrained???

Edited October 14, 2013 by lad12derff

[velcroMedic1987 330]

Vulcan Society president John Coombs questioned the FDNY’s commitment to helping minorities succeed.

“Some of those instructors are out to break them,” Coombs said. “It’s psychological warfare.”

He said physical demands, such as running a mile and a half in 12 minutes, are too strictly enforced and said probies who show steady improvement are still being weeded out.

“We’ve never had so many injuries at the academy,” he said. “Are they overtraining the candidates?”

And of course they have the answer to the problem. I mean really, did this guy just ask if the are being overtrained???

Of course he did. That's the problem, they're being OVERTRAINED. They're not UNDERQUALIFIED!

[M' Ave 1,466]

The academy loses 10% as a general rule. Take a class of full of candidates who are MUCH older and in poorer physical condition, add a lot of people who couldn't get on because they didn't meet the qualifications 14 years ago and you have trouble. Who's surprised at the drop out rate?

On top of that you have EMS promotees who have a job to go back to if they don't feel the academy is working out for them. I'm not taking a shot at EMS promotees by the way, I work with a bunch and they're good.

2 of 20 open competitive candidates failing is in line with the 10% drop.

Topping off everything is the rhetoric from FIREFIGHTER Coombs. Academy instructors are a hard working lot who, I can assure you, do not single out anyone for anything other than their abilities as candidates. If candidates are failing out of the academy it is because they're not fit for this job and the academy is doing its part to protect people who don't belong from entering a dangerous job and also protecting those of us who work here by insuring that we are surrounded by similarly capable firemen.

If only groups like the Vulcan's would advocate for improved preparation and quality of candidates instead of making excuses for those who can't hack it. When they do this, they undermine and short-change the achievements of those who gave it their all and made it through.

[RFR 12]

Vulcan Society president John Coombs questioned the FDNY’s commitment to helping minorities succeed.

“Some of those instructors are out to break them,” Coombs said. “It’s psychological warfare.”

He said physical demands, such as running a mile and a half in 12 minutes, are too strictly enforced and said probies who show steady improvement are still being weeded out.

“We’ve never had so many injuries at the academy,” he said. “Are they overtraining the candidates?”

And of course they have the answer to the problem. I mean really, did this guy just ask if the are being overtrained???

My 12 year old daughter runs that far in school for fitness testing.

In 8 minutes.

Just throwing that out there.

[SECTMB 612]

Its been a long time since I knew anyone who was trying for a spot with the FDNY. But when I did, they worked their asses off to be ready for probie school. They showed up, in shape, knowing what was to be expected and ready to perform to FDNY standards. They knew they had one chance to make it.

I don't think many of the candidates today, especially the diverse one, share the same mind set and determination as the career firefighters they hope to replace.

[16fire5 693]

Vulcan Society president John Coombs questioned the FDNY’s commitment to helping minorities succeed.

“Some of those instructors are out to break them,” Coombs said. “It’s psychological warfare.”

He said physical demands, such as running a mile and a half in 12 minutes, are too strictly enforced and said probies who show steady improvement are still being weeded out.

“We’ve never had so many injuries at the academy,” he said. “Are they overtraining the candidates?”

And of course they have the answer to the problem. I mean really, did this guy just ask if the are being overtrained???

The crop of instructors teaching at the fire academy right now is as good as it has ever been. Many of us went to proby school trained by instructors who were on forced details freshly out of FLSTP. They definatly did a good job but now you have senior firefighters and officers from great companies with great leadership from the chief of training on down. While we heard plenty of stories how the last class was not going so well the ones who graduated were very competent and well trained.

[lad12derff 283]

Coombs and the Vulcans are all about dumbing down the job. The guys is an a@&hole.

There, I said it. Fire my white Irish a** if you don't like it.

You know it, I know it and believe me Brother the Vulcans know it. Things will never change until individuals take responsibility for the course of their lives and the groups mind their business.

[everybodygoes 331]

I had to do it in 11:30 when I went through. And to the guy with a daughter doing it in 8 minutes, you sure about that? 530 miles is pretty quick!

[velcroMedic1987 330]

I had to do it in 11:30 when I went through. And to the guy with a daughter doing it in 8 minutes, you sure about that? 530 miles is pretty quick!

When you're 8 and weigh 75 pounds soaking wet and have the energy of a gazelle, it's possible.

Not many 8 year old girls in the FDNY though so his point is, well, moot.

[Bnechis 3,961]

When you're 8 and weigh 75 pounds soaking wet and have the energy of a gazelle, it's possible.

Not many 8 year old girls in the FDNY though so his point is, well, moot.

I thought thats what the Judge wanted in the FDNY, 8 year old girls.

[wraftery 1,275]

I've been around a long time, and all these years, I thought the job of instructors there was to ride everybody's butt to push them to the limit. What will these watered down guys do when they catch a real job? Will we have federal judges at the Command Posts to tell them not to cry?

My only advice to the real brothers is this: If you catch a job with these watered-down guys, keep them on front of you as you work your way down the hall to the fire. That way, they can't leave you.

[x635 4,066]

I wouldn't think instructors would want probies to fail, because it reflects on them as well. Unless a point is trying to be proven, which I doubt, but may make sense.

[Chkpoint 131]

You want hard instructors. If you don't have the mental capacity to stand at attention and take the heat then you sure as hell do not belong on FDNY job or any other job. cop, ff or what have you. Police dept a long time ago started letting anyone on the job and it shows. Especially when a good amount should not have "passed" jst. Scary to go on patrol with some of these people especially when an 85 is called

[velcroMedic1987 330]

The academies used to be an additional part of the screening process and assessed the candidate in areas that can't be tested. Of course they pushed you, the same way the military does, so you will improve and raise the limits of your strength, endurance, etc.

Now they want you to simply "pass" because they passed the written exam - or were given a spot even though they failed the exam.

[kinkchaser 352]

Wait, down the road a few years from now and see the requirement to have various years of college for promotion to various FD ranks go out the window.

[M' Ave 1,466]

Wait, down the road a few years from now and see the requirement to have various years of college for promotion to various FD ranks go out the window.

This applies to me since I'm studying for promotion right now.....and the prospect of legal challenge to the promotion process scares me. The only thing we've got on our side is the lack of application of disparate impact. The last legal challenge was lost because the job couldn't link the written exam to actual job performance. With the promotion test, its simply the information you need to know as a boss. This this, the desperate impact clause is nullified.

[Bnechis 3,961]

Many years ago a wise chief (H.A.C.) told my fire academy graduating class the following (I think it was really meant for the parents):

When the Nuclear Physicists at Chernobyl screwed up, they called the Fire Department

When NASA rocket scientists screw up, they called the Fire Department

When the professors at any Ivy League school screw up, they called the Fire Department

When the chemists at Exxon Chemical screw up, they called the Fire Department

Fire Fighters need to be smarter than all of these people, because we are called to fix what they screwed up

PS....When Judges screw up you appeal (not part of the original speech)

[thebreeze 194]

I wouldn't think instructors would want probies to fail, because it reflects on them as well. Unless a point is trying to be proven, which I doubt, but may make sense.

I don't think the instructors are worrying about their reputations while teaching, they are worrying about whether the crop of recruits they were given is qualified enough and fit enough to do the job. How's it going to reflect on them when someone they passed through probie school goes and gets himself killed, or God forbid gets a whole company seriously injured or killed trying to save his ass? All because they passed him through, not truly ready or qualified, so they would look good? I don't think so, that's a dangerous mindset, as an instructor you need to be doing your job right, no matter how it may reflect on you.

[CFI609D 119]

I wouldn't think instructors would want probies to fail, because it reflects on them as well. Unless a point is trying to be proven, which I doubt, but may make sense.

Instructors want combat ready, well trained, and psychologically prepared firefighters. Anything less is creating a liability and endangering the brothers and sisters already on the line. Instructors would rather have a high flunk-out rate than unprepared firefighters.

[x635 4,066]

Instructors would rather have a high flunk-out rate than unprepared firefighters.

I absolutely agree, but where does the blame lie and who ultimately takes ownership? Where and how can this be corrected? In recruiting, shouldn't candidates be chosen because they are a viable and capable trainee and can be molded into a firefighter? Do the instructors have a say who is hired? Instructors have to take some ownership, and take some pride in getting some of those lagging behind up to standards, people are capable of change and improvement. That is their job- no one is perfect and they are there to instruct them to be. Now, with the court case thing, how does it affect the instructors ability to do their job?

Now, this is for conversational purposes only and being a devils advocate, but is there any chance that the instructors and other probies resent how these probies were hired and don't want them to succeed?

I've been at the Academy during this, and there are a lot of instructors working one-one with candidates. I was actually surprised how many. And I wondered how much the one-on-one time is taking away from other training.

Also, the article states that this is 12 years later for some candidates from when they took the test. Don't they have to still pass a current physical/CPAT and medical before they can be cleared for the academy?

[bruce 15]

At the end of the day the residents in any town dont give a flying "F" about who saves them in need. Black, white, spanish, asian, male or female. This is all about politics and a racial card being pulled out. All these higher ups need to really STFU and think about whats best for the everyday citizen. Safety..... not skin color or sex. And the same works for the firefighters out there, just save my ass I dont care who you are. Wait for the Vulcan FAST to be established.

[wraftery 1,275]

No reflection on the instructors just the pathetic politicians who dumb down the standards

Speaking of instructors, Cap, whether it be FDNY, Westchester, or any proby school in the country worth its salt, look at the instructors. They are not assigned to proby school at random. They are there because they have the knowledge, skills, drive, and dedication necessary to mold firefighters out of ordinary people.

After a person graduates from college, chances are that if you ask him a question from HisMajor 101, he won't be able to answer it because he has forgotten the material. Do any of us remember high school algebra?

A firefighter, on the other hand, is required to remember what he has learned for the rest of his life, and to pull out the correct answer in seconds at any time of the day or night, sometimes with people screaming in his ear.

The judges in the FDNY cases assume it's just another job. We know it's not. Maybe the answer is that the judges should put one of their investigators undercover through proby school. No, make that three investigators because one would wash out, the second might tell the judge what it is really like. And the third? He will take the test for firefighter.

[velcroMedic1987 330]

Many years ago a wise chief (H.A.C.) told my fire academy graduating class the following (I think it was really meant for the parents):

When the Nuclear Physicists at Chernobyl screwed up, they called the Fire Department

When NASA rocket scientists screw up, they called the Fire Department

When the professors at any Ivy League school screw up, they called the Fire Department

When the chemists at Exxon Chemical screw up, they called the Fire Department

Fire Fighters need to be smarter than all of these people, because we are called to fix what they screwed up

PS....When Judges screw up you appeal (not part of the original speech)

Great anecdtotes but I've heard the same ones from others with other names substituted. The only ones that really sound true are, "they called their lawyers" or "they called the public affairs department (read spin doctors)".

LOL