Chiefs weigh in on paid vs. volunteer fire depts. following Seaside fire

[x635 4,066]

Would this have made any difference at all at this fire?

Chiefs weigh in on paid vs. volunteer fire depts. following Seaside fire

AVALON -
It was a week ago Thursday that a massive fire ripped through the boardwalk in Seaside Park and Seaside Heights. Now, some are wondering if a Full-time fire department there could've made a difference, rather than the volunteers that were in place. Local chiefs from the two different types of departments give their thoughts on the issue.

Read more: http://www.nbc40.net/story/23479606/chiefs-weigh-in-on-paid-vs-volunteer-fire-depts-following-seaside-fire

[FDNYDCHI 38]

The two Chiefs both make valid clams for there cases, However hindsight is 20/20.

[everybodygoes 331]

Yeah it would have made a huge difference. You would have had someone who didn't win a popularity contest actually in the position and who was trained to an exact level.

[lad12derff 283]

Would this have made any difference at all at this fire?

Read more: http://www.nbc40.net/story/23479606/chiefs-weigh-in-on-paid-vs-volunteer-fire-depts-following-seaside-fire

Things must be pretty quite around EMTBRAVO land to throw that hand granade!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[billfitz 109]

How many of the local firefighters were either in Wildwood or enroute for the convention? Heard on the audio posted some units advising they where on the GSP heading north! Presumably coming back from Wildwood! That would not have been an issue with a paid dept. with minumum staffing requirements.

[SECTMB 612]

And how are the full time, career departments going to be paid for? Citizens in Jersey, as elsewhere, are struggling under the local tax burdens as it is. What would the implementation of a paid department do to the property taxes that are already among the highest in the country?

There is no arguing the benefits of having a paid department, just how to pay for it.

[Bnechis 3,961]

And how are the full time, career departments going to be paid for? Citizens in Jersey, as elsewhere, are struggling under the local tax burdens as it is. What would the implementation of a paid department do to the property taxes that are already among the highest in the country?

There is no arguing the benefits of having a paid department, just how to pay for it.

Valid point, particularly with the loss of tax revinue from the fire (& potential loss in tourism) and the lawsuits that may come from the lost properties against the municipality for failing to replace the salt water damaged electricals under the boardwalk. A clear violation of standards and it appears the cause of the fire.

[ex-commish 490]

There is a benefit to having a quick response, fire spreads rapidly...no argument there. That being said it seems that a more aggressive fire prevention program could of prevented the fire in the first place.

[JetPhoto 626]

From what I have heard about this electrical fire, unless someone called it in when the problem first started happening it would not made much of a difference. People forget you had 30 MPH winds driving that fire so once flame broke out the theory of fire doubling every minute went out the window.

I have heard of plenty of large fires were paid departments were completely in charge and they still lost a lot. I have heard paid departments cancel mutual aid just to end up calling them back 10 minutes later as they are loosing the building.

No volunteers are not perfect but no one is. In this current world especially in our situation where we have a large mix of paid and volunteer departments we need to stop fighting one another and work with each other to get the job done.

Believe it or not volunteers will support paid firefighters MORE when they are not A**holes back at them.

[gamewell45 258]

No volunteers are not perfect but no one is. In this current world especially in our situation where we have a large mix of paid and volunteer departments we need to stop fighting one another and work with each other to get the job done.

Believe it or not volunteers will support paid firefighters MORE when they are not A**holes back at them.

The fact of the matter is both services will always have those who sparr with one another for whatever the reason; let the rest of us focus on getting the job done while the others poke at each other with pike poles.

[firerescuecapt 20]

Being a former volunteer firefighter and a career firefighter for the last 23 years (an officer for the last 15), here is my take on it:

Being career does not make you any better than being volunteer. I know some volunteer departments in my old hometown (Dutchess County NY) where everyone is well certified and competent, and they show up very rapidly when the tones go off. Heck, some of those guys are better trained than the people I currently work with.

It all has to do with the following and applies to both volunteer and career departments:

Leadership -- if the department's leadership does not make sure that there is a means to get their membership trained and encourages it, the department will never be functional.

Membership -- if you can't get enough people to adequately staff the vehicles when called, then the department will not be functional.

Political Support -- if you can't get the support of your commissioners or supervising governmental entity, the department will not be functional.

Fire Prevention -- if the department or municipality doesn't take fire prevention seriously and does not have a good inspection program in place where property owners are held accountable, there will be fire safety issues.

I've seen terrible volunteer departments and I've seen terrible career departments. I've also seen great career departments and volunteer departments that would put most career departments to shame. I really don't think it has anything to do with volunteer vs. career as a whole, but the specific area in NJ.

I've seen many departments here in Florida go from volunteer to career and shut down/disband firehouses completely so they could pay the staff of 2 firefighters on an engine for each of the other stations covering a larger area. Yes, you have 100% assurance a unit will respond immediately, but you have less units and longer response times in those areas where the fire stations were shut down.

This is just my 2 cents.

[FireMedic049 597]

Believe it or not volunteers will support paid firefighters MORE when they are not A**holes back at them.

No doubt and as gamewell45 correctly pointed out, those personalities are on both sides.

However, like many things in life, how you conduct yourself can often have a big influence on how others view and treat you. If you are squared away as a volunteer firefighter and/or fire department, then the vast majority of career firefighters will not have an issue. Now, if you act like a clown, don't know how to do the job or won't do the job, act more like a social club than a fire department, then they're will likely be some animosity - especially if you start playing the "we're all the same" card.

I work in a small career department in a small urban city surrounded by a good dozen volunteer fire departments who's districts directly border the city and few more close by. We pretty much have no choice but to use the volunteers if we need assistance with a fire. One is pretty squared away and we tend to call them first. A few more are ok and we use them when needed. A few more are pretty much posers and we've had issues with them when we've worked with them.

We maintain a pretty good relationship with most of the departments around us, but when you show up at our fire and your engine company gives us the "you want us to go.....in there and do....what?" look, we aren't going to view you favorably and you won't be invited back.

We don't get invited to many out of town calls for whatever reason, but when the neighbors do extend the invitation, we expect to work along side of you and not in place of you. We also expect that your IC (the fire chief) will not be drunk and require our duty chief and another mutual aid chief to assume control of the incident before somebody gets needlessly hurt or killed! When this is the case, we aren't going to view you favorably.

And for the record, I spent 9 years as a volunteer before getting hired 11 years ago.

[Jybehofd 85]

6 minutes is a great response time... sounds like they were in quarters almost. i know for some departments in northern westchester they would love to have 6 minutes from tones drop to first engine on scene time.

[bigrig77 95]

I would think that this issue should be focused on Seaside Heights and the surrounding area. Now as stated some Vols are good, some are bad. Some career are good, some are bad. we all know this. The heart of the issue is should Seaside Heights have a career department? Well yes they should. Now i know that for 9-10 months of the year it is a little slower but for those few summer months that place is bigger then alot of our districts. We have all been down the shore and been to these communities. you know that they are all older buildings and mostly wood frame constrution. When one goes up you have to deal with that sea breeze and the problems it can cause. If this fire had happened on Aug 11th, we would be talking about a completely diffrent story here. they needed guys on scene quickly and they needed alot of them. They know that the clock in their district runs faster because of that sea breeze and the building construction. The one obstical is how to pay for it. Well when you have the amount of money that comes into that place it should not even be a question. Taxes from the buisness should help cover the cost. For all the people who complain that taxes are too high and so on, just look at what that place was like on a summer night and what things cost. The money was there. The community took some short cuts on the boardwalk rebuild and this is what happened. The cash cow of the area is now gone. either they will rebuild or some other place will take its place.

[everybodygoes 331]

Not sure if any of you were watching it live, we were since we were at a promotion party. They had a tower ladder set up with a fog nozzle, wtf good is that?! Water wasn't even making it to the fire.

[FFPCogs 863]

Whether or not a paid department would've made a difference here is irrelevant for a few reasons:

1st off since there wasn't a paid department in place in Seaside Heights at the time of this fire, it's impossible to tell if their presence would've made a difference under the conditions present upon arrival. We can speculate all we want about response times, staffing or tactics, blah blah blah, it doesn't matter. Things were as they were and any number of circumstances could have placed a paid department in a position to be unavailable at that moment.

2nd paid departments do not have the monopoly on tactics, equipment or competency and that's a fact. Now if someone here was actually in Seaside Heights at the time and was there on the initial alarm and they know the Chief or officers and they know their backgrounds and competency...well then yeah to an extent, they can comment factually, otherwise it's nothing more than the speculations of Monday morning quarterbacks. I mean let's get real here, many a building(s) has burnt to the ground in career towns too and upon hindsight we learn that better resource management or deployments or tactics could have or should have been used. That's called learning and that's something we should all be doing regularly. The truth is every department makes mistakes or faces situations that test their limits and when faced with those circumstances does what they believe to be the "right" thing at the time. Should we sit here behind our keyboards and fault them for it, or worse revel in the misfortune of others to justify our point of view? No we shouldn't unless we were there to judge based on facts. What we should do is look at the situation for what it was and what it is and do our best to learn from it, lest we find ourselves in the same situation and get the same results.

Lastly, if taxpayers don't want to fund a paid department well then guess what, there isn't go to be one...end of story

Stay Safe

Edited September 22, 2013 by FFPCogs

[Bottom of Da Hill 76]

Not sure if any of you were watching it live, we were since we were at a promotion party. They had a tower ladder set up with a fog nozzle, wtf good is that?! Water wasn't even making it to the fire.

i seen that but with the wind that day it was all odds against them,it was pissing in the wind realy,

[Remember585 815]

Based on what I have seen over the years vacationing there, you can knock on any firehouse door in that area and see a handful of guys in the station - during the same time this fire occurred.

I agree with others that it wouldn't have mattered because of the wind, construction, and cause of the fire. What stopped that blaze was the enormous trench created by excavators and the fire line created. Could it have been established sooner and closer to the heart of the blaze - who knows. Point is, even if SHFD was out the door with paid or volunteer crews on dispatch, they were behind the eight-ball before the first 911 call even came in.

If anything can be blamed it would be years of salt water, sea air and Sandy.

[firemoose827 324]

Being a former volunteer firefighter and a career firefighter for the last 23 years (an officer for the last 15), here is my take on it:

Being career does not make you any better than being volunteer. I know some volunteer departments in my old hometown (Dutchess County NY) where everyone is well certified and competent, and they show up very rapidly when the tones go off. Heck, some of those guys are better trained than the people I currently work with.

It all has to do with the following and applies to both volunteer and career departments:

Leadership -- if the department's leadership does not make sure that there is a means to get their membership trained and encourages it, the department will never be functional.

Membership -- if you can't get enough people to adequately staff the vehicles when called, then the department will not be functional.

Political Support -- if you can't get the support of your commissioners or supervising governmental entity, the department will not be functional.

Fire Prevention -- if the department or municipality doesn't take fire prevention seriously and does not have a good inspection program in place where property owners are held accountable, there will be fire safety issues.

I've seen terrible volunteer departments and I've seen terrible career departments. I've also seen great career departments and volunteer departments that would put most career departments to shame. I really don't think it has anything to do with volunteer vs. career as a whole, but the specific area in NJ.

I've seen many departments here in Florida go from volunteer to career and shut down/disband firehouses completely so they could pay the staff of 2 firefighters on an engine for each of the other stations covering a larger area. Yes, you have 100% assurance a unit will respond immediately, but you have less units and longer response times in those areas where the fire stations were shut down.

This is just my 2 cents.

Great post cap. This was the best response here hands down and I agree with you. I would love to see the day we all move forward and help each other instead of this crap back and forth all the time and never getting anywhere.

Its sad to admit but our leadership in my area is not the best (dept chiefs and line officers, the county coordinators are all great). Our "voting" for officers is more of a popularity contest then placing the right candidate in the position for reasons of training and experience, and its sad. Thats why a lot of departments fail though, the leadership is not what its supposed to be. I see it often, you ahve a group of well trained volunteers that show up and do what they can, but because the "leader" has no proper experience they end up looking bad. Who gets the blame? The department as a whole when it should be the leader.