Brotherhood in the Fire Service

[firemoose827 324]

I wanted to find out what everyones thoughts were on brotherhood in the fire service and maybe hear some memories of what a good strong brotherhood should be like.

Brotherhood to me is dead. I dont see it anymore and if it is claimed to be alive its fake and only for certain "Cliques" in the department; if you are not a member you dont exist.

The fire service should be a second family, which is why we call each other "brother" or "Sister", but you should MEAN what you say, and ACT as family and not just talk a big game.

When I was young and on Long Island with my father in my first department, I was constantly at the firehouse with him since I was in diapers. Most of the membership had actually changed my diapers or babysat for me or picked me up from school once when my dad was hurt bad in a construction accident where he works and brought to the hospital to my mother who was already there. Then a bunch of them STAYED at the hospital until my dad was stable, running errands for my mom, getting my mom, brother and I food...It was a true family.

When I became a member upstate it was a different world. I was a member for 9 years when my 2 year old son passed away, and only 2 members; thats right, only TWO members came to my sons funeral. None of them came to the hospital when he was there, or to our house to see if we needed anything...it was not a family.

I am in department number 4 now, and the last department I will be in because we just got our first house. But the department has very little "brotherhood" and as a chief I am trying to change that. I am trying to get more department functions, and trying to get the members to call each other more and help each other more. But you can't force something or order something like brotherhood on your members, it needs to be genuine and from the heart and meant for the entire department, right down to that annoying guy who keeps irritating the hell out of you at drills and meetings.

Brotherhood...Does it still exist in your area?

[dave0820 50]

• I've been out of the fire service for 18 years now and I know things have changed a lot, but I am from the generation of firefighter that considered each other brothers and now sisters too. When I see someone I don't know wearing a FD shirt, I still will call him brother. When I see an officer even those that are good friends or even relatives I always address them the first time we speak by their rank. I think it's a sign of respect. I remember when just being a member of a fire department brought you a certain amount of respect. I do agree that socializing with members of your department helps to bring members together and make it more of a brotherhood. I wish all my brothers and sisters much success and hope everyone stays safe.

[FirNaTine 370]

I think Firemoose827 it's because of the World we now live in where like many have said you can't offend anyone anymore and have to constantly be "politically correct" for fear of being sued and labeled a racist. Tradition in the F/S is practically dead which is sad. Like one member posted in the other forum also, everyone now receives a trophy and as a result can not accept failure and to be told their no good at something and if they are will head right to the powers to be to complain. This all trickles down to the moral on the job where nobody wants to participate in anything anymore. Another big reason why I see the Brotherhood disappearing is because of the quality of individuals Depts. are hiring. Depts. now seem to be more concerned with "Quantity" then "Quality" for fear again of being labeled racist/biased towards certain individuals and groups and have lowered their "STANDARDS" to attract these individuals. As a result those members who are 100% dedicated towards their Profession get discouraged having to work with these incompetent individuals who for the most part are just there for a paycheck and don't want to associate with them either on or off the Job, especially when these individuals don't get reprimanded for their unacceptable actions/mistakes on and off the Job but almost seem to be rewarded and left alone. After awhile it gets discouraging to those who really do care and try and do the" right" thing and as a result everyone is out for themselves and the "Brotherhood" is now in the toilet. JMO

[antiquefirelt 994]

I fear Brotherhood has lost out to technology. The ability to have one's personal life literally at ones fingertips 24/7/365 ensures that is the priority 24/7/365. The camaraderie , Brotherhood and sense of family I found as a proby is lost since gone, taken one small step at a time, though in pretty short order.

When I started at my career position we had two computers used for entering basic NFIRs reports and typing official letters. We arrived at work at least a half an hour before the shift to ensure the off going guys didn't get stuck on a BS run that would mess up their plans. We all gathered at the dayroom table to discuss any pertinent FD issues that arose in the past 48 hours, and then typically drifted to anything of interest we'd done, heard or seen in the same time period. We knew each other on a personal level. We were allowed one phone call home in the evening not to exceed 10 minutes (we had but 1 business line). You'd call home say good night and unless it was an emergency, hope that you didn't get a call from outside. We all gathered at every "scheduled" break and ate meals together. Strangely 15-18 years ago we rarely shared a meal as one, we merely ate our own things at the same table at the same time. That changed almost as a reaction to the loss of time together a few ears after I started. Nonetheless we all, had nothing better to do than keep each other entertained. We constantly played practical jokes on each other, frequently gather to smoke on the bay floor (designated area at that time, when we not as health conscious). We'd practically beg our Chief to regale us with stories of jobs and his war experiences (best story teller ever!). We'd watch the same TV at night and for the morning news. We were tight. Every shift was tight and due to stricter staffing rules we had to swap more often so we had reason to be tight with other guys too. When we came to work, we left everything else at home, very little from home affected us unless it was a personal issue that had an affect on a guys' focus (impending divorce, financial crisis, death in the family) the day to day stuff had to wait until the next day, period.

Of the past 15 years we first started to get better computers, which at first only allowed games, so we started to lose a few people to video games once in a while, but for the most part it was unnoticeable. Then came the internet, and that's when we started to lose guys for hours, sometimes whole tours we'd only share time on calls or community work. Maybe here's where we started to do the communal evening meal that at least brought all shift members to the same table for an hour or so. Then we seemed to find the end of the internet and people grew bored with it. It became a nice tool, but less exciting unless looking for something specific.

Somewhere along the way, cellphones became smaller and mainstream and suddenly guys were hiding on the floor at night arguing with the wife or other people. Our home lives came to the station. Suddenly, all the day to day issues, were confronting guys while they were at work. We struggled to keep up with the changing technology with rules that tried to at least ensure actual work was unaffected, but alas, that didn't work, changes were far too rapid. Requests for emergency time off for this and that increased, personnel were often scattered to the far ends of the building quietly dealing with their home/life issues instead of watching TV, sharing stories or otherwise congregating together.

And today all the technologies collide to nearly obliterate anyone's sense that they can come to work to get away from everything else. Facebook has inserted people back into to each other lives, but on a far less personal level. People know things about each other but given they can read this and get the info indirectly they have ample opportunity to express their true views without the person being able to explain or defend themselves. Now we see far more snickering and back stabbing amongst "brothers". Many Facebook users see the guys/girls spouses opinions and actions and suddenly have their opinion on that, something that used to be somewhat off limits. Smartphones ensure all of this takes place wherever/whenever the member is. Our crews still meet at the dayroom table in the morning and share information, as soon as FD interests are gone, it generally devolves to "did you see what, so and so posted?" or "if I was married to that .....I'd ....". Most mornings there's 8-12 people sitting around, but only 2 or 3 are talking and the rest have their faces buried in the smartphones. Firefighters are far less likely to come in early for another, instead coming in at literally the last minute, still chatting away to whomever was more important at 0658 in the morning.

We still eat the evening meal together but typically it's pretty quiet as one or two people text their way through dinner. We had to make a rule that talking on personal phones was done outside the dayroom otherwise you could watch TV or remotely converse. Yep, a rule that addresses common courtesy. Still in the evening those who have gravitated back to the dayroom to watch TV, now do so with an Ipad on their lap and constantly are convinced the rest of us need to see whatever stupid thing was sent to them or posted on a Facebook page, totally oblivious that others might actually not care.

Sorry, Moose, this wasn't a positive story of Brotherhood. Maybe I'm "old" or just don't find myself interesting enough to Tweet or be on Facebook, and while I think we the Brothers and Sisters allowed this to happen, it's technology that killed Brotherhood. While this is what I see from the career side, I imagine that on the volunteer/call side, the technology has become a time drain that hurts volunteerism, as people spend far more time using the web media to stay up on all things that used to be none of their business. The hardest part is that I now realize how much I miss the more personal interaction with those I work with and the job is becoming much more of a job. I used to want to go to work, now I'm ambivalent, I'd likely take far more time off if other duties wouldn't just pile up on my desk. I find myself looking for projects to reinvigorate my attitude, and this is a common feeling among many of members with 10-12 year or more on the job.

Edited August 28, 2013 by antiquefirelt

[grumpyff 1,159]

Personally to me it is dead. Stabbed in the back to the point I left, and haven't looked back

[firemoose827 324]

Antiquefirelt, I do think you hit the nail dead center on the head.

Respect for senior firefighters and officers has been destroyed by self-centered arrogant cocky young pups fresh out of firefighter 1 training who think they know it all too. Technology has taken away that close knit family feeling, and then the younger age coming in today are all "know-it-alls" because their daddy was a chief or their whole family was in the department...wrong. They come in instantly barking orders and demanding respect...wrong.

When I first joined in Long Island, I kept quiet, listened when a senior firefighter or officer spoke, volunteered for every assignment even if it was cleaning toilets, we had to stand at attention whenever the chief entered the meeting room during meetings or drills, and I never let a senior firefighter pack hose after calls even if I were exhausted. I asked them questions and tried to learn something new every time, even if I was already comfortable with what we were drilling on. I never acted cocky, or arrogant, or touted my own horn. After time, I saw that I EARNED the respect they finaly showed me when I was around the station, and I was able to joke around more. It took time. Today; everyone expects instant over-night success and respect just because they joined. I fully blame that on what was already mentioned a few times; todays kids are getting awards for everything, even just for participating, and they never fail and do not learn that they have to work hard to succeed. They are now turning 18 and joining the fire service expecting to be rewarded instantly for everything, and they dont know how to earn anything. Its sad.

I guess old timers like you and I are a thing of the past...

Brotherhood is dead, I dont know when it was on life support or how it ever was allowed to slip away like it did, but people like me, and you (antiquefirelt, Firnatine, and others) will still try to pass on the traditions and share the brotherhood that we have still in our hearts. Its up to the others to accept it and practice it though and thats what bothers me...

[antiquefirelt 994]

I will say that Brotherhood in the overall larger sense seems to be a little more intact. In this I mean that everyone shows outside firefighters the utmost respect, goes out of their way to show them things, advise them on where to eat or stay and otherwise recognize that we're all members of something different than the normal job. Is this truly Brotherhood or just a small piece therein? I say the latter. When you start to network with other fire service personnel from all over you can see that there is a little more to this than just having the same job in a different town. There are still many of us to call all other firefighters brother or sister and would be happy to invite them in to share a meal or go have a beer and share thoughts, ideas and stories about the job.

In a positive manner as you first asked, last week it was relayed to me that on another shift a Brother from away stopped in and was in the area for a funeral of a close family member, they were hosting a large contingent of family for the weekend and was looking for a place to get a horseshoe pit set up. One of our guys quickly gave up a set he had at home, sending them to his garage to retrieve what was need for as long as it was needed. Not a big deal, but at least a glimmer that someone had the idea to just help a Brother out, instead of sending to Walmart by the quickest route.

As I typed these two posts I noticed that I'd twice mis-typed Brotherhood as botherhood, maybe it was a sign of my dismay. I won't give up, and I hope many others won't either, we just have to find away to show the value in making the fire service more than just a job.

Edited August 28, 2013 by antiquefirelt

[FirNaTine 370]

I think this forum should have been titled "Botherhood" then "Brotherhood" it's more appropriate! LMAO! If anybody gets a chance Google Comedian Adam Corollas take on the youth of today it's exactly what we're talking about! He hits the nail right on the head! It's an interview dealing with the Occupy Wall Streeters. He puts it perfectly!

[dave0820 50]

I'm not sure the Brotherhood is dead all over, but I do see that it is on the decline. I have lived in a few different states and been involved in the fire service in those areas. I'm not involved in the fire service here in FL, but there is a station 1 mile from my house and I often see the duty crew in the local supper market shopping together and from what I see, it sure looks like these guys are eating together and they all seem to be happy and friendly with each other. Again, I'm not there in the station, but from the outside looking in, I get a sense of brotherhood. Maybe it's wishful thinking, but I hope the brotherhood isn't dead and it can be revived.

[ex-commish 490]

I see it on the decline. Years ago brotherhood meant something. Its what drew me to join my local fire department. People sharing a bond. If you screwed up the powers to be slapped you on the wrist. If you got into an argument once it was over it was over. Your opinion was accepted. Joking around, pranks, and ballbreaking was what kept the brotherhood going. What I have seen is people who wear more than one hat or hold more than one leadership positions ( the ones who want to run everything) kill moral in a department and are the ones destroying the brotherhood. As I stated in another subject you have to be careful now especially with harassment policies that you don't offend someone to a point where they go crying to their lawyer or the police and file charges.( I have personally seen this happen) What you may deem a simple remark or act could land you in a courtroom.

As I stated before in another forum I see harassment policies will be the demise of brotherhood because it is now an avenue for thinskinned people to seek revenge on what could be a harmless joke or prank or statement and I am not advocating deliberate harassment in any way but in my opinion it is destroying the brotherhood.

[JackEMT 77]

It is "dead" or has it changed? Look at the nuclear family, how many families sit down to dinner together, without the television on, without electronic devices?

I am not convinced it's the Brotherhood that is "dead" but a reflection on how society in general is now. Sad, but I think it is true for general society and not just the Brotherhood. I think this extends to many other environments, even us in corporate America.

[Westchester 49]

It's a dame shame! Brotherhood is alive with certain long time members that have thick skin or ones you went to school with. Then came certain members that can't take a joke or go running to superiors to file a complaint. Those new breed of members are destroying the brotherhood. It's like walking on eggs. Riding a truck, going to a meeting, or a social event is very difficult. It has come to a point you can't trust anyone and say nothing about knowbody

[everybodygoes 331]

First off I am truly sorry about your son. Brotherhood is in many ways not dead, but it also depends on where you work. My method of actions precludes me in many ways of social invites, or of being a part of the social hierarchy other than people being afraid of running across me, especially where I volunteer. I don't ever claim to know everything, but ill be damned if some idiot who thinks cause he is a volunteer firefighter knows more than 99% of the guys who do it day in and day out is going to teach someone the WRONG way to do things. At work its always take care of what you need to, we will work it out. It is a completely different environment. At home, at the local FD its all about who is most liked, or who licks the Chief's balls in many cases. But when I think about who actually gives a rats behind it is usually always the same core group of guys. No one realizes how much even a little phone call means to a sick or injured member, until it is them in the hospital with not a soul around. I am usually the stranger at the hospital for many of our terminally ill Brother's in the FDNY. I am there with either a cash donation or an offer to help anyway I can. I know what brotherhood is, and like one of the guys who I worked with when I got on said, 'kid, you never want to know how good this job really is.' Pete the Greek said that, if you know who he is.

Trying to teach new guys this is not that hard. But what needs to be explained is the fact that no matter what kind of call you go on, the threat for death or injury is there. We all know it at work, we have plaques and everyone knows someone who was killed. Here locally it is not as prevalent luckily, so the gravity of the work usually doesn't hit home. This is part of the reason Police officers always have a mutual respect for one another, because no matter how long you have been on the job, you know that safety is paramount, and relying on one another is critical to survival.

Perhaps one way you could teach everyone is through a basic call audit. Bring up the last few recent alarms, and point out every way someone could be hurt or killed. Instilling the fact that you can be the difference between life and death for each other is paramount to these kind of exercises.

[SECTMB 612]

I think a lot has to do with the make up your individual company and the length of service of those members. I know that in my particular case my involvement is traditional. My grandfather and father were members of Hope Hose and then my father became of member of Hilltop when we lived in Pocantico. From an early age there was exposure to the firehouse. When we moved to Briarcliff my father did not join up but when I came of age I joined, followed by two brothers and eventually three nephews and along the way there were a couple of cousins and a niece for a time. Talk about brotherhood and sisterhood. My Scarborough company had a history of multiple family members and it still does. There are numerous father/son/daughter/wife active members. Some younger persons who join are surprised to learn that while they are new to us, we may have known their parents or other family members for years.

While we are not immune to disagreement, we have always been a tight knit group. The little kids we tolerated so many years ago are now the officers and even though they may roll their eyes a little, the younger members respect the older guys and that respect is returned by working together, not criticizing the younger members and mentoring them with our knowledge and experience.

We have been through the good times, bad times, births, deaths, marriages and divorces with each other whether your last name was the same or not. So I think the brother/sisterhood is still out there, but how it shows itself is a direct reflection of yourself, how you were raised and the 'company' you keep.

[thebreeze 194]

You can't just lump every new guy into a category of a few people with really poor attitudes. Especially because if you do, you are just giving up on them. Its not hard to make a guy realize whats expected of him and whats viewed as unacceptable or sub par behavior without violating harassment rules. All you need is to know how to phrase things without flat out telling someone they are an idiot. I am not saying that every young guy is a home run, but I am saying that it's up to everyone to help shape them and show them whats expected, and maybe even sometimes to show them that this might not be for them. Brotherhood starts in the firehouse, with time spent together working. By this simple fact alone it makes it harder to build in a volunteer company because not as much time is spent together. Some departments have a good group of guys that hang out together at the firehouse as well as do things together outside of the house. This time spent together is critical in volunteer organizations if you expect there to be any type of brotherhood, otherwise you just see each other in passing at calls, and a couple times a month at a drill or meeting. That's simply not enough to build a good strong bond with your fellow members and create that brotherhood you are looking for. I know some people are very critical of some of the functions that volunteer organizations hold. I myself can't stand parades and have never shied away from sharing that opinion, fundraising, well there should be some more transparency to that, but as far as picnics, company dances, maybe a weekly card game, or Sunday coffee and breakfast together, these are important functions. These are where the guys can sit around and talk, build friendships, camaraderie, and sow the seeds of the brotherhood. As far as paid companies, there are some that have a strong bond, and there are some that just come in to collect their check. The good companies you see all spend a lot of time together, at work as well as when off duty. In the firehouse, it all starts in the kitchen, its the communal place that everyone comes to sit, talk, share meals, and BS about whats going on. Cooking, and sitting and sharing a meal together is extremely important, it provides a little structure and sets a time for when everyone will be together. Personally, and I have seen this done both ways, but I don't believe the TV has a place in the kitchen. It sucks the life out of the conversation and gives guys an excuse to come in and shut themselves off. Conversation with your brothers should be the main focus of the meal, especially when someone tried something new and the food sucks. It shouldn't end when you're done eating either, you don't just get up and walk out where you're done, you sit and talk, learn, laugh, and build strong bonds with your brothers. Companies like this are some of the best you ever see work together at a fire. Brotherhood is not dead, its alive and well and thriving in many places. Hopefully we can all learn from those of us who are still enjoying the greatness of it, but certainly no one should give up on it.

[Westchester 49]

I agree with all your writing, but the main problem is always " one bad apple spoils the bunch". I've been in the Emergency Services before electricity and there's nothing better than sitting around the firehouse talking of war stories of the past, sports, town poltics, etc. I remember loving going to the firehouse on standby during snow stormshanging out, watching t.v and laughing until your gut burst. But that was then. Now ! See nothing, say nothing, joke about nothing, theres always a rat in the department, waiting for the right sentence or word to say, so he can run home and tell mommy, chiefs, and town members that the Emergency Service they volunteer for is bad bad bad. To all those cry babys that run away and rat on brothers and sisters instead of talking about it or confronting the matter in a civilized manner. Well you can_ __ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ . Get the point!

[markmets415 524]

Great topic Brian, I often heard the talk of the 'Good Old Days" when I was at the firehouse as a pup with my dad, watching, listening and seeing how the guys went about carrying out serving their community and always having each others backs no matter the situation. I joined my department in 1982, although I was there long before that with my dad and really enjoyed "hanging out" at the station and listening to the stories of the Big ones that occured in town and neighboring towns, the jokes played on one another, how so and so got into trouble with the Chief, the key was I was listening, not opening my mouth as a 18 year old kid that just joined even though my dad was one of the Chiefs. I was taught by watching and learning to how to respect the fire service by a band of brothers that seemed to do everything together, the firehouse was the hub of the community and a gathering place. Well sadly it surely is not that way, one night not long ago, a few of us that have been around for awhile were now the ones telling stories that we had gained during our service time and I made a comment about the "good old days" and much to my dismay the President at the time made a remark that appalled me to no end, this is what came out of the mouth, "Forget those days, they are long gone", summed it up for me right there. Am I as active as I once was, NO!, Do I have the drive I once had, NO!, can I do what I could do when I was 18 or 19, NO! I've put in 32 years into the emergency services both as a volunteer and as a career and still have it in my blood and desire to make my department the best department it can be but my words often go unheard, often ignored to the younger members that couldn't tell you who the first fire Chief was, hell they couldn't tell you who the Chief was in 2000, or even know that someone like my dad who still visits the fire station every day was even a Fire Chief, or that he is nearing 60 years as a member, unless they read it on one of the plaques at the station. I will say this, if we forget how we got here then we might as well close the doors, forgetting the past or not even wanting to know it is a travesty

Edited August 29, 2013 by markmets415

[FFPCogs 863]

Good topic.

For many of us that have been around awhile it does seem as though Brotherhood in the fire service is dying, because by and large it is. There are a number of specific reasons why this is so, but all share one thing in common, a change in society to one which is far more self serving and filled with a sense of entitlement. Almost every TV show, pop song, movie or other pop culture medium instills the virtue of me me me instead of us us us. It's hard to reach through to someone that has been brought up on a steady diet of: success is measured in the number of thing I have and I must do whatever it takes to get them because I'm entitled to them. There's no room left for us, in fact there is no us in that equation, because it's all about me and what I deserve. And the sad fact is we have all contributed to this change to a greater or lesser degree, not out of malice or greed, but simply because we too succumbed to that constant barrage. To me the slow loss of Brotherhood is ultimately our own fault because we did nothing to stop it. Remember new members only know what they come into when it comes to the culture, camaraderie and tradition of our departments. They can only erode the bonds of Brotherhood within our organizations if we allow that erosion to take place or worse cause it ourselves by our actions (or inaction), even if unintentional.

Now at the risk of offending I feel I must touch on an 800 pound gorilla in the room. In my experience if there is one area in which Brotherhood has taken it's greatest hit overall, it is in the relationship between career and volunteer. Years ago many career firefighters were active and in fact vital members of volunteer departments where they lived and worked. In my City it was a common sight to see a career member working alongside a volunteer, both in the VFD gear since both were members. For reasons stemming from legal constraints and politics to stubbornness and an inability to adapt to change this has waned over the years and now much of our service is plagued by infighting and outright animosity. We ourselves have driven a wedge into the very heart of the notion of Brotherhood because we ourselves are at odds. New members come into this environment and are told the grand tales of Brotherhood among all FFs, only to learn that the words and the reality don't quite mesh many times. And this disparity then undermines the whole principle. It becomes a case of actions speaking louder than words.

In the end Brotherhood will only die if we allow it to. How we act and react, how we conduct ourselves on scene and off and how well we practice what we preach will ultimately decide the future of our Brotherhood...the choice and the future are ours to make.

Stay Safe

Edited August 29, 2013 by FFPCogs

[firemoose827 324]

Good topic.

For many of is that have been around awhile it does seem as though Brotherhood in the fire service is dying, because by and large it is. There are a number of specific reasons why this is so, but all share one thing in common, a change in society to one which is far more self serving and filled with a sense of entitlement. Almost every TV show, pop song, movie or other pop culture medium instills the virtue of me me me instead of us us us. It's hard to reach through to someone that has been brought up on a steady diet of: success is measured in the number of thing I have and I must do whatever it takes to get them because I'm entitled to them. There's no room left for us, in fact there is no us in that equation, because it's all about me and what I deserve. And the sad fact is we have all contributed to this change to a greater or lesser degree, not out of malice or greed, but simply because we too succumbed to that constant barrage. To me the slow loss of Brotherhood is ultimately our own fault because we did nothing to stop it. Remember new members only know what they come into when it comes to the culture, camaraderie and tradition of our departments. They can only erode the bonds of Brotherhood within our organizations if we allow that erosion to take place or worse cause it ourselves by our actions (or inaction), even if unintentional.

Now at the risk of offending I feel I must touch on an 800 pound gorilla in the room. In my experience if there is one area in which Brotherhood has taken it's greatest hit overall, it is in the relationship between career and volunteer. Years ago many career firefighters were active and in fact vital members of volunteer departments where they lived and worked. In my City it was a common sight to see a career member working alongside a volunteer, both in the VFD gear since both were members. For reasons stemming from legal constraints and politics to stubbornness and an inability to adapt to change this has waned over the years and now much of our service is plagued by infighting and outright animosity. We ourselves have driven a wedge into the very heart of the notion of Brotherhood because we ourselves are at odds. New members come into this environment and are told the grand tales of Brotherhood among all FFs, only to learn that the words and the reality don't quite mesh many times. And this disparity then undermines the whole principle. It becomes a case of actions speaking louder than words.

In the end Brotherhood will only die if we allow it to. How we act and react, how we conduct ourselves on scene and off and how well we practice what we preach will ultimately decide the future of our Brotherhood...the choice and the future are ours to make.

Stay Safe

You are correct, I knew 3 guys when I was in Long Island that worked for FDNY, and they were volunteers for my past department there, one was a lieutenant serving under my father as Captain in the Engine Co.. All three guys were upstanding gentlemen and always offered the younger guys like me any and all advice that we would listen to, and I listened. Every drill we had I followed them and learned from them and they never stopped teaching and never had a bad attitude towards the volunteers. They were true brothers that didnt look at "volunteers" or "career", they only saw "firefighter" and showed tremendous brotherhood and support.

Then I moved upstate...The first big fire I went to was two towns away from us, BIG main street fire involving a row of buildings. The one career department in that county was on scene with their aerial ladder and 4 guys, they were operating all night and in the morning had about 4000 feet of 5" to pick up. I saw them starting to pick up and I went over and started to help. The one guy looked up and saw who I was and told me to "F Off you jolly volly probie, we can handle our own sh*#!!!" I was amazed. I looked at him and said "Im just trying to help pick up all this 5" hose" and he got even angrier and said they didnt need any volunteer help, to go find a bar and get my irish on.

I walked away. Their chief was in the truck turning something off and he jumped down and told me not to take it personal, they were all crabby they had to work OT. I said that I was there for 18 hours myself and not getting paid to do it, yet I still offered to help pick up the enormous amount of LDH they had out. The chief appreciated it, and thanked me, I even saw the chief at the firehouse later that morning and he had breakfast with me and the guys from my department and he apologized again. Some have brotherhood, some do not. The chief had it, his own crew did not.

I have had other experiences with both fellow volunteer and other career "brothers", some good some horrible, but I always continue to show as much brotherhood as I can. If I see an IAFF tee-shirt I will walk over and shake hands with them and introduce myself. If I see one of the buffs with a Volunteer tee-shirt, hat, buttons, patches, rings, watches, jackets and the huge blue bar light hanging over either side of his truck...I pretend like I dont know them...

Cogs, does the brotherhood you have with other soldiers differ from that of the fire service or is it the same? I would imagine it is even stronger than ours. I know that is still strong and not in danger, what are you guys doing to keep it strong (Other than keeping each other alive in firefights and mine fields)?

Stay safe too.

[FFPCogs 863]

Brian,

I'm not in the military and the FFs I serve with in the sandbox are all civilians as well.

To all

Although some may take it otherwise, my opinion on the career/volunteer breakdown in Brotherhood is nothing more than an observation based on my experiences. As I see it that breakdown is just another case of progress destroying tradition.

Stay Safe

[dave0820 50]

You are correct, I knew 3 guys when I was in Long Island that worked for FDNY, and they were volunteers for my past department there, one was a lieutenant serving under my father as Captain in the Engine Co.. All three guys were upstanding gentlemen and always offered the younger guys like me any and all advice that we would listen to, and I listened. Every drill we had I followed them and learned from them and they never stopped teaching and never had a bad attitude towards the volunteers. They were true brothers that didnt look at "volunteers" or "career", they only saw "firefighter" and showed tremendous brotherhood and support.

Then I moved upstate...The first big fire I went to was two towns away from us, BIG main street fire involving a row of buildings. The one career department in that county was on scene with their aerial ladder and 4 guys, they were operating all night and in the morning had about 4000 feet of 5" to pick up. I saw them starting to pick up and I went over and started to help. The one guy looked up and saw who I was and told me to "F Off you jolly volly probie, we can handle our own sh*#!!!" I was amazed. I looked at him and said "Im just trying to help pick up all this 5" hose" and he got even angrier and said they didnt need any volunteer help, to go find a bar and get my irish on.

I walked away. Their chief was in the truck turning something off and he jumped down and told me not to take it personal, they were all crabby they had to work OT. I said that I was there for 18 hours myself and not getting paid to do it, yet I still offered to help pick up the enormous amount of LDH they had out. The chief appreciated it, and thanked me, I even saw the chief at the firehouse later that morning and he had breakfast with me and the guys from my department and he apologized again. Some have brotherhood, some do not. The chief had it, his own crew did not.

I have had other experiences with both fellow volunteer and other career "brothers", some good some horrible, but I always continue to show as much brotherhood as I can. If I see an IAFF tee-shirt I will walk over and shake hands with them and introduce myself. If I see one of the buffs with a Volunteer tee-shirt, hat, buttons, patches, rings, watches, jackets and the huge blue bar light hanging over either side of his truck...I pretend like I dont know them...

Cogs, does the brotherhood you have with other soldiers differ from that of the fire service or is it the same? I would imagine it is even stronger than ours. I know that is still strong and not in danger, what are you guys doing to keep it strong (Other than keeping each other alive in firefights and mine fields)?

Stay safe too.

I have been in situations like that also. When I was a volunteer officer in a Westchester Dept. That has a paid FF/ driver for each rig and volunteer fire fighter, at a fire I was having trouble with my portable and went to use the Mic. on the pump panel to communicate and I almost lost my hand. I was told "that Mic is for the paid guys only" Later back at the firehouse the paid guy and I had a conversation, I asked him if he dropped and was unconscious, could I then use the Mic to call for help, he told me to use a portable or just let him die. I'm sure he really wouldn't want to die, but he was serious about that UNION microphone.

Then on the other side, after leaving NY I worked for a FD in NH that had 14 paid union guys and 24 P/T paid on call non union FFs. We all shared the same equipment. The first due attack pumper was just that, any certified Operator could and would drive it. There were plenty of times that I drove and operated the pump with a career guy ridding in the offices seat. We all worked together, we trained together and we socialized together. That was a true brother hood. Maybe I'm wrong, but the wedge between union firefighter and nonunion FFs seems to be strongest in southern NY.

[gamewell45 258]

I have been in situations like that also. When I was a volunteer officer in a Westchester Dept. That has a paid FF/ driver for each rig and volunteer fire fighter, at a fire I was having trouble with my portable and went to use the Mic. on the pump panel to communicate and I almost lost my hand. I was told "that Mic is for the paid guys only" Later back at the firehouse the paid guy and I had a conversation, I asked him if he dropped and was unconscious, could I then use the Mic to call for help, he told me to use a portable or just let him die. I'm sure he really wouldn't want to die, but he was serious about that UNION microphone.

Then on the other side, after leaving NY I worked for a FD in NH that had 14 paid union guys and 24 P/T paid on call non union FFs. We all shared the same equipment. The first due attack pumper was just that, any certified Operator could and would drive it. There were plenty of times that I drove and operated the pump with a career guy ridding in the offices seat. We all worked together, we trained together and we socialized together. That was a true brother hood. Maybe I'm wrong, but the wedge between union firefighter and nonunion FFs seems to be strongest in southern NY.

I read your comments on the "union" microphone with interest; I came to the conclusion the the career Brother may have been a bit heavy-handed on how he dealt with it; true, the handling of the microphone may have been within the jurisdiction of the collective bargaining agreement, but in non-threatening situation perhaps it could have been handled in a more diplomatic fashion; that being said every department, whether volunteer, paid, union or non-union has its bad apples or overzealous members. That's just the way things are in this world, but the important thing to remember is not to let the actions of a few tarnish the overall image of the department or the service. Attitudes will always vary in certain parts of the state or country as the case may be: brushing aside the intentional or unintentional slights, comments and digs from those who have poor people skills will make you a better person, earn more respect and prove that we all can work together regardless of employment status .

Encourage Brotherhood by example, much as you would lead by example; remember, you'll always attract more flies with honey then vinegar!

Just my 2 cents.

[Westchester 49]

In my opinion, as I read all the messages about this topic, I believe the problem of loss brotherhood/sisterhood in Emergency Services starts at the top. Example some volunteer depts have 2 year terms for chiefs and lieuts. If the chief for two years is a lifelong resident, easy going and fun to be around you'll respect him/her. Two years later a new Chief comes in and the only thing he/she cares about is getting a new Engine. The chief forms committees and that is all that Chief cares about, two more years go by and this Chief cares only about training and response to headquarters for calls, then 2 more years go by and you get a chief that doesn't give a crap and just wants to go to parades get drunk and do his/her time. As Volunteers we follow the leadership and respect of those above us. If your Chief is a hard ass then no one well be happy, unless your a kissass. Chiefs and Lieut's have to remember it's a volunteer fire department. It's important work, but the chiefs have to loosen up a little to get morale back in departments. And there's nothing worse than a two face chief, that talks out of both ends!

[dave0820 50]

In my opinion, as I read all the messages about this topic, I believe the problem of loss brotherhood/sisterhood in Emergency Services starts at the top. Example some volunteer depts have 2 year terms for chiefs and lieuts. If the chief for two years is a lifelong resident, easy going and fun to be around you'll respect him/her. Two years later a new Chief comes in and the only thing he/she cares about is getting a new Engine. The chief forms committees and that is all that Chief cares about, two more years go by and this Chief cares only about training and response to headquarters for calls, then 2 more years go by and you get a chief that doesn't give a crap and just wants to go to parades get drunk and do his/her time. As Volunteers we follow the leadership and respect of those above us. If your Chief is a hard a** then no one well be happy, unless your a kissass. Chiefs and Lieut's have to remember it's a volunteer fire department. It's important work, but the chiefs have to loosen up a little to get morale back in departments. And there's nothing worse than a two face chief, that talks out of both ends!

I

I agree with you that term limits for chiefs could be a big cause for some of the problems volunteer departments have. In a different thread I made a suggestion that maybe in all towns and villages the fire chief should be a full time paid position. This would put someone in charge at a town level to help get the things the departments need, especially money for training. If the fire chief was just a fire chief, and not someone who owns a business in town or has some other full time job, he might be able to do more. I got a lot of flack for that suggestion. My only reason for putting in my two cents on here is to help spark conversations that somehow might change things or make things better and safer, because no matter how long I have been out of the fire service I always hurt when we lose a brother or sister.

[roofsopen19 34]

This is my opinion and how I look at it. I'm sorry if I offend anyone.

Unfortunately unless you call a bunch of two faced and/or backstabbing babies and/or useless social clubbers a brother, the brotherhood is stronger then ever. In my opinion, to be considered a "brother" in the Fire Department, you would actually have to be a firefighter, one who has fought a fire or has been of use at a fire. A "good firefighter" who can tell you good story about a job at the kitchen table. Don't get me wrong, I am extremely proud of where I come from. I believe we run one of the most professional organizations around. BUT, I do come from 20/80 firehouse. 20% of us put our whole life into it and 80% are here for the food, funny drinks, and parades. I often find myself listening to real estate competition and stay at home dad stories. It is very rare I use the term brother with anyone. Not even a "thanks, brother". Lack of fires keep social clubbers around and do not interest gung-ho guys to stay active or join, the guys I would probably end up calling a brother.

When I think of "brotherhood" I think firemen who cook together, clean together, train together, go on runs together, and come home together. Even outside the firehouse these men are together.

No offence but I don't put an ounce of trust into the 12%'er just getting by who comes around for his 3 free meals a month and 3 nights out on the town with the boys a year. How does anyone of this description make up a "brotherhood"? Or at least a true "Fire service brotherhood"?

Again, my opinion. What brotherhood?

[FFPCogs 863]

Brotherhood can take on a number of different aspects. Yes without doubt firefighters talking and doing firefighting activities is surely a big part of it, but how about a few others like:

When a member or spouse/ family member of a member is sick long term or gets deployed their fellow members help them out with things like,

*shopping

*yard work

*house cleaning

*babysitting or...

*How about actually taking 15 minutes out of our busy schedules to visit the guy/gal in the hospital

*or if need be a little financial support for the members family to help get them through and...

maybe even something as simple as an ear if it's needed

Here's a good one too - Treating the members you don't like as well as the ones you do...a little respect goes a long way

I think you get the idea

[Bnechis 3,961]

When I was a volunteer officer in a Westchester Dept. That has a paid FF/ driver for each rig and volunteer fire fighter, at a fire I was having trouble with my portable and went to use the Mic. on the pump panel to communicate and I almost lost my hand. I was told "that Mic is for the paid guys only" Later back at the firehouse the paid guy and I had a conversation, I asked him if he dropped and was unconscious, could I then use the Mic to call for help, he told me to use a portable or just let him die. I'm sure he really wouldn't want to die, but he was serious about that UNION microphone.

While I am not making excuses for his actions, I do know that in the 80's & 90's in more than 1 Westchester combo dept. that only staffed "paid drivers" if the "paid man" ever left the pump panel, he got put on dept charges. In otherwords, if he arrived at a fire and the volunteers had yet to arrive and he stretched the line past the front door, he was yelled at because "only the volunters are allowed to do it". I saw this on more than one occassion and I know of it in more than one dept.

Once that s*** developed, I'm not surprised the "union" mic stuff came next.

Edited August 30, 2013 by Bnechis

[dave0820 50]

While I am not making excuses for his actions, I do know that in the 80's & 90's in more than 1 Westchester combo dept. that only staffed "paid drivers" if the "paid man" ever left the pump panel, he got put on dept charges. In otherwords, if he arrived at a fire and the volunteers had yet to arrive and he stretched the line past the front door, he was yelled at because "only the volunters are allowed to do it". I saw this on more than one occassion and I know of it in more than one dept.

Once that s*** developed, I'm not surprised the "union" mic stuff came next.

And isn't that wrong, on both sides? Aren't we all there for the same purpose, to save life's and property? For the life of me, I will NEVER understand the CRAP that goes on between union and volunteer firefighter. I give up!

[firemoose827 324]

This is my opinion and how I look at it. I'm sorry if I offend anyone.

Unfortunately unless you call a bunch of two faced and/or backstabbing babies and/or useless social clubbers a brother, the brotherhood is stronger then ever. In my opinion, to be considered a "brother" in the Fire Department, you would actually have to be a firefighter, one who has fought a fire or has been of use at a fire. A "good firefighter" who can tell you good story about a job at the kitchen table. Don't get me wrong, I am extremely proud of where I come from. I believe we run one of the most professional organizations around. BUT, I do come from 20/80 firehouse. 20% of us put our whole life into it and 80% are here for the food, funny drinks, and parades. I often find myself listening to real estate competition and stay at home dad stories. It is very rare I use the term brother with anyone. Not even a "thanks, brother". Lack of fires keep social clubbers around and do not interest gung-ho guys to stay active or join, the guys I would probably end up calling a brother.

When I think of "brotherhood" I think firemen who cook together, clean together, train together, go on runs together, and come home together. Even outside the firehouse these men are together.

No offence but I don't put an ounce of trust into the 12%'er just getting by who comes around for his 3 free meals a month and 3 nights out on the town with the boys a year. How does anyone of this description make up a "brotherhood"? Or at least a true "Fire service brotherhood"?

Again, my opinion. What brotherhood?

I respect your opinion and agree with it for the most part. But I will respectfully ask you this; please do not group all of us in this 80% group that you have experienced until you have actually worked with all of us.

I may not be at the firehouse as much as I want to be, or I may not have fought as many fires as you have fought, but I have fought fires, I have done searches for victims many times and have found them, but not the way I wanted to find them and its multiple images I will never get rid of and a source of pain for my pride that I could not help these people. I train hard, harder than any other volunteer in my department, and currently hold many titles that i will not waste time posting. I take pride in what I do and was brought up the right way with that sense of brotherhood, and I learned that brotherhood from those three career FDNY guys I had the priviledge of working with my first 4 years in the fire service on Long Island and will never forget them.

Im not your typical volunteer, and there are others here on this site that are not the typical volunteer either. Dont get me wrong, there are the wackers here that "Play" volunteer fireman, and dress up and think its cool to play with sirens and deck their cars out with all sorts of strobes and flashers and blinky things...not me. I take it seriously. Im one of the volunteers that strongly agree we should have the same training standards and physical fitness requirements that career firefighters have and am actively fighting that with letters to my government reps and FASNY. I blog about it in another firefighters web site I go to frequently as well and try to get others to agree.

I enter the same burning buildings with the same turnout gear and the same set of irons and the same hose line and I agressively attack the seat of the fire just like I am trained to do.

I think the brotherhood has been killed by situations like these (the above mentioned experiences between volunteer and career members). If you look at my experience with the 4 career staff at the large main street fire, should he realy have acted that way towords me? Especially since most would think a young guy like me should be the one picking up the hose instead of the more experienced member? I was doing what my father and other senior guys taught me all my life; respect the senior men and officers, always jump in and help any firefighter no matter what the job, and always be first to volunteer for any assignment.

I am thankfull for all of the replies on this topic as well as all of the messages I received from members regarding brotherhood and sharing your stories with me too. I respect all of your opinions and I am thankfull no major wars have been started yet. Keep the discussion going and share more brotherhood experiences and stay safe. Have a great weekend too!

[AFS1970 504]

Sadly we end up enforcing this lack of brotherhood ourselves. It starts innocently enough with some good natured rivalry between companies that ends up leading to almsot a breakdown of communications. We set up rules that are designed to make us take sides.

Here are a couple of examples. In my old department that was combination when I joined, the career FF's were still allowed to be active Volunteers on their time off, well er sort of that is, they were actually paid for all responses but only a few knew that. However we had a rule that allowed only one career member to be an officer and another rule that said they could not act in that capacity while at work, but then and here is the confusing part, if there was no officer they were considered acting lieutenants. So the Captain who was my first training officer, was also a career FF. As a Captain he wore red gear, however at work he wore black gear because he was no longer a Captain, but then on most calls that same Captain was an Acting Lieutenant. How confusing do you think that was for a new guy to understand?

Our department was very proud of the Truck and many members considered us a Truck company that also had engines. We went to a call once for multiple cars on fire next to a house, we took the truck as it was in another district. This fire was pretty much all engine work as there was no extension to the house. We got there second and grabbed the second handline that the Engine driver had flaked out. The second Engine had long stretch from the nearest hydrant. When all was said and done and it was time to pack up the hose, my Captain told me and another junior guy to get up on the hosebed and help the Engine crew. A senior man on our crew had words with the Captain ON SCENE about having us do engine work. Not exactly a paragon of brotherhood.

One factor I think has a great deal to do with this however is that familiarity breeds contempt. Distance is a great benefit to brotherhood sometimes. In my 13 years as a volunteer I met more firefighters from out of town (or even ou of state), both career and volunteer, that treated me as a brother than I can count. For the most part we were able to treat each other as equals becasue we did not know each other. Some I took classes with and others I stood next to at funerals, but many I saw over and over again and we always greeted each other as friends. I remember stopping by a career house to meet a friend who worked there after a funeral we had both been at. His officer found out I was a volunteer and thanked me several times for coming to a career funeral in the middle of the week. I don't think I did anything special but it was interesting to see his reaction. When I got back to my own station that night I was criticisized by one of our members for going to the funeral because he knew for a fact that everyone just goes to those to drink beer.

There are definately times when I felt like a brother and times when I felt like an outsider in my own station. That loss of brotherhood was one of the main factors in my leaving.