If you are not thinking forward, you are already behind

[x635 4,066]

If you are not thinking forward, you are already behind! Difference makers prepare and shape their future by always thinking of innovative ways to accomplish a goal. So, are you a progressive thinker, or a complacent wallflower?

From: Drawn By Fire http://www.facebook.com/drawnbyfire

From: Drawn By Fire http://www.facebook.com/drawnbyfire

[efd184 59]

I think a physical agility test for volunteers as well as an equal training standard for both career and volunteer firefighters should be the first step in thinking forward!!!

Domenick

[firemoose827 324]

I think the last bubble on the cartoon should say "Where did I leave my pants...."

I agree and this is why my area isnt where we are supposed to be as a fire service, the old gaurd had become too complacent and never planned for the future. I was at a meeting at the beginning of the month to discuss our new station with the community and they were all asking why it had to be so big, why it had to have showers and a washer and dryer. When I explained about trying to think for the future of the department, and the increasing size of modern fire aparattus and the future needs of the fire service they were stunned into silence.

We need to think of the future in every move we make and prepare for it always. Good points, especially for the physical fitness program for volunteers, we have annual physicals but no fitness test which I believe we should in order to cut back on heart attacks and those "unknown medical" reasons for firefighters to drop at the station after calls.

[dave0820 50]

I think the position of Fire Chief should be a full time paid position for all fire departments, volunteer, career and mixed.In way too many departments the Chief is the most popular guy or the only one who volunteers for the job. Fire fighting and the safety of firefighter has become a science these days. The person in charge has to have a level of education and devotion, not to say that some volunteer chiefs aren't educated and devoted, but unless "Fire Chief" isn't your full time job it's tough to do everything you need to do to make sure your department is operating properly and safely.

[thebreeze 194]

I think the position of Fire Chief should be a full time paid position for all fire departments, volunteer, career and mixed.In way too many departments the Chief is the most popular guy or the only one who volunteers for the job. Fire fighting and the safety of firefighter has become a science these days. The person in charge has to have a level of education and devotion, not to say that some volunteer chiefs aren't educated and devoted, but unless "Fire Chief" isn't your full time job it's tough to do everything you need to do to make sure your department is operating properly and safely.

I think the only result of this would be seeing a lot of bald fire chiefs walking around with bruises on their heads. That's after they're done tearing out all of their hair and smashing their heads against the wall trying to get guys to change their routines, attitudes, and methods. A paid chief cannot accomplish anything just by having that as his full time job, not until there is a set standard for everyone established by the state that he can point to and say, look, you HAVE to do this, you are REQUIRED to do this. Unless you think a whole department of guys is going to start listening to a guy all of a sudden because, hey, he's paid and he said so. If you think that will happen, I have a bridge to sell you too.

[dave0820 50]

I think the only result of this would be seeing a lot of bald fire chiefs walking around with bruises on their heads. That's after they're done tearing out all of their hair and smashing their heads against the wall trying to get guys to change their routines, attitudes, and methods. A paid chief cannot accomplish anything just by having that as his full time job, not until there is a set standard for everyone established by the state that he can point to and say, look, you HAVE to do this, you are REQUIRED to do this. Unless you think a whole department of guys is going to start listening to a guy all of a sudden because, hey, he's paid and he said so. If you think that will happen, I have a bridge to sell you too.

That kind of thinking is exactly what's wrong with the fire service today. People who just sit back and say "it won't work" Maybe it won't work everywhere, but it would be a start. How can any city administrator or town manager really hold a volunteer chief responsible for what goes on in the department? If the Chief's position was a full time paid position, it would be a start to get some accountability. As far as being REQUIRED to do things, you don't need the state, the NFPA standards is what every department should strive for. The name of this thread is "If you are not moving forward, you are already behind" Your thinking is exactly why some many fire departments are behind.

[FirNaTine 370]

I know many Career Chiefs that have gotten that position because they were the "popular guy" or the only one who "volunteered" for the Job! How about raising the 'bar" to get accepted and meet some specific standards and not worry as much about 'quotas" and offending certain groups! Let's begin moving forward in this manner by hiring the most qualified to be able to actually carry out that "Oath" we recite! Whatta ya say?

[thebreeze 194]

That kind of thinking is exactly what's wrong with the fire service today. People who just sit back and say "it won't work" Maybe it won't work everywhere, but it would be a start. How can any city administrator or town manager really hold a volunteer chief responsible for what goes on in the department? If the Chief's position was a full time paid position, it would be a start to get some accountability. As far as being REQUIRED to do things, you don't need the state, the NFPA standards is what every department should strive for. The name of this thread is "If you are not moving forward, you are already behind" Your thinking is exactly why some many fire departments are behind.

So saying that we need a standard that we can actually hold people accountable to isn't thinking forward? Because right now even with all the NFPA standards you are touting, it doesn't get done. So maybe we need something better, or should we just stick with whats not working and hope adding another bureaucrat to the mix fixes it? You don't think there are volunteer chiefs out there striving for their departments to attain the NFPA minimum? That's a harsh criticism. Paying a chief is pointless if he has no authority to do anything, a bunch of volunteers under a paid chief aren't going to respect him or listen to him just because he's paid. Giving someone money to do the job doesn't provide them with a better mechanism to do the job, and that's what I am advocating. I am all for change, I just don't see any benefit to essentially adding another entire layer of bureaucracy on top of an already top heavy fire service here in New York. Until you can strengthen the base of the pyramid, by providing one single standard of training for all firefighters, there's no point in adding more dead weight to the top. That doesn't even touch the topics of medical exams, or physical fitness.

[grumpyff 1,159]

I think the position of Fire Chief should be a full time paid position for all fire departments, volunteer, career and mixed.In way too many departments the Chief is the most popular guy or the only one who volunteers for the job. Fire fighting and the safety of firefighter has become a science these days. The person in charge has to have a level of education and devotion, not to say that some volunteer chiefs aren't educated and devoted, but unless "Fire Chief" isn't your full time job it's tough to do everything you need to do to make sure your department is operating properly and safely.

Just another paid position on a rotten fish. Being paid is not always the answer. How about every volunteer on this board, or better yet in this area write a letter and make a copies. Send one to FASNY, and the others to your elected officials demanding the same training as our paid counterparts. Professional firefighter training (and yearly refresher training) is written into law, remove the professional (paid) label so that firefighter training for both volunteer and paid is the same. The state will have find additional funding in the budget to accomplish this. FASNY would also have to be persuaded to support this. I think a lot of the problems we see in this area would improve. Might put a dent in some of the recruitment efforts, but maybe the ones who complain about training are not the people we want joining.

[dave0820 50]

Just another paid position on a rotten fish. Being paid is not always the answer. How about every volunteer on this board, or better yet in this area write a letter and make a copies. Send one to FASNY, and the others to your elected officials demanding the same training as our paid counterparts. Professional firefighter training (and yearly refresher training) is written into law, remove the professional (paid) label so that firefighter training for both volunteer and paid is the same. The state will have find additional funding in the budget to accomplish this. FASNY would also have to be persuaded to support this. I think a lot of the problems we see in this area would improve. Might put a dent in some of the recruitment efforts, but maybe the ones who complain about training are not the people we want joining.

I can't state NY Laws, but I doubt there is a law that allows career fire fighters to get more or different training then a volunteer firefighter. I just think if the fire chief was a part of the town/city/village like the police chief or the head of DPW he or she would have a better chance of getting money for training. Let's face it, the people running the town have never had to think about or put any real money into the fire department. Who's fighting for your department to get what you need? My guess is when the PAID police chief asks for something he is more likely to get it, rather then the volunteer fire chief. I wonder why some many people are afraid to change and progress, if you don't change and grow you will be left behind.

[grumpyff 1,159]

Sadly yes, in NYS the only mention of firefighter training relates to professional (paid) firefighters. A professional firefighter in an academy in NYS will receive 200+ hours of training, plus mandatory refresher training every year they are on the job. A volunteer firefighter will get around 90 hours in Firefighter I, with refresher training a bare minimum as required by OSHA (in NYS..PESH), with no requirement to train further. Some, like myself are grandfathered in, I took the old Basic Essentials of Firemanship, a grand total of 39 hours of training, with no requirement to take additional classes. I cant remember the exact numbers (or legal statutes off the top of my head) that mandate training.

In NYS, many volunteer fire departments are a taxing entity. They determine their budget, and tax rate, and submit to the town to collect it for them. Some towns/villages have no say in the fire department budget, either in the tax rate collected, or how the money is spent. Others are controlled by the town/village with input from the fire chiefs, or a board of commissioners (or trustees, whatever system the use). IN the lower part of NYS (Long Island, Westchester, Rockland, Putnam) it is not a lack of money or access to equipment that is causing problems.

[ex-commish 490]

Just another paid position on a rotten fish. Being paid is not always the answer. How about every volunteer on this board, or better yet in this area write a letter and make a copies. Send one to FASNY, and the others to your elected officials demanding the same training as our paid counterparts. Professional firefighter training (and yearly refresher training) is written into law, remove the professional (paid) label so that firefighter training for both volunteer and paid is the same. The state will have find additional funding in the budget to accomplish this. FASNY would also have to be persuaded to support this. I think a lot of the problems we see in this area would improve. Might put a dent in some of the recruitment efforts, but maybe the ones who complain about training are not the people we want joining.

Good luck with FASNY....I wrote them years ago when I was working as both a CFI and SFI and when the state went from the Basic, Int, and advanced cirriculum to FF1 and FF2. I expressed my concern that the time has come that we (volunteers) need to come up to par with the rest of the country with training. I felt that the FF1 as we have now was not enough for entry level and should include FAST, AVET, and HAZ-OPS at a minumum. Got no where.

Edited August 28, 2013 by HFD219

[ex-commish 490]

"I can't state NY Laws, but I doubt there is a law that allows career fire fighters to get more or different training then a volunteer firefighter. "

On the contrary in NY paid firefighters have mandatory basic and in-service training. Volunteers do not although most volunteer deparments do require FF! and some FF2 as well but that is under home rule and not dictated by the state.

[dave0820 50]

On the contrary in NY paid firefighters have mandatory basic and in-service training. Volunteers do not although most volunteer deparments do require FF! and some FF2 as well but that is under home rule and not dictated by the state.

Well, if that's true, I stand corrected. So that would mean that the state on NY feels that a Career fire fighter life is more valuable then a volunteer's? That my brothers is just total BS and I can't believe you (and me many years ago) put up with that. This does go alone with what I have been saying, Westchester Fire Departments need to become better organized and change the things that are wrong with the system, stop just going along with things because that's how it's always been done.

[Danger 160]

FASNY might not ever change but that doesn't stop agencies from starting probationary firefighters with Firefighter 1 and then awarding full interior member status when 229 equivalent (or similar adopted standard) is acheived. Can't blame that on FASNY.

Not training your people isn't being easy on them, it's putting them in danger.

[efd184 59]

It's not just the training. There should also be a physical standard. Career firefighters I. Westchester have to pass a CPAT to get into the academy and another CPAT to get out. Why is it not the same for the volunteers? Has anyone noticed what I have? A simple pat on the back from the doctor does not mean your capable of fighting a fire or doing 90% of the other work we do as firefighters both career and volunteer. We do the same job why is it not treated the same? As a chief of a dept don't you want the best? Or do you want the kids that was sheltered by his parents playing video games and being told everyone gets a trophy during tball. If you don't make a change that's what your getting. Half of the new kids signing up have no idea that there life is on the line and the choice they made to become a firefighter can be tested at any moment and the may have to act with courage to save a life. They DONT get it and YOUR responsible!!!!

[Bnechis 3,961]

Well, if that's true, I stand corrected. So that would mean that the state on NY feels that a Career fire fighter life is more valuable then a volunteer's? That my brothers is just total BS and I can't believe you (and me many years ago) put up with that. This does go alone with what I have been saying, Westchester Fire Departments need to become better organized and change the things that are wrong with the system, stop just going along with things because that's how it's always been done.

Its not the state that feels that way its the volunteer fire service.

The NYSPFFA (Unions) fought hard to get minimum standards for entry levelfirefighters AND for 1st line supervisors.

FASNY (the lobbying organization for volunteer fire) fought hard to prevent any standards, including career ones.

Albany comprimised and gave both sides what they asked for....2 standards.

Actually the volunteer fire service believes that their lives are more valuable. I base this statement on the lobbying efforts over the past 4 years to change the standards of who gets on the LODD memorial. NYSPFFA wants it to be true LODD (i.e. killed at an incident, returning from or responding to or in some cases training) with no volunteer or career status attached. FASNY has fought hard to include any activity, so a volunteer who is drunk & high and falls off a picnic table at a pancake breakfast and dies should be on the wall next to the 343 FDNY Heros who died on 9/11. Its not the same and everyone knows it.

If you die in the TRUE line of duty, you should be honored. Thats not a volunteer or career issue.

[grumpyff 1,159]

FASNY might not ever change but that doesn't stop agencies from starting probationary firefighters with Firefighter 1 and then awarding full interior member status when 229 equivalent (or similar adopted standard) is acheived. Can't blame that on FASNY.

Not training your people isn't being easy on them, it's putting them in danger.

Thats great, but what happens when the department or departments around you do not share your desire for training? Do you as an officer in charge call them for mutual aid, or do you bypass them. Just search for topics on this board using the term 'Yonkers' to get your answer. It happens frequently in Westchester, and is one of the problems facing the fire service in Westchester

[firemoose827 324]

That kind of thinking is exactly what's wrong with the fire service today. People who just sit back and say "it won't work" Maybe it won't work everywhere, but it would be a start. How can any city administrator or town manager really hold a volunteer chief responsible for what goes on in the department? If the Chief's position was a full time paid position, it would be a start to get some accountability. As far as being REQUIRED to do things, you don't need the state, the NFPA standards is what every department should strive for. The name of this thread is "If you are not moving forward, you are already behind" Your thinking is exactly why some many fire departments are behind.

As everyone here knows, or should know, NFPA Standards are just that; standards. They are glorified recommendations that NFPA boards of specialists suggest we follow in our agencies. They are not requirements, but standards put together by a board of experts in the field and offered as suggestions of what we as fire departments should strive to follow. These standards are then taken and voted on and turned into state and local laws, if approved. BUT...If you fail to follow what a board of experts suggested resulting in a serious injury or death??? Courts will rip you apart for that as a chief, whether you are a volunteer or career chief.

Good luck with FASNY....I wrote them years ago when I was working as both a CFI and SFI and when the state went from the Basic, Int, and advanced cirriculum to FF1 and FF2. I expressed my concern that the time has come that we (volunteers) need to come up to par with the rest of the country with training. I felt that the FF1 as we have now was not enough for entry level and should include FAST, AVET, and HAZ-OPS at a minumum. Got no where.

That is the issue, you were one of the only ones to write them your concerns. What needs to happen is ALL of us need to write FASNY and our local government and the state requesting these changes as a whole body of concerned firefighters. I will be doing this soon myself so if anyone is interested in collaborating let me know, we can write a decent letter if we put many minds to the task.

It's not just the training. There should also be a physical standard. Career firefighters I. Westchester have to pass a CPAT to get into the academy and another CPAT to get out. Why is it not the same for the volunteers? Has anyone noticed what I have? A simple pat on the back from the doctor does not mean your capable of fighting a fire or doing 90% of the other work we do as firefighters both career and volunteer. We do the same job why is it not treated the same? As a chief of a dept don't you want the best? Or do you want the kids that was sheltered by his parents playing video games and being told everyone gets a trophy during tball. If you don't make a change that's what your getting. Half of the new kids signing up have no idea that there life is on the line and the choice they made to become a firefighter can be tested at any moment and the may have to act with courage to save a life. They DONT get it and YOUR responsible!!!!

I agree completely with the physical standards being the same as well. Too many firefighters are dropping with heart related and unknown medical causes during and after the response. How many times have we all read about LODD that happened at the station AFTER the call was over? Firefighters found in their bunks, or in the shower deceased?? We are dropping like flies because we are not physically fit, and it needs to change. Dont get me wrong, my nickname is moose for a reason; not because I am a muscle bound freak, but because I have a convenient shelf to put my plate at dinner time or my beer while watching football, and I need to loose it BIGTIME. I am a chief, and the message I am sending the members is the wrong one. If we had standards for physical fitness I would have worked hard to keep my post-high school physique I had after playing baseball; I was 195 pounds and in the best shape of my life...now the only shape I am in is round. We as volunteers need to have the same training and the same physical fitness standards as the career departments do, and as someone already said above, if we end up loosing people because of the increase in standards then they are the ones we did not need int he first place. Im all for change, and its needed.

[FirNaTine 370]

It's not just the training. There should also be a physical standard. Career firefighters I. Westchester have to pass a CPAT to get into the academy and another CPAT to get out. Why is it not the same for the volunteers? Has anyone noticed what I have? A simple pat on the back from the doctor does not mean your capable of fighting a fire or doing 90% of the other work we do as firefighters both career and volunteer. We do the same job why is it not treated the same? As a chief of a dept don't you want the best? Or do you want the kids that was sheltered by his parents playing video games and being told everyone gets a trophy during tball. If you don't make a change that's what your getting. Half of the new kids signing up have no idea that there life is on the line and the choice they made to become a firefighter can be tested at any moment and the may have to act with courage to save a life. They DONT get it and YOUR responsible!!!!

100% correct, and this is also why our new called "Senior Men" are not the "Senior Men" of 20 + yrs ago. Many are just as lazy and don't lead by example anymore or take the bull by the horns and pass their bad habits onto the Junior men and encourage them to do the same. "Tradition" in the Fire Service is becoming a thing of the past unfortunately. The Job has become nothing more then a paycheck!

[efd184 59]

FDNY Lt. Ray McCormack i thing sums up my feelings in these videos. IF you havent saw them yet listen to what he says about putting your life on the line. if you have saw it watch it again!!!!