60 Control's Policy on No Responses

[JM15 386]

Another thread got me thinking. Is there a set policy at 60 Control in the event they dispatch a call and there is no response? Lets say they dispatch a FD for a car fire, and no units from that FD sign on.... What happens? Is it agency specific or does the county have some sort of policy?

[ems-buff 81]

I would love to see EMS Agenies who don't get out get automatic mutual aid. No more of this 3 tone outs. (4 if you count the initial dispatch) I think it's crazy that there are 20min respond times for an ambulance in this county. Some of which only respond with a driver only, with no EMT/first responder. What happens if that unit is flag down on the way to the job he was dispatched to?

[v85 212]

Orange County's policy is that if an EMS agency or fire department misses a call, for the remainder of the twelve hour period (6A-6P) or (6P-6A), the mutual aid agency is toned out at initial dispatch

Maybe Westchester should adopt something similar

[Bnechis 3,961]

Another thread got me thinking. Is there a set policy at 60 Control in the event they dispatch a call and there is no response? Lets say they dispatch a FD for a car fire, and no units from that FD sign on.... What happens? Is it agency specific or does the county have some sort of policy?

A few years back I was working on the EMS mutual aid plan with 60 Control leadership and the policy as I understood it was they can not call for another dept. for no response unless the original agency authorized it (in writing) before the fact. The reason was based on general municipal law andliability on mutual aid.

If Dept. A requests mutual aid and the dept responding crashes or has building fall on them, etc. the liability is clearly in GML that the requesting dept is responsable for the rig/equipment but the giving dept is responsable for the injury/disability/death.

If 60 control dispatches Dept. X to Dept. A's incident (with no pre-authorization or active request) and dept X crashes, who is responsible Dept A that never made the request or 60control that did.

I do not know if this is still the policy, but it does make sense in light of that legal concerns.

[Bnechis 3,961]

Orange County's policy is that if an EMS agency or fire department misses a call, for the remainder of the twelve hour period (6A-6P) or (6P-6A), the mutual aid agency is toned out at initial dispatch

Maybe Westchester should adopt something similar

So the taxpayers of one community have to support the taxpayers of another?

Very little reason for the dept to fix there problem other than pride (if they still have any)

[JM15 386]

Bnechis I understand what your saying. But lets say your a dispatcher at 60 Control. You get a phone call reporting a fire. You dispatch the appropriate FD (Lets call them Dept X) after lets say 5 minutes you dont hear anything from anyone in Dept. X what do you do? Do you keep re-toning Dept X or do you dispatch the next closest (Dept Y)? I was just curious if there was a written policy, who made it, and what does it say.

[Rex_RescuePC 9]

Found this after a bit of research:

http://emergencyservices.westchestergov.com/images/stories/pdfs/FireMutualAidPlanAdopted12%2019%202012FINAL.pdf

Seems to cover a bit of the questions asked judging by the table of contents, didnt have time to look through it all.

This area of it caught my eye though..

VII. Participation

Each Fire Agency participating in this Plan (“Participants”) shall make a good faith effort to

respond to each call for assistance received from The Westchester County Emergency

Communications Center a/k/a “60 Control” (“60 Control”).

All requests for Mutual Aid must be coordinated through the County’s 60 Control.

Unless there are extenuating circumstances, requests for Mutual Aid should not be made

directly from one Fire Agency to another. It is recognized, however, that circumstances may

require a Fire Agency to make a Mutual Aid request directly to another Fire Agency. In those

situations 60 Control shall be notified as soon as possible of such a request and provide all

information to 60 Control required as if it were a request placed with 60 Control for Mutual

Aid.

A Fire Agency may decline to respond to a request based on unit unavailability.

A Plan Participant may deem certain apparatus unavailable for Mutual Aid response. In such

instances, prior written notification of that restriction must be made to 60 Control when

becoming a Plan Participant. (For example, a Fire Agency may have special equipment that is

restricted to the jurisdiction, e.g. aerial ladder, heavy rescue equipment or equipment that has

highway clearance, weight or distance limitations, etc.)

A Plan Participant providing Mutual Aid to a requesting Fire Agency shall commit its

equipment and manpower to the requesting Fire Agency until released by the Incident

Commander.

Further, it is agreed and understood that during Mutual Aid events:

• The Incident Commander of the requesting Fire Agency retains command of all fire

resources assigned to the event until such time as command is transferred or

terminated.

• A Fire Agency requesting Mutual Aid to stand by in its headquarters/stations shall

provide at least one firefighter at each station to facilitate station access and to serve

as a guide for subsequent alarms in a requesting department’s jurisdiction.

• It is the obligation of the Incident Commander to release Fire Agencies providing

Mutual Aid as promptly as possible.

[Dinosaur 844]

Found this after a bit of research:

http://emergencyservices.westchestergov.com/images/stories/pdfs/FireMutualAidPlanAdopted12%2019%202012FINAL.pdf

Seems to cover a bit of the questions asked judging by the table of contents, didnt have time to look through it all.

This area of it caught my eye though..

That's for mutual aid. It doesn't cover what to do when the agency having jurisdiction doesn't answer the phone when you call 'em!

[MPG1 48]

Since this is my first day of retirement after 20 years @ 60 let me tell you our protocols. EMS dispatch: no answer dispatch again 3 min later. No answer after 2 more min. dispatch again and dispatch mutual aid. Fire: after initial dispatch if no answer after 5 min. dispatch again. If no answer (and it has happened) dispatch again and dispatch mutual aid. Mutual aid run cards have been set up by both ems and fire agencies for their districts. Barry I understand what your saying if dept. x crashes, but what if I don't send anybody to the call in a TIMELY manor! The cad prompts us on all re-dispatchs. The buck does not stop @ 60 Control. It is up to each department whether volunteer or career to cover your calls. The cad will prompt us for the city of New Rochelle or Bedford EMS in the same manor. We run with NYS DOH protocols for ems and NFPA for fire. If you can't cover your call's start thinking about joining forces with your neighbor who is covering the call! Thanx for all you do and please stay safe!

[dashield 61]

Orange County's policy is that if an EMS agency or fire department misses a call, for the remainder of the twelve hour period (6A-6P) or (6P-6A), the mutual aid agency is toned out at initial dispatch

Maybe Westchester should adopt something similar

You are absolutely incorrect on your statement as far as it pertaining to Fire Depts. Though I believe what you mentioned is a great idea there is no policy. I am sure if you listen during the week you will hear the same departments not get out time and time again.

[Bnechis 3,961]

Thanks Marty and congrats.

My points were debated very heavily at the time and what I stated was the issue. If a dept has filled out the card, then in theory they have given permission to send the next due.

[x4093k 654]

Since this is my first day of retirement after 20 years @ 60 let me tell you our protocols. EMS dispatch: no answer dispatch again 3 min later. No answer after 2 more min. dispatch again and dispatch mutual aid. Fire: after initial dispatch if no answer after 5 min. dispatch again. If no answer (and it has happened) dispatch again and dispatch mutual aid. Mutual aid run cards have been set up by both ems and fire agencies for their districts. Barry I understand what your saying if dept. x crashes, but what if I don't send anybody to the call in a TIMELY manor! The cad prompts us on all re-dispatchs. The buck does not stop @ 60 Control. It is up to each department whether volunteer or career to cover your calls. The cad will prompt us for the city of New Rochelle or Bedford EMS in the same manor. We run with NYS DOH protocols for ems and NFPA for fire. If you can't cover your call's start thinking about joining forces with your neighbor who is covering the call! Thanx for all you do and please stay safe!

Enjoy retirement Marty! thanks for all the information!!

Edited August 15, 2013 by x4093k

[WstPrideEng92 3]

Since this is my first day of retirement after 20 years @ 60 let me tell you our protocols. EMS dispatch: no answer dispatch again 3 min later. No answer after 2 more min. dispatch again and dispatch mutual aid. Fire: after initial dispatch if no answer after 5 min. dispatch again. If no answer (and it has happened) dispatch again and dispatch mutual aid. Mutual aid run cards have been set up by both ems and fire agencies for their districts. Barry I understand what your saying if dept. x crashes, but what if I don't send anybody to the call in a TIMELY manor! The cad prompts us on all re-dispatchs. The buck does not stop @ 60 Control. It is up to each department whether volunteer or career to cover your calls. The cad will prompt us for the city of New Rochelle or Bedford EMS in the same manor. We run with NYS DOH protocols for ems and NFPA for fire. If you can't cover your call's start thinking about joining forces with your neighbor who is covering the call! Thanx for all you do and please stay safe!

WOW Congrats Marty gotta be a good feeling. And thank you for all you do...

[Morningjoe 162]

Just this morning, there was a department that got requested for another that couldn't get out for a residential alarm.

What could the potential liability be for a department that fails to respond to a fire, or one that responds to a fire with only drivers or exterior members only?

[mllax14 18]

Personally i think part of the problem is with the terminology commonly used Such as "mutual aid" which I feel is used to mask the problem that plagues our area.

From what I was originally taught and understood was that "mutual aid" meant 1) you needed additional resources such as manpower, or additional apparatus to assist you at the scene. 2) you need a specific reasource that you or another agency/department don't not have 3) you are already committed to a incident or whatever and need "mutual aid" to handle an additional call while you operate at your initial incident.

But, what I see "mutual aid" used for around here is a loophole to cover up the all but true actuality of what many have pointed out here that calls are going unanswered. I would like to see is the term (FTR) "Failure To Respond" used which would keep agency's/ departments more accountable for their inability to perform their primarily function and respond to emergencies within the acceptable standard. If that were actually used the facts would be presented front and center to the public and state that there is a problem and it needs to be addressed. Otherwise it just seems like this problem will continue to fly under the radar and put the public and first responders In danger.

Just my 2 cents.

[Westchester 49]

Since this is my first day of retirement after 20 years @ 60 let me tell you our protocols. EMS dispatch: no answer dispatch again 3 min later. No answer after 2 more min. dispatch again and dispatch mutual aid. Fire: after initial dispatch if no answer after 5 min. dispatch again. If no answer (and it has happened) dispatch again and dispatch mutual aid. Mutual aid run cards have been set up by both ems and fire agencies for their districts. Barry I understand what your saying if dept. x crashes, but what if I don't send anybody to the call in a TIMELY manor! The cad prompts us on all re-dispatchs. The buck does not stop @ 60 Control. It is up to each department whether volunteer or career to cover your calls. The cad will prompt us for the city of New Rochelle or Bedford EMS in the same manor. We run with NYS DOH protocols for ems and NFPA for fire. If you can't cover your call's start thinking about joining forces with your neighbor who is covering the call! Thanx for all you do and please stay safe!

"EMS dispatch: no answer dispatch again 3 min later. No answer after 2 more min. dispatch again and dispatch mutual aid."

Cardic Arrest = DEAD

anaphylactic shock =Dead

Stroke=DEAD

ETC, ETC

You know as well as any Emergency Service Paid or Volunteer time is always against us. If Police or 60 Control continues to page out and then go to mutual aide GAME OVER!!!!!!

[Bnechis 3,961]

"EMS dispatch: no answer dispatch again 3 min later. No answer after 2 more min. dispatch again and dispatch mutual aid."

Cardic Arrest = DEAD

anaphylactic shock =Dead

Stroke=DEAD

ETC, ETC

You know as well as any Emergency Service Paid or Volunteer time is always against us. If Police or 60 Control continues to page out and then go to mutual aide GAME OVER!!!!!!

There is a term for this, it is called: "Thinning the Herd"

In the past we had wars & famine & plauge....today we have "failure to respond".

[Westchester 49]

There is a term for this, it is called: "Thinning the Herd"

In the past we had wars & famine & plauge....today we have "failure to respond".

How right you are, but is it failure to respond due to lack of Volunteers in the Emergency Services,or when the pager goes off Volunteers are unwilling to respond due to the nature of the call and time. Even in the paid service the man/women power is thin. I guess were banging or heads for nothing!

[ff421 0]

I know in Putnam county it is part of the Mutual aid agreement that each signs. Each department can make specific mutual agreements with their neighboring depts. The agencies are not requiered to sign, but part of the agreement with the county includes dispatch privelages so.... they usually sign it. So all autmomatic dispatches to cover an unaswered call are covered under the mutual plan.

[x635 4,066]

If there is a policy, what action is taken for violating the policy? And additional violations?

[Westchester 49]

If there is a policy, what action is taken for violating the policy? And additional violations?

Finally the right question to ask! Bravo. Your so right! There are mutual aid policies but villages are using them for the wrong reasons. Mutual aid is for departments that are involved in a Emergency call where either that need asistance or there responding to or at another job. But instead mutual aid is being used because crews aren't getting out or they don't have enough personel.

[Remember585 815]

Finally the right question to ask! Bravo. Your so right! There are mutual aid policies but villages are using them for the wrong reasons. Mutual aid is for departments that are involved in a Emergency call where either that need asistance or there responding to or at another job. But instead mutual aid is being used because crews aren't getting out or they don't have enough personel.

Playing Devil's Advocate here... If we are part of a department that has signed a Mutual Aid Agreement, are we not obligated to answer any request for help (provided we have the manpower / equipment to do so)?

Many departments have Automatic Aid in place or Dual-Responses for a special / additional piece of equipment or because the incident falls in two jurisdictions. For these, I don't see an issue. But the departments that call upon another department for the routine runs because they can't get out on a regular basis - that's abuse of the system.

Eventually, we're all going to be running more calls than ever - and that will be because we are always going out of town. At some point, the bean counters are going to say "WTF" and it may all change for the worse.

[spin_the_wheel 460]

This is a failure that the volunteer fire service has come to accept. If a rig responding to an alarm gets into an accident, this leads to a delay in getting this particular rig to the fire. A failure of sorts. The Chauffeur probably will have his driving privileges taken away for some amount of time. maybe re training will take place. However a failure, WHICH someone will take the responsibility for and a corrective measure will take place to try and make this not happen again.

While stretching a line there is a substantial delay in getting the line charged. The hydrant man did a butcher job hitting the hydrant, screwed it all up, leading to a big delay. A failure and a fire ground embarrassment witnessed by many. The person involved after getting their balls broke to no end will go back to training and learning what they did wrong and hopefully it will never happen again. Again someone is held accountable for the failure.

Your dispatcher types in the wrong address into the CAD system for whatever reason. Mistakes happen they are human to. This leads to a 6 minute delay before the correct address can be figured out. Luckily it's nothing serious. A failure none the less. The Chiefs will complain to whomever they need to and a letter will be written. It will be put in the dispatchers file and some re training will take place. End result someone is held responsible and the mistake-failure is expected not to repeat itself anytime soon.

Someone is held accountable in all these situations.

BUT the failure to cover alarms for some reason-Chiefs have become immune to. If you are a Chief of a department with this problem you are the one who is held accountable for these failures. Just as you would be quick to find out who was responsible for the above scenarios occurring you must also look at what is responsible for the failure to cover your alarms. And the solutions lay on your shoulders as well. Are you a department that accepts failure?

[antiquefirelt 994]

I would think that any cooperative dispatch center would require participating departments fill out run cards and give explicit permission to allow dispatchers to get companies to all calls in a timely manner. Require they comply or not be serviced. Dispatchers and centers should not be forced to deal with the consequences even in the short time (the callers) of a FD or EMS agency's failure to respond within preset time frames. While it may be the municipal entities liability to provide the service, the dispatchers are the ones left holding the bag when a call goes unanswered or excessively slowly answered.

[dave0820 50]

I understand in Westchester county there are lots of small towns and villages with individual volunteer fire departments mixed in with a few bigger citys, Westchester is one of the richest countys in NY and in the US. I don't understand why with all the taxes collected in Westchester there are situations where it takes several calls to get a crew out, Fire or EMS. The citizens deserve a response in a reasonable time. Other areas in the country do it with a lot less tax revenue. I understand the pride that some of these very old volunteer Departments have, but pride isn't putting out the fires or getting people to the hospital quick enough to save their life. I think it might be time for some major changes in Westchester. I don't know what the answer is, but someone should be trying to fix this problem. I know where I live (and my property taes are about 75% less then they were when I lived in Westchester) if my house is on fire any time of the day or night with in 5 Mins there will be a pumper, a quint and a rescue truck here with full crews on each. Just saying.

[ex-commish 490]

Since this is my first day of retirement after 20 years @ 60 let me tell you our protocols. EMS dispatch: no answer dispatch again 3 min later. No answer after 2 more min. dispatch again and dispatch mutual aid. Fire: after initial dispatch if no answer after 5 min. dispatch again. If no answer (and it has happened) dispatch again and dispatch mutual aid. Mutual aid run cards have been set up by both ems and fire agencies for their districts. Barry I understand what your saying if dept. x crashes, but what if I don't send anybody to the call in a TIMELY manor! The cad prompts us on all re-dispatchs. The buck does not stop @ 60 Control. It is up to each department whether volunteer or career to cover your calls. The cad will prompt us for the city of New Rochelle or Bedford EMS in the same manor. We run with NYS DOH protocols for ems and NFPA for fire. If you can't cover your call's start thinking about joining forces with your neighbor who is covering the call! Thanx for all you do and please stay safe!

Welcome to the retirement club Marty....enjoy many years of good health

[antiquefirelt 994]

I understand the pride that some of these very old volunteer Departments have, but pride isn't putting out the fires or getting people to the hospital quick enough to save their life.

I would question how much pride can be left in a department or EMS service that allows another to handle it calls for lack of response. Wearing t-shirts or displaying stickers with slogans isn't a measure of pride.

Edited August 17, 2013 by antiquefirelt

[Westchester 49]

I understand in Westchester county there are lots of small towns and villages with individual volunteer fire departments mixed in with a few bigger citys, Westchester is one of the richest countys in NY and in the US. I don't understand why with all the taxes collected in Westchester there are situations where it takes several calls to get a crew out, Fire or EMS. The citizens deserve a response in a reasonable time. Other areas in the country do it with a lot less tax revenue. I understand the pride that some of these very old volunteer Departments have, but pride isn't putting out the fires or getting people to the hospital quick enough to save their life. I think it might be time for some major changes in Westchester. I don't know what the answer is, but someone should be trying to fix this problem. I know where I live (and my property taes are about 75% less then they were when I lived in Westchester) if my house is on fire any time of the day or night with in 5 Mins there will be a pumper, a quint and a rescue truck here with full crews on each. Just saying.

your right on target. Resident of these villages don't realize that their property taxes are high is due to the School Tax Bill. School Taxes are about 75-80% of our total property tax. Village taxes are not that bad considering the service we get. If paid Fire oe EMS was to go into a village, Yes it will increase Village or Town tax, but there are ways to cut other things to have a paid service. I'm a Volunteer and I would hate to see a Paid service come into my village, but I also don't want to see some die do to response time.

[gamewell45 258]

your right on target. Resident of these villages don't realize that their property taxes are high is due to the School Tax Bill. School Taxes are about 75-80% of our total property tax. Village taxes are not that bad considering the service we get. If paid Fire oe EMS was to go into a village, Yes it will increase Village or Town tax, but there are ways to cut other things to have a paid service. I'm a Volunteer and I would hate to see a Paid service come into my village, but I also don't want to see some die do to response time.

It all comes down to how much of a tax burden the taxpayers are willing to shoulder. With increasing school taxes and depending on what services your town, villiage or city provides most people aren't going to be too receptive to replacing volunteers (both fire and ems) with paid personnel until it has a direct impact on them. That, combined with a poor economy we are currently suffering under will make it an even tougher concept to sell to the taxpayers. Cutting budgets in other areas will most likely cause numerous issues since most departments are operating under reduced budgets and it all comes down to a turf war.

As has been mentioned in here on numerous occasions, a county-wide fire department would be a very viable option, however from what I've read, NY state laws prohibit this and the only way to its ever going to happen would be to change the laws. Good luck with that; the state assembly and senate can barely agree on what day it is, so until they are reigned in, its unlikely that anything is going to happen any time soon.

In the meantime, the career/EMS departments are going to have to wait and hope clearer heads prevail when putting together budgets that include increasing staff. The volunteer fire companys/EMS services will have to increase recruitment/retention efforts, offer and encourage as much training as possible and impress upon them the importance of their services to the community.

There is no simple answer at this point given the state of the economy; one can just wait for better financial times and work to do the best with what you have.

Just my 2 cents.

[dave0820 50]

It all comes down to how much of a tax burden the taxpayers are willing to shoulder. With increasing school taxes and depending on what services your town, villiage or city provides most people aren't going to be too receptive to replacing volunteers (both fire and ems) with paid personnel until it has a direct impact on them. That, combined with a poor economy we are currently suffering under will make it an even tougher concept to sell to the taxpayers. Cutting budgets in other areas will most likely cause numerous issues since most departments are operating under reduced budgets and it all comes down to a turf war.

As has been mentioned in here on numerous occasions, a county-wide fire department would be a very viable option, however from what I've read, NY state laws prohibit this and the only way to its ever going to happen would be to change the laws. Good luck with that; the state assembly and senate can barely agree on what day it is, so until they are reigned in, its unlikely that anything is going to happen any time soon.

In the meantime, the career/EMS departments are going to have to wait and hope clearer heads prevail when putting together budgets that include increasing staff. The volunteer fire companys/EMS services will have to increase recruitment/retention efforts, offer and encourage as much training as possible and impress upon them the importance of their services to the community.

There is no simple answer at this point given the state of the economy; one can just wait for better financial times and work to do the best with what you have.

Just my 2 cents.

Very well said and I agree with you. I no longer live in Westchester, but what I wonder is, why is it so hard to change whatever law it is that prevents a county wide fire service. Other states do it with much lower taxes. I think a county wide fire department would help. The volunteer companies could support the county fire fighters, but at least an engine would be able to respond quickly. In citys where there is already a career department in place there would be no need for county firefighters. I agree this is a long way out, but someone should be at least getting a plan in gear.