60 Control's Policy on No Responses

[andyfr311 0]

If there any EMS agencies in Westchester looking to supplement their personnel with some paid staff or setup a mutual aid agreement with a commercial agency, let me know.

[Bnechis 3,961]

1) your right on target. Resident of these villages don't realize that their property taxes are high is due to the School Tax Bill. School Taxes are about 75-80% of our total property tax.

2) Village taxes are not that bad considering the service we get. If paid Fire oe EMS was to go into a village, Yes it will increase Village or Town tax, but there are ways to cut other things to have a paid service. I'm a Volunteer and I would hate to see a Paid service come into my village, but I also don't want to see some die do to response time.

1) same in the city's

2) Yes if each village went paid the community would go bankrupt. That is why most places in the world do not try to place as much apparatus in each square mile as westchester has.

A few years ago I looked at the per capita paid for FD services in about half the depts in the county and what I found is the majority of the volunteer communities paid more per capita than any of the city FD's. I pay half in NR what a homeowner in Bedford hills pays.

This is why regional depts. are more cost effect and without them there is no way we can afford paid services.

[spin_the_wheel 460]

Very well said and I agree with you. I no longer live in Westchester, but what I wonder is, why is it so hard to change whatever law it is that prevents a county wide fire service. Other states do it with much lower taxes. I think a county wide fire department would help. The volunteer companies could support the county fire fighters, but at least an engine would be able to respond quickly. In citys where there is already a career department in place there would be no need for county firefighters. I agree this is a long way out, but someone should be at least getting a plan in gear.

You wouldn't have to even go paid in a county wide fire service. See how it would work out just having one system and response plan in place with less apparatus. Instead of one department having to man 5 rigs they may now be responsible for only 1 or 2. NOW if they cannot even man 1 rig, that is another story. But I don't think going paid right off the bat would be the right choice. Transition into a combination department is very rough. Don't cross that bridge until you have to.

[Dinosaur 844]

You wouldn't have to even go paid in a county wide fire service. See how it would work out just having one system and response plan in place with less apparatus. Instead of one department having to man 5 rigs they may now be responsible for only 1 or 2. NOW if they cannot even man 1 rig, that is another story. But I don't think going paid right off the bat would be the right choice. Transition into a combination department is very rough. Don't cross that bridge until you have to.

When do you have to? When you can no longer get out for anything or when you have so few members you're ineffective? NOW is the time to start regionalizing and consolidating small departments to make viable, effective ones.

[dave0820 50]

Isn't it better to be proactive then to be reactive? I no longer live in Westchester, when I was there I was a volunteer fire fighter, so I can see things from the volunteer perspective. I left NY and worked for a combined fire Dept. we had 2-4 full time fire fighters on duty at all time. When we had a Med call, they took the ambulance, the "call Co" volunteers" came in and covered the station. We were ready for the next call. If it was a fire, the career guys took the first due pumper, the call company responded with other truck to support them. If more resources were needed mutual aid was called. This system worked very well. Now I live in an area where there is a county wide fire department. The county is 688 square miles, we have 17 stations, they run 13 engines, 6 quints, 17 rescue ambulances, 3 tankers, 10 brush trucks 3 foam truck and a haz mat unit. The medics man the back of 2 choppers that are piloted by the sheriffs office for air transports. My reason for listing all this is, why is it that here in FL a Dept. like this can operate on 25% of the taxes people in Westchester pay? It can be done there, but it would require some people at the top to realize that things have to change. That's just my opinion for what it's worth.

[Morningjoe 162]

A few years ago I looked at the per capita paid for FD services in about half the depts in the county and what I found is the majority of the volunteer communities paid more per capita than any of the city FD's. I pay half in NR what a homeowner in Bedford hills pays.

This is why regional depts. are more cost effect and without them there is no way we can afford paid services.

What % of the tax base is commercial and residential though in the city, compared to the commercial and residential percentage in the more rural areas of the county? I've never really seen a study so I have no idea if this is a justifiable argument or not.

[Westchester 49]

1) same in the city's

2) Yes if each village went paid the community would go bankrupt. That is why most places in the world do not try to place as much apparatus in each square mile as westchester has.

A few years ago I looked at the per capita paid for FD services in about half the depts in the county and what I found is the majority of the volunteer communities paid more per capita than any of the city FD's. I pay half in NR what a homeowner in Bedford hills pays.

This is why regional depts. are more cost effect and without them there is no way we can afford paid services.

ok! So whats the best if not only way to fix this problem? And will the higher powers listen to you, me, and others? If this problem isn't corrected in any village of town that has problems who is to blame if someone dies?

[dave0820 50]

The problem is (in my opinion) that most people that live in all the little towns and villages in Westchester have lived there all their lives. They assume that their town is giving them the best services possible. They see the shinny fire trucks in the parade and all the fire fighters marching in their dress uniforms. They see the EMS rigs following their fire departments and the marching bands make everyone happy. But is that an allusion, at 1:15 in the afternoon if they need all those shinny fire trucks and all those firefighter that marched in the parade, will they be there? In some cases maybe, I'm sure there are some volunteer Departments in Westchester that do a great job, but I think there are some other that have a hard time getting trucks on the road and fire fighter on the hose lines. If they do get there, how long does it take? Did a small stove fire turn into a 2 alarm structure fire because it took too long for the first due rig to get there? I commend anyone that is a volunteer firefighter or EMT. It requires a lot of training and lots of time away from your family, but it's harder and harder to get volunteers. Many people work 2 jobs due to this poor economy, it's just a fact. My comments are by no means meant to disparage any volunteer fire company or fire fighter, I just think the towns and village governments need to give their people the best possible Fire, Police and EMS services possible. The taxpayers deserve it.

[EMT111 149]

If there any EMS agencies in Westchester looking to supplement their personnel with some paid staff or setup a mutual aid agreement with a commercial agency, let me know.

The problem with having a paid EMS agency backing up a VAC is that the volunteers become reliant on the paid agency and stop coming out for the 'boring calls". I had one incident a couple of months ago, a neighboring VAC couldn't get out to a chest pains call at a local nursing home around 100 hours, so they went to their commercial service backup. In order to save money though, the commercial service only had a couple of ambulances on the road over night, so all the service had available was a ALS fly car. So they went to the first due mutual aid VAC for a transport unit, who also couldn't get a rig out. Finally, after about 15 minutes after the initial dispatch, they turned it over to my agency for the transport rig. It took us another 20 minutes to get on scene, and then probably another 10 minutes to the ER, for a total of about 45 minutes between the initial dispatch and the time the patient got to the ER. Luckily we stepped on it going to the hospital, because as soon as we got the patient on the ER bed, he coded. So I would rather see paid staff dedicated to staffing a specific rig rather than making a mutual aid agreement with a commercial service.

[spin_the_wheel 460]

When do you have to? When you can no longer get out for anything or when you have so few members you're ineffective? NOW is the time to start regionalizing and consolidating small departments to make viable, effective ones.

You would study specific geographic areas, alarm totals, manpower and response to alarms.

If an area of departments does not have a problem with getting out why would they need paid personel? You may cut down on the number of apparatus they would be responsible to man. Instead of getting 6 rigs out with 15 people among the 6 rigs, they now would have 15 on 2 rigs. Nice size crews in any system.

On the other hand if an area involving 2 or 3 departments has a problem then have a paid person or 2 on duty to work with the volunteers. Regionalizing and consoildating smalle departments/companies does not automaticaly mean going paid.

[spin_the_wheel 460]

Isn't it better to be proactive then to be reactive? I no longer live in Westchester, when I was there I was a volunteer fire fighter, so I can see things from the volunteer perspective. I left NY and worked for a combined fire Dept. we had 2-4 full time fire fighters on duty at all time. When we had a Med call, they took the ambulance, the "call Co" volunteers" came in and covered the station. We were ready for the next call. If it was a fire, the career guys took the first due pumper, the call company responded with other truck to support them. If more resources were needed mutual aid was called. This system worked very well. Now I live in an area where there is a county wide fire department. The county is 688 square miles, we have 17 stations, they run 13 engines, 6 quints, 17 rescue ambulances, 3 tankers, 10 brush trucks 3 foam truck and a haz mat unit. The medics man the back of 2 choppers that are piloted by the sheriffs office for air transports. My reason for listing all this is, why is it that here in FL a Dept. like this can operate on 25% of the taxes people in Westchester pay? It can be done there, but it would require some people at the top to realize that things have to change. That's just my opinion for what it's worth.

The county you live in probably went to this system in the late 60's early 70's. That was the time Westchester, Nassau, Putnam etc...should have done this IF it were to happen. A firefighters salary and benefits is probably nothing near what a firefighters salary and benefits is like in our area of NY.

Introducing 100 paid firefighters as "county" firefighters who will make historically what their counterparts make salary wise in the same geographic area may be a savings in the short term. But 20 years from now this system will probably be more expensive then the current system with salary cost factor NEVER going lower.

One thing the volunteer system does have going for it is that the powers to be, commissioners, wardens, trustees whatever you call them do have the power to LOWER the cost of fire protection. Unlike a system with salaries in place that will always rise. Now I know this does not solve the manpower issue, but if it is taken by a district by district solution, a single department can probably find a way to cut costs to budget and hire one or two paid personnel for daytime responses.

In a total county model years from now the people in charge will probably want to cut firefighters as is the trend everywhere. I dont see this reversing itself. 20 years from now you will have less apparatrus and less firefighters then you do now in a county wide system IF a strong volunteer base is not sustained.

[Bnechis 3,961]

Isn't it better to be proactive then to be reactive?

Now I live in an area where there is a county wide fire department. The county is 688 square miles, we have 17 stations, they run 13 engines, 6 quints, 17 rescue ambulances, 3 tankers, 10 brush trucks 3 foam truck and a haz mat unit. The medics man the back of 2 choppers that are piloted by the sheriffs office for air transports. My reason for listing all this is, why is it that here in FL a Dept. like this can operate on 25% of the taxes people in Westchester pay? It can be done there, but it would require some people at the top to realize that things have to change. That's just my opinion for what it's worth.

If we were proactive, we would no longer be part of New York State, I'm sure Albany passed a law on that.

Westchester is 433 square miles

59 Depts.

approximatly 125 stations

approximatly 200 engines and spares

approximatly 77 Ladders, Towers and Spares

approximatly 45 Rescues

approximatly 17 Tankers

How many of the 450+ apparatus have manning?

How much are we spending (collectivly) on apparatus we cant man?

On stations to house it?

On maintenance?

On insurance?

On equipment?

Now when everyone points ot the schools, we havethe same problem multiplied by 100 million dollar budgets.

[spin_the_wheel 460]

If we were proactive, we would no longer be part of New York State, I'm sure Albany passed a law on that.

Westchester is 433 square miles

59 Depts.

approximatly 125 stations

approximatly 200 engines and spares

approximatly 77 Ladders, Towers and Spares

approximatly 45 Rescues

approximatly 17 Tankers

How many of the 450+ apparatus have manning?

How much are we spending (collectivly) on apparatus we cant man?

On stations to house it?

On maintenance?

On insurance?

On equipment?

Now when everyone points ot the schools, we havethe same problem multiplied by 100 million dollar budgets.

Does this number include Yonkers, White Plains and New Rochelle? I would think any major consolidation would not include these departments. I would think these departments are big enough and busy enough to co-exist outside of a major consolidation plan no?

[Bnechis 3,961]

Does this number include Yonkers, White Plains and New Rochelle? I would think any major consolidation would not include these departments. I would think these departments are big enough and busy enough to co-exist outside of a major consolidation plan no?

It does include them. Busy enough, yes. Big enough, no. We keep doing more calls with fewer resources. And as long as we stand alone, the powers that be will continue to cut away

[Bnechis 3,961]

What % of the tax base is commercial and residential though in the city, compared to the commercial and residential percentage in the more rural areas of the county? I've never really seen a study so I have no idea if this is a justifiable argument or not.

Good question, I do not completely know. But I do know that our commercial base is the smallest of all the cities. I know that in looking at some general studies, it still showed that even if you have major differences in the commercial / residential, its still generally cheaper as the size goes up.

[Bnechis 3,961]

1) One thing the volunteer system does have going for it is that the powers to be, commissioners, wardens, trustees whatever you call them do have the power to LOWER the cost of fire protection.

2) Now I know this does not solve the manpower issue, but if it is taken by a district by district solution, a single department can probably find a way to cut costs to budget and hire one or two paid personnel for daytime responses.

1) Generally only by reducing the amount of equipment, apparatus, training (if they pay for it) and recruitment/retention efforts.While this maybe possible, It rarely happens.

2) Most of the westchester depts do not have large enough budgets to cut deep enough to pay for staff.

[spin_the_wheel 460]

It does include them. Busy enough, yes. Big enough, no. We keep doing more calls with fewer resources. And as long as we stand alone, the powers that be will continue to cut away

So noted. However as much as many will knock the volunteer departments for not giving up there individuality if you will, there is NO way I could ever see a city like Yonkers, White Plains or even New Rochelle give up there "names" to be a part of a "Westchester County Fire Rescue Department"

You would know better then I would ever know...do you think it is remotely possible?

[Bnechis 3,961]

So noted. However as much as many will knock the volunteer departments for not giving up there individuality if you will, there is NO way I could ever see a city like Yonkers, White Plains or even New Rochelle give up there "names" to be a part of a "Westchester County Fire Rescue Department"

You would know better then I would ever know...do you think it is remotely possible?

Depends on the $$$ and I think would have a better chance if you take "county" out of it.

[Dinosaur 844]

You would study specific geographic areas, alarm totals, manpower and response to alarms.

If an area of departments does not have a problem with getting out why would they need paid personel? You may cut down on the number of apparatus they would be responsible to man. Instead of getting 6 rigs out with 15 people among the 6 rigs, they now would have 15 on 2 rigs. Nice size crews in any system.

On the other hand if an area involving 2 or 3 departments has a problem then have a paid person or 2 on duty to work with the volunteers. Regionalizing and consoildating smalle departments/companies does not automaticaly mean going paid.

You're confusing consolidation with converting to paid personnel. That's apples and oranges. I'm advocating consolidating. The need to consider paid personnel would be done after this was assessed.

You can study things until the trucks rust and current FF's are all in the FF Home and nothing will change. Someone has to DO something and nobody is willing or able to step up.

I suggest that a lot of the research you're talking about has already been done and simple consolidations at the town level (instead of 9 FD's in a town, go to one) would be a great start, save money and make more FF available for calls.

[Dinosaur 844]

Does this number include Yonkers, White Plains and New Rochelle? I would think any major consolidation would not include these departments. I would think these departments are big enough and busy enough to co-exist outside of a major consolidation plan no?

How about just starting with the Town of Greenburgh's 9 departments or Mount Pleasants 6-7 departments or the Sound Shore's departments? That would be a start.

On the career side, how about implementing that study that called for the regionalization of Mount Vernon, New Rochelle, Pelham, Pelham Manor, Eastchester, Mamaroneck, Larchmont and Scarsdale? Personally I think White Plains should be included as the big city on the north side of that area but whatever.

Start somewhere! It doesn't have to be "major". It just has to happen.

[TFD141@aol.com 26]

I disagree on the consolidation, especially as it pertains to volunteer FD's. Each volunteer FD manning has it's ups and downs in cycles. Automatic Mutual aid helps to smooth out the bumps when one Fd is having a "bump in the road time" but is not intended to be permanent. Temporary fixes may last years as it takes that long to train and re-build the forces. However, I know two things I can speak of as a volunteer. The first paid person walks through the door, is my last day volunteering at that FD and many of my comrades have said the same thing. So we won't hire period. The second is my FD runs on a little more than $600k. That wouldn't pay for 4 paid positions with all of the extras that come with paying someone and a union. And my districts tax ratables could not cover a large increase without forcng people to reconsider living in my town. By consolidating you lose your identiy, and identity creates pride. Pride is your paycheck in the volunteer service. I don't see a problem with having 5 pieces of apparatus in my little volunteer FD plus 3chiefs cars being we only spend $600k a year which is about 1% of our overall school/county/town tax bill (my fire district tax is around $100-200 annually or about 1% of my tax bill). So I say the volunteers are a 1% solution to taxes. No way can you go career without rapidly transitioning to mostly or totally career. Not to say it can't work, but, and thats a big but...it is usually very painful relationships. Not worth it to volunteer once paid are brought on, as it changes most everything. Eventually paid will insist to the powers to be, to put a paid chief on board. And it usually is the paid chief/paid members looks down at volunteers as not worthy. So its a long painful road to fully paid FD. And consolidating several FDs can be done easier with automatic MA. Rather than combine and create a faceless mega FD, you work at smaller chunks and levels to fix problems, such as you send one piece of apparatus, say and engine with 2 guys and I will send an engine with 2 guys and we have one engine company manning. And so on and so forth filling out the entire assignment. Many lightly manned career FD sdo it that way. is it the best, no absolutely not. i just wish more people would volunteer or we could raise more $$ to hire. I say either go career paid fully or stay volunteer and work it out. I also notice many paid commenters on here already don't like the county. they (commenters) want a larger FD but want control and not give it to the county. Don't you usuallly say in the larger combined FDs such as in Maryland arn't they usually county?? We all live in an imperfect society in an imperfect world. Volunteers will exist and paid will exist. that will change with the number of calls...once a volunteer FD is called so many times you burn everyone out, they transition to career. Then you move...becuase not many like being in an area of congestion and all the other stuff that comes with it. And so it goes around and around...cities were dying, and now some are starting to be reborn, while others are just beginning the dying off process...give me the small town living and let me keep it 100% volunteer...BTW, I was second on the list back in 1974 in a large FD, and then the layoffs and court actions and affirmative whatever began....and I have family and very close friends that are career...I respect the individual all of them regardless of whether or not they are volunteer or career or both at one time or another. So again I say the volunteer FD will be around long after we are all gone. It will go career when the changes occur in that area, nothing any union leader or other will change that much...so if you live in a volunteer town then join and help out while we are here on earth, make a difference. Do it because it is right and the American way. And...once it becomes career..leave or get that paid position...but let's work together until then...if we did...the fire service would be inherently stronger then now as we are divided. I know the NYS laws well being on the legislative & law committee for 20 years as one of the commissioners. I know ISO and our rating is one point from being moved from a 4 to a 3. With a little more work we could go further. We meet the NFPA/OSHA regulations. Do we hiccup once in awhile, absolutely, but can anyone here say that doesn't happen in their FD? Did we look at career manning, we did and we studied the time and manpower issues. I also check our tax bill and ratables and zoning laws. Sorry, but volunteer FD's work. All fires are put out, no one isn't rescued or attempted to rescued. Maybe at times it isn't pretty, but it works.

[thebreeze 194]

Saying that we should use mutual aid for "years", while we rebuild out service isn't a fix, not even a temporary one, because the way you explain it its a cycle and will just occur again. Not to mention it would be like waiting in the ER for eight hours with a broken arm, the doctor coming in and putting a bandaid on the wrong arm and saying come back in a few months.

As far as saying you'd quit once a paid guy walks through the door, I think that's a pretty defeatist attitude, like saying you're the only one who can play in the sandbox. There are multiple instances of departments that work well as a combination department. Sure there's growing pains, but at least you're GROWING, not sitting doing nothing about a problem. If you're worried about being looked down on by career staff, maybe it should just be incentive to train harder and show yourselves as an indispensable aspect of that department. Cry and whine and walk out the door, well I don't think anyone's gonna bat an eye worrying about losing those guys. If you're there to do the right thing you'd do it in whatever fashion is best for the community, not just what you want. Money spent isn't everything, you need to look at the service received side of the equation. It's like why the low bid system sucks. If I showed up to your town and said I could give you an FD for 300k a year should the town drop you and take me? Or should they decide not what's cheapest, but what's the best VALUE.

Saying that we should use mutual aid for "years", while we rebuild out service isn't a fix, not even a temporary one, because the way you explain it its a cycle and will just occur again. Not to mention it would be like waiting in the ER for eight hours with a broken arm, the doctor coming in and putting a bandaid on the wrong arm and saying come back in a few months.

As far as saying you'd quit once a paid guy walks through the door, I think that's a pretty defeatist attitude, like saying you're the only one who can play in the sandbox. There are multiple instances of departments that work well as a combination department. Sure there's growing pains, but at least you're GROWING, not sitting doing nothing about a problem. If you're worried about being looked down on by career staff, maybe it should just be incentive to train harder and show yourselves as an indispensable aspect of that department. Cry and whine and walk out the door, well I don't think anyone's gonna bat an eye worrying about losing those guys. If you're there to do the right thing you'd do it in whatever fashion is best for the community, not just what you want. Money spent isn't everything, you need to look at the service received side of the equation. It's like why the low bid system sucks. If I showed up to your town and said I could give you an FD for 300k a year should the town drop you and take me? Or should they decide not what's cheapest, but what's the best VALUE?

[spin_the_wheel 460]

One thing should be considered by those departments that cant muster a crew. Is it they cannot muster a crew because honestly there is no one around to respond due to work schedules....or is it because members are "blowing" off alarms. Be honest this happens.

After you do a truthful study of your response paterns make sure everyone in your department "buys into" your plan for the future. This is a must.

Duty crew systems can work were crews know its their responsibility to cover a certain time period responding from home. Or go to an in house crew system and eliminate the home response model. It's easier for some volunteers to plan their time around a set schedule. Maybe they cant commit to giving you 30% of alarms each month but can commit to giving you 40 hours a month in the form of scheduled shift work standing by in the firehouse.

if your one of these departments its up to the chiefs to figure this stuff out.

[spin_the_wheel 460]

You're confusing consolidation with converting to paid personnel. That's apples and oranges. I'm advocating consolidating. The need to consider paid personnel would be done after this was assessed.

You can study things until the trucks rust and current FF's are all in the FF Home and nothing will change. Someone has to DO something and nobody is willing or able to step up.

I suggest that a lot of the research you're talking about has already been done and simple consolidations at the town level (instead of 9 FD's in a town, go to one) would be a great start, save money and make more FF available for calls.

I agree with you. I did not know there were studies done. I do agree many think consolidation means paid. There are other things to try before you go down this road.

[Dinosaur 844]

I disagree on the consolidation, especially as it pertains to volunteer FD's. Each volunteer FD manning has it's ups and downs in cycles. Automatic Mutual aid helps to smooth out the bumps when one Fd is having a "bump in the road time" but is not intended to be permanent. Temporary fixes may last years as it takes that long to train and re-build the forces.

However, I know two things I can speak of as a volunteer. The first paid person walks through the door, is my last day volunteering at that FD and many of my comrades have said the same thing. So we won't hire period. The second is my FD runs on a little more than $600k. That wouldn't pay for 4 paid positions with all of the extras that come with paying someone and a union. And my districts tax ratables could not cover a large increase without forcng people to reconsider living in my town.

By consolidating you lose your identiy, and identity creates pride. Pride is your paycheck in the volunteer service.

I don't see a problem with having 5 pieces of apparatus in my little volunteer FD plus 3chiefs cars being we only spend $600k a year which is about 1% of our overall school/county/town tax bill (my fire district tax is around $100-200 annually or about 1% of my tax bill). So I say the volunteers are a 1% solution to taxes. No way can you go career without rapidly transitioning to mostly or totally career. Not to say it can't work, but, and thats a big but...it is usually very painful relationships. Not worth it to volunteer once paid are brought on, as it changes most everything. Eventually paid will insist to the powers to be, to put a paid chief on board. And it usually is the paid chief/paid members looks down at volunteers as not worthy. So its a long painful road to fully paid FD.

And consolidating several FDs can be done easier with automatic MA. Rather than combine and create a faceless mega FD, you work at smaller chunks and levels to fix problems, such as you send one piece of apparatus, say and engine with 2 guys and I will send an engine with 2 guys and we have one engine company manning. And so on and so forth filling out the entire assignment. Many lightly manned career FD sdo it that way. is it the best, no absolutely not. i just wish more people would volunteer or we could raise more $$ to hire. I say either go career paid fully or stay volunteer and work it out. I also notice many paid commenters on here already don't like the county. they (commenters) want a larger FD but want control and not give it to the county. Don't you usuallly say in the larger combined FDs such as in Maryland arn't they usually county?? We all live in an imperfect society in an imperfect world.

Some volunteer FD's have just hit a bump in the road but many have been in this downward cycle for years and it is not getting any better. When do you decide enough is enough.

Your anti-paid position is clear enough and that's fine but don't misunderstand me. Consolidation doesn't mean paid and it doesn't mean a loss of pride or a "mega FD" as you describe it. Don't you think there is pride in the companies of the FDNY or large regional departments (that are combination by the way) in MD or VA? There's tons of pride and individual company patches to promote it. Pride is what you make it, it's not a paycheck and it exists in lots of places.

Of course you don't see the problem with your little FD having 5 pieces of apparatus and 3 chiefs cars and a budget of 600K. You're looking at this whole thing through a paper towel tube. Drop the blinders and look at the big picture. Let's say there are nine departments like yours in your town. That's 45 pieces of apparatus, 27 chiefs cars, and a 4.5 million dollar budget for the same call volume and population. Let's say we wave the magic wand and consolidate into a single town sized department. We no longer need 45 pieces of apparatus (savings), we no longer need 27 chiefs cars (savings), we no longer need 9 different insurance policies and various contracts (savings), and our pool of available FF is bigger so call coverage improves. All this and we do it for less money. With the possible exception of an administrator (non-operations), you don't hire anyone. Now you get the 2 guys from two "stations" staffing an engine together and they have the same training, same policies, and same equipment. Wow, imagine that.

Automatic mutual aid is not a solution. It's a temporary fix that we've been trying for decades in some places. Einstein said that the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result. Couldn't be more true than in the fire service where we're often proud to say "150 years of tradition unimpeded by progress". We have these discussions all the time because some story comes up about how screwed up we are but we never get to the root of the problem and actually fix anything.

As for the taxes your little department spends being only 1% of the overall tax bill, that's may be true. In other places it may be 5%. Whatever. You have to recognize though that it is one of the budgets that local government can change and the tide is shifting in that direction. They're going to see that they need to cut taxes somewhere to get reelected and they have no control over the school or the county so they're going to go after the local budget and eventually YOUR budget. Look at what has gone on with Westchester County. Astorino came in and promised to cut taxes but found that he only controls a small portion of it. So it gutted it, cut it to the bone, and proclaimed he was saving us money. Now the weeds on the Bronx River Parkway are higher than a corn field and there are fewer county employees doing essential jobs than ever before. But he can campaign on cutting taxes.

We live in glass houses. Paid or volunteer we are under a microscope right now and we have to be smart enough to show that we know it.

[Dinosaur 844]

One thing should be considered by those departments that cant muster a crew. Is it they cannot muster a crew because honestly there is no one around to respond due to work schedules....or is it because members are "blowing" off alarms. Be honest this happens.

After you do a truthful study of your response paterns make sure everyone in your department "buys into" your plan for the future. This is a must.

Duty crew systems can work were crews know its their responsibility to cover a certain time period responding from home. Or go to an in house crew system and eliminate the home response model. It's easier for some volunteers to plan their time around a set schedule. Maybe they cant commit to giving you 30% of alarms each month but can commit to giving you 40 hours a month in the form of scheduled shift work standing by in the firehouse.

if your one of these departments its up to the chiefs to figure this stuff out.

Unfortunately in most cases the Chief's have their hands full just keeping the department going and they're not trained, equipped, or interested in tackling systemic problems when they have their own little local problems to contend with.

[spin_the_wheel 460]

Unfortunately in most cases the Chief's have their hands full just keeping the department going and they're not trained, equipped, or interested in tackling systemic problems when they have their own little local problems to contend with.

There is no bigger problem facing you as a Chief then your response to alarms. If the Chief cannot handle this then he should not be in the position or he should get bounced next time elections are held period.

[thebreeze 194]

There is no bigger problem facing you as a Chief then your response to alarms. If the Chief cannot handle this then he should not be in the position or he should get bounced next time elections are held period.

While this is true, sometimes it's an impossible task. You can tell your members whatever you want, but you can't force them to come out for a call. Most of the time if a chief stands up and berates the membership about poor turnout or coverage the only people who take it to heart are the ones already breaking their asses and showing up to almost every alarm. The other crowd of do-nothing's will nod their heads and say yeah ok, I've been here ten-twenty-thirty years, not my problem anymore. Maybe you'll shame a few guys into stepping it up for a few weeks, but that's about it. Meanwhile the guys who were already shouldering all the burden are now puahing harder and burning themselves out.

As far as elections go, I've rarely seen one where people were actually concerned with the issues facing the department as opposed to a popularity contest, or a shuffling around of current officers, or just a ladder that everyone climbs moving from one office to the next until they did the whole circuit and then can go rest on their laurels. I've never seen someone get up there and campaign and say once I'm chief everyone will be required to pull their weight, the dead wood will be cut, and all alarms will be answered in a timely fashion with a full crew. You'd get laughed at. It's time for departments to start looking outside of their own four walls for solutions.

Edited August 20, 2013 by thebreeze

[CarmelFD829 0]

In Putnam for ems after 5 mins the 2 closest agencies are dispatched and for fire after 10 mins with no response the closest agency gets toned out.

[Bnechis 3,961]

In Putnam for ems after 5 mins the 2 closest agencies are dispatched and for fire after 10 mins with no response the closest agency gets toned out.

So I see a 2 cubic foot wastepaper basket on fire, I dial 911, they process the call and tone out the local department in 1 min. At the 10 minute mark (based on the fire propagation curve) the fire has grown to 4,096 cubic feet (a 20 x 25 room) and still no one has responded.

We retone another dept. again 1 minute and they get on the road in 2 minutes. The drive from there district to the scene is 5 minutes. The fire is now consumed a 130,000 square foot structure. (approx: 500 ft x 260 ft).

If your wait is that long the incident is already over.