Should Westchester Bring Back The "Quint" Radio Designator?

[x635 4,066]

Should Westchester Bring Back The "Quint" Radio Designator? Vote in the poll above, and/or add your comments below!

[AFS1970 504]

I can't really speak towards westchester, but I know that from a dispatch perspective it is nice to know when a unit has some special ability/equipment. I know there are staffing issues among some that lead them to designate quints as either an Engine or a Ladder, but in some cases they really aren't either. I have seen mutual aid plans that do not recognize engines with less than 500 gallon booster tanks and insurance ratings that do not recognize ladders under 100'. Yet these rigs are for all their limitations still a versitile resource.

From an incident command perspective knowing what is nearby is helpful in deciding if you simpl;y want the next due or need to special call to get around a limitation. Knowing what is coming can help you plan for the incident much better and utilize resources better.

Quints are not the answer to everything, as St. Louis learned, but they can be helpful in a number of situations. However they are not a good fit in all the districts even within a single city. While it would be tempting to put one in a slower rural or suburban area that doesn't need that long a ladder remember that those are often the districts that need the most water, perhaps even larger than normal tanks that would preclude the weight of a ladder.

Oddly enough as I am writing this my neighborhood quint just came past me on a call. Of course it is called and engine because quint's don't exist here either.

[thebreeze 194]

What about quads? I think a quad is a lot more practical for some departments that don't really have any larger structures.

[xchief2x 79]

In my opinion NO! There is also no need to have a ladder and tower ladder designation either, a Good Chief will know what resources they have available to them from their mutual aid departments. This is of course MY OERSONAL OPINION.

[wraftery 1,275]

Are they typed by NIMS?

[AFS1970 504]

There absolutely is a reason to designates Towers and Ladders differently. A good Chief will know his department and the surrounding departments and maybe anything unique from the next town after that, but nobody can know every rig in the county (or beyond), especially in the heat of commanding a dynamic incident. I can think of one fire many years ago in Stamford where buckets would have been very useful after the IC had made the decision not to do a certain operation with straight ladders. At the time there was a Tower Ladder FromBelltown that had been relocated downtown, a Snorkel in Springdale, A Tower Ladder in Greenwich and a Tower Ladder and Snorkel in Darien but for whatevver reason they were never called for. I am not second guessing the Chief on the scene but I would be willing to bet that he was probably aware of the two rigs from Stamford and might have been aware of the Greenwich and Darien ones, However Norwalk and Portchester were probably not even considerations.

This happens all the time with Tankers. We know the departments we deal with regularly, but not the other nearby ones. I remember hearing about Port Chester having a water issue a few years ago and they were sending Tankers from all over the county in and rotating them a few hours at a time. I don't know if Greenwich was included but I know the two tankers in Stamford were not and we are only two towns away. For that matter New Canaan and Darien could have rotated in and been closer than some of the Westchester tankers that were called. So there are numerous cases where the Chief may not be aware of what resources he has nearby.

[Bnechis 3,961]

I can't really speak towards westchester, but I know that from a dispatch perspective it is nice to know when a unit has some special ability/equipment. I know there are staffing issues among some that lead them to designate quints as either an Engine or a Ladder, but in some cases they really aren't either. I have seen mutual aid plans that do not recognize engines with less than 500 gallon booster tanks and insurance ratings that do not recognize ladders under 100'.

The insurance ratings do not have a ladder minimum length. They rate a 55' stick the same as a 220' Bronto Platform

They do rate quits as either and engine and 1/2 a ladder or a ladder & 1/2 an engine (you get to pick which it is). So they do recognize you can not do both.

They also expect that to get credit for both they most carry 100% of the ladder co & 100% of the engine company required equipment. I know of no manufacturer that can build a quint that carries all the hose, water, ladders and other equipment required so your 1.5 units will get a percentage downgrade based on whats missing.

THey also still expect the manpower of an engine and ladder, so if you run with less than 8 its not getting full credit.

[Bnechis 3,961]

Are they typed by NIMS?

NIMS typing includes minimum staffing on the unit. Westchester only lists that for Squads

[dwcfireman 656]

The insurance ratings do not have a ladder minimum length. They rate a 55' stick the same as a 220' Bronto Platform

They do rate quits as either and engine and 1/2 a ladder or a ladder & 1/2 an engine (you get to pick which it is). So they do recognize you can not do both.

They also expect that to get credit for both they most carry 100% of the ladder co & 100% of the engine company required equipment. I know of no manufacturer that can build a quint that carries all the hose, water, ladders and other equipment required so your 1.5 units will get a percentage downgrade based on whats missing.

THey also still expect the manpower of an engine and ladder, so if you run with less than 8 its not getting full credit.

Regardless of the NFPA or local requirements of designating a ladder or tower ladder or quint, wouldn't it be nice to label apparatus as to it's capabilities and tools that it carries? Such as a quint, you know you're getting a ladder truck with a pump; a rescue-pumper/engine, an engine company with rescue tools; a tower ladder, a platformed aerial with a waterway...IMO we should be labeling apparatus as to what they are capable of accomplishing on scene. I know if I call in a quint I can use it as a ladder or an engine. I know if I call in a tower ladder I'm going to get a platform with a wateryway. In my (possibly ignorant) mind, if I call an engine I get ad engine, and if I call a ladder I get a straight stick with no (or MAYBE with a) pump. In the chaos of that we call the "fire scene," maybe we should be designating apparatus of what the vehicle is designed to do.

Another opinion of mine, get rid of the squad designation. Where I'm from a squad is a pick-up with a utility body with a few extra guys and some extra tools, usually used for BS calls like pump outs or BLS/EMS calls. I understand that a squad in NYC and Westchester is a "special" unit that can act as either an engine, ladder, or rescue company depending on what it's called for or it's rotation, but you're really just getting an engine with a diverse crew. Again, my own opinion, regardless of what type of apparatus you arrive on, you should be ready to operate in any situation you are assigned to.

EDIT: The above is my opinion based on APPARATUS designation, not the designation of individual firefighters or companies.

Edited August 23, 2013 by dwcfireman

[wraftery 1,275]

NIMS typing includes minimum staffing on the unit. Westchester only lists that for Squads

My NIMS question was tongue in cheek. They have been to define "what's an engine, what's a truck" for years. Expect it to be many centuries before the answer to he RESCUE type finishes. It's political correctness that's holding things up. They need somebody that can say like it or not, this is what we are calling your little buggy.

[Bnechis 3,961]

1) Regardless of the NFPA or local requirements of designating a ladder or tower ladder or quint, wouldn't it be nice to label apparatus as to it's capabilities and tools that it carries?

2) Such as a quint, you know you're getting a ladder truck with a pump;

3) a rescue-pumper/engine, an engine company with rescue tools;

4) IMO we should be labeling apparatus as to what they are capable of accomplishing on scene.

5) I know if I call in a quint I can use it as a ladder or an engine.

6) In the chaos of that we call the "fire scene," maybe we should be designating apparatus of what the vehicle is designed to do.

1) You are correct and its called NIMS Typing. Its about the capabilities (i.e. how many trained firefighters will arriveon it) not about the tools. Do we need to list that engine 1 is equipped with a car lockout kit or is it better we standardize what rigs carry? In Great Britton, all 4 countries carry the exact same thing on an engine, nothing less and nothing more anditsin the same compartment on every rig. I watched a live burn at there officer school where 6 new Lts. (from 6 different depts) were placed on a "pump" and dispatched to a housefire (2 storyburn building). They operated togetherlike they had work the same shift for years. Wow, minimum manning of 6 and the training and sop's are so standardized that I did not know these 6 had never worked a day together.

2) Actually with a quint you know you are getting a ladder with a pump, that does not carry enough water,&/or hose, &/or ground ladders to get the job done right, or is so big it can't fit into many scenes.

3) This rescue/pumper does it just have an extrication tool ordoes it also have all the other tools needed to do "basic" rescues? Does it carry enough cribbing to handle a 2 car accident (most do not), what about a school bus accident? Can they also handle confined space, building collapse, etc.? We have an engine with a rescue style body that carries a combi tool and some cribbing (the purpose is so they can handle a very basic incident or start on a serious one while waiting the 3 minutes for a ladder company to arrive) but we do not call it a "rescue/pumper"because it is not.

On the same note we also do not call our ladders "Rescue/Ladders" even though they carry more rescue equipment than many of the "Heavy" Rescue units in the county. They carry spreaders, cutters, rams, airbags (all sizes), cribbing and struts, plus jacks, assorted hand tools, water rescue equipment (one carries a boat and ice rescue suits). And they get backed up with a heavy rescue on most calls.

4) I agree, so lets label some rigs as Understaffed Engine #1 and Untrained Ladder Co # 479 and properly staffed Rescue X

5) maybe see #2 above

6) Maybe in the CHAOS (Chief Has Arrived On Scene) we need to simplifiy and standardized so there is no question as to what can be assigned to what.

[Bnechis 3,961]

1) ...IMO we should be labeling apparatus as to what they are capable of accomplishing on scene.

Another opinion of mine, get rid of the squad designation.

2) Where I'm from a squad is a pick-up with a utility body with a few extra guys and some extra tools, usually used for BS calls like pump outs or BLS/EMS calls.

3) I understand that a squad in NYC and Westchester is a "special" unit that can act as either an engine, ladder, or rescue company depending on what it's called for or it's rotation, but you're really just getting an engine with a diverse crew.

1) Which is it? In the first paragraph you want labeling for capability and the 2nd you think we should get rid of the best definition we have

2) In Westchester thats a Utility

3) In Westchester that is not a Squad (see definition):

A vehicle(s) consisting of at least an Engine with or without other support vehicles (i.e.: Rescue, Ladder, or Utility Type), equipped with additional and specific equipment to handle hazardous materials / WMD (Weapons of Mass Destruction) and/or technical rescue, that will respond with a minimum of six (6) trained and certified members, included a company officer.

For hazmat and WMD the minimum training level shall be Haz-Mat Technician (as identified under OSHA 1910.120) and the squad shall have the equipment necessary to perform air monitoring, level “A” suit and decontamination.

For technical rescue the minimum training level shall be based on NFPA 1670. All members shall be at the technician level for structural collapse, trench rescue and confined space rescue and at the operations level for rope rescue.

The squad shall have the equipment necessary to initiate a response, safely size up and identify additional resources required to safely mitigate these incidents.

[dwcfireman 656]

1) You are correct and its called NIMS Typing. Its about the capabilities (i.e. how many trained firefighters will arriveon it) not about the tools. Do we need to list that engine 1 is equipped with a car lockout kit or is it better we standardize what rigs carry? In Great Britton, all 4 countries carry the exact same thing on an engine, nothing less and nothing more anditsin the same compartment on every rig. I watched a live burn at there officer school where 6 new Lts. (from 6 different depts) were placed on a "pump" and dispatched to a housefire (2 storyburn building). They operated togetherlike they had work the same shift for years. Wow, minimum manning of 6 and the training and sop's are so standardized that I did not know these 6 had never worked a day together.

6) Maybe in the CHAOS (Chief Has Arrived On Scene) we need to simplifiy and standardized so there is no question as to what can be assigned to what.

1) I got to see this while I was in Ireland. It was awesome to see how this system works, which begs the question of why can't we accomplish this in the US (I know there are many answers to that question, but we'll save that for a different thread).

6) I recall this was a discussion before. Do you remember what thread that may have been in? I want to look back and see what others had to say on the subject, but I can't remember the name of the thread or if it actually existed. Maybe we should start a new one...

p.s. Your definition of CHAOS is the same as mine hahaha