The FAST Fad-What Happened?

[x635 4,066]

It seems, at one time, that having a FAST team was a big "fad" in Westchester, and everyone had to have one. And were very proud of it. Now, it seems, that time has passed.

Why not train all members in basic training FAST operations? In theory, it really isn't that much more then search and rescue and other techniques taught in the class.

It's not all about equipment.

(Cartoon by Paul Combs)

[PoqFFEMT 6]

Seth,

Here in Virginia we break it down a little further. In FF 1/2 the trainee receives Mayday awareness. Once you complete you FF 1/2 you can go on to the Mayday operations level and then RIT (Rescue Intervention Techniques) courses. These two are much more hands on and scenario based training that is better left to the person that has been around a little bit and can understand some more advanced theory.

I'm not saying either way is right or wrong. I've done training in NY and Virginia now and I will say they are just different. I will also say that since I've been doing (and teaching) a while I feel the additional courses after the basic FF 1/2 classes seems to help out with the better understanding of search and rescue.

[Bnechis 3,961]

The real issue is many Westchester Fire Departments do not believe they have the training, skills, equipment, manpower or leadership to rescue one of there own members or the members of another department.

Its criminal that any engine, ladder or rescue can not arrive on sceen and be assigned to be FAST.

Just another reason we need to reduce the number of depts.

"If you are not part of the solution, you are part of the problem"

[DannyB119 2]

The real issue is many Westchester Fire Departments do not believe they have the training, skills, equipment, manpower or leadership to rescue one of there own members or the members of another department.

Its criminal that any engine, ladder or rescue can not arrive on sceen and be assigned to be FAST.

Just another reason we need to reduce the number of depts.

"If you are not part of the solution, you are part of the problem"

"Many" is pretty vague. Which ones in particular seem to feel that way? What makes them feel that way? If that's the way they feel, then why not train some more? As has been previously stated in another thread, Westchester is one of the highest taxed counties in the entire State, and I know from direct, firsthand knowledge, that the ability to train at the FTC is only a phone call away, so it's not like it's that hard or even that cost prohibitive to hone some skills in the areas that are lacking. So, that said, is it really an accurate statement that "many" Westchester Fire Departments don't believe that they have the proper knowledge, skills, and abilities?

[x635 4,066]

So, that said, is it really an accurate statement that "many" Westchester Fire Departments don't believe that they have the proper knowledge, skills, and abilities?

I don't think it has to be done at the WCFTC. The leadership of the department is ultimately responsible, and can get "RIT Operations" taught and refreshed in house, and make training in it a monthly requirement. And departments like West Harrison and Katonah have training towers, so you don't even have to go to the WCFTC.

[DannyB119 2]

You illustrate my point exactly. It's not like there's this pervasive unavailability in opportunities to train, so I still don't understand how "many" Westchester departments can feel that they don't have the training, skills, equipment, manpower or leadership to rescue one of their own members, or the members of another department.

[mstrang1 213]

Just because the training is available, doesn't mean that everyone will use it. You can lead a horse to water....

[Bnechis 3,961]

"Many" is pretty vague. Which ones in particular seem to feel that way? What makes them feel that way? If that's the way they feel, then why not train some more? As has been previously stated in another thread, Westchester is one of the highest taxed counties in the entire State, and I know from direct, firsthand knowledge, that the ability to train at the FTC is only a phone call away, so it's not like it's that hard or even that cost prohibitive to hone some skills in the areas that are lacking. So, that said, is it really an accurate statement that "many" Westchester Fire Departments don't believe that they have the proper knowledge, skills, and abilities?

The fact that in battalians that have approximatly 9-10 fire depts only 2 or 3 of the depts have "FAST" teams that can respond.

You are correct, the training is available, and most should own the equipment anyway. So why cant the closest company be assigned FAST? Its because the depts have told 60 Control they can not or will not do it!

[JetPhoto 626]

It's not just Westchester...

[roofsopen19 34]

I understand guys feel FAST should be a rapid search, basic package, and drag this guy as fast as we can. BUT, not every scenario should be treated this way, not every scenario CAN be treated this way. Besides, we have all heard the stories of techniques like this causing more problems than solving.

In my own opinion, FAST is all about thinking outside the box. If FAST were about getting this guy out by simply dragging his @ss down a hallway then it simply would have been done already by the primary companies! It does not always have to consist of your most senior firefighters, but it for sure cannot consist of your newest.

I feel it is very important the team coming into district is a TEAM. By team I mean a group of Firefighters who train together and who respond together when requested. Not 2 engine companies in the community being placed out of service to respond as the FAST Team. (And Im not singling anyone out). As lame as it sounds, these teams should CONSTANTLY be drilling on the latest and buffiest YouTube video techniques available on the internet. You know, the videos of those know it all firemen trying to find the next best thing for the service. It helps, and it makes us think outside the box like I said I believe we should be doing.

They can be simple packaging & Denver drill maneuvers or even breaching a wall to a room of refuge for our victim. Hey, if we can simply drag him out than so be it. But back to what I was trying to say earlier...the through the hole drills, removal off the roof drills, the Blindfolded RIT-Pak familiarization drills, etc, etc, etc all NEED to be done. These are the FAST teams you want responding to your fire ground.

I believe the simple answer to the original question is XYZ department may be able to provide a bad @ss down and dirty basic Engine or Truck Company. But not every department can provide F.A.S.T. service and are smart enough to decline any request if they truly cannot provide a dedicated FAST Team.

Edited August 13, 2013 by roofsopen19

[mstrang1 213]

While on the topic of FAST (RIT), almost nothing aggravates me more than when ICs say "send me another FAST, we are putting this one to work". If conditions are getting worse, then A) if you do need to use that FAST, this is probably around the time you will need it and won't have it, and the original FAST has (hopefully) been monitoring building stability, fire growth, etc since they arrived on scene and cannot then relay this to the new team that may or may not arrive for 15 minutes because they are "working".

[Dinosaur 844]

While on the topic of FAST (RIT), almost nothing aggravates me more than when ICs say "send me another FAST, we are putting this one to work". If conditions are getting worse, then A) if you do need to use that FAST, this is probably around the time you will need it and won't have it, and the original FAST has (hopefully) been monitoring building stability, fire growth, etc since they arrived on scene and cannot then relay this to the new team that may or may not arrive for 15 minutes because they are "working".

Another example of how we consistently fail to manage and simply respond. With adequate resources in a STAGING AREA, you never have to put the FAST/RIT to work (of course they're already at work because FAST is a job).

So why don't we have adequate resources in a staging area? Because (waaahhh), if we aren't needed at the scene don't call us (waaaaahhhh), we don't just want to sit there in staging we want to work (waaaahhhh). Guys gotta get a grip and realize that some time being in staging is an important job and the more we cry about it and refuse to do it the further we come from letting the IC manage an incident with enough resources available to him.

Nothing aggravates me more than 12 chiefs at a command post and none leading the troops in the thick of it!

[FirNaTine 370]

Mant Depts. are lucky if they have enough guys to get the 1st hoseline in operation quickly and provide f/e and adequate and proper ventilation in a timely fashion so I can understand. Maybe if Depts could meet the above, along with hiring competent and able individuals to carry out same, and not lower their standards to meet an objective, "quotas" there'd never be a need for FAST/RIT teams. Let's face it fellows, Im sure if you did a little research many FF injuries and LODs were caused by complacency, human error, and even incompetence. Id rather see guys train just as much on getting the 1st hoseline charged as well as performing proper ventilation and strategy and tactics. I can't understand why so many people are so worried about who and how many ffs are standing by as a FAST/RIT while you have one guy stretching 6 lengths of hose by himself to a 4th fl JOB. But hey everything's Ok we have 4 guys responding in as our FAST/RIT. I've on numerous occassions also seen important jobs not getting done cause th IC is more concerned with having his FAST/RIT out front to cover his ass and have it on record, while the skeleton crew inside whose already taxed is left to perform these vital functions. Now Im not saying it's not needed cause yes there's always the chance of the unforseen occurring, but many times I guarantee it us as ffs that put ourselves and others in a situation that requires a FAST/RIT to be deployed. Stick to your Basics and your SOP's and most importantly put the fire out as fast as possible and everything else will generally get better and there wont be a need for FAST/RIT. Remember, as many FDNY Chiefs have always stated, a properly positioned and charged hoseline will save more lives then and ladder will. JMO

[bad box 371]

No matter how many times the topic of provision of FAST is discussed in these forums, I still see many who seem to believe that FAST must be provided by a special 'team' (like haz mat, tech rescue or fire investigation). Like it or not, FAST is part of every firefighter's duties. Any engine, truck, rescue company or squad must be fully capable of being assigned as the FAST when arriving at an incident and functioning in that role should a firefighter get into trouble and require immediate assistance. This training should be part of the process of becoming certified as a firefighter.

Edited August 14, 2013 by bad box

[wraftery 1,275]

While on the topic of FAST (RIT), almost nothing aggravates me more than when ICs say "send me another FAST, we are putting this one to work". If conditions are getting worse, then A) if you do need to use that FAST, this is probably around the time you will need it and won't have it, and the original FAST has (hopefully) been monitoring building stability, fire growth, etc since they arrived on scene and cannot then relay this to the new team that may or may not arrive for 15 minutes because they are "working".

FAST, RIT, MAT, 2-OUT, RESCUE TEAM, OR WHATEVER YOU WANT TO CALL IT MUST BE IN PLACE WHENEVER THERE ARE MEMBERS IN AN ILDH.

That's not my opinion, it's OSHA's and it's the law. You are not allowed to put your RIT to work without replacing them with another RIT first. OSHA doesn't particularly care exactly how you accomplish this but they are sticklers on that you accomplish this with no gaps.

This tip might help you as to what should be established on the fireground:

Years ago I learned the "20 minute rule." If on arrival you expect members to be operating for more than 20 minutes to gain complete control of the fire, you must call for more resources. why 20 minutes? Because that's how long an air pack lasts.

Its' not rocket science(although there are times you do need rocket science). It's more like baseball. You need 9 players on the field plus guys on the bench that can go in at any time AND play the position they are going in to fill.

[JM15 386]

FAST, RIT, MAT, 2-OUT, RESCUE TEAM, OR WHATEVER YOU WANT TO CALL IT MUST BE IN PLACE WHENEVER THERE ARE MEMBERS IN AN ILDH.

That's not my opinion, it's OSHA's and it's the law. You are not allowed to put your RIT to work without replacing them with another RIT first. OSHA doesn't particularly care exactly how you accomplish this but they are sticklers on that you accomplish this with no gaps.

Very well said. I can guarantee you if there is an accident or fatality and your not meeting 2in-2out the investiagtion will not end well for you.

[houlidsa 76]

Every FF should have the basic skill set of FAST / RIT. It has been proven time and again that the FFs already operating are going to be the first to a downed FF. Because of this FACT what transpires in the first few minutes may be more important than after the fact.

Also it kills me that guys get so caught up in niche training but a lot of guys may not have the true master skill sets in basics.

[Bnechis 3,961]

Very well said. I can guarantee you if there is an accident or fatality and your not meeting 2in-2out the investiagtion will not end well for you.

It cost Buffalo $4,100,000 this year for failing to meet 2in 2out in a double LODD. (thats just the civil payout)

[JM15 386]

It cost Buffalo $4,100,000 this year for failing to meet 2in 2out in a double LODD. (thats just the civil payout)

Very true!!

[TFD141@aol.com 26]

i think in the above discussions we are confusing being "listed" as a FAST team in 60 control versus having most if not all members trained in FAST; and also where you obtain that training. I know in my volunteer FD we require FF1 & 2 and encourage going further such as FAST, Rescue Basic plus, etc. We also do CPR/First Aid initially and annually and refresh our HM, rescue, FAST, Bailout, etc. annually. We don't run EMS but have many EMT's and do go on some EMS assists. We have many department members that are fire instructors or highly experienced firefighters that can do instruction at the company level for FAST and most everything else, but can't issue a county or State certificate which is not a problem to us as our fire commissioners are the AHJ, but going to other places, we prefer having those certificates on file to cover a legal situation outside of our normal district/battalion. Initially like many, our FD was listed as a FAST team. For some (unknown to me) reason we fell off that list. We have a great department and generally we get out with 5 FF on an engine and 6 FF on a ladder or rescue (Our rescue is a rescue-pumper as majority of rescues are car related and fires are possible with the rescue). Do we have our moments where we have less or don't get out as fast as we like? yep. I don't know of any FD that doesn't have that problem sometime during a shift. Unfortunately volunteer shifts are 24/7. But well over 90% of the time we are on our mark and get two engines and ladder (and more) out to our structure fires. We send less to other type fires so maybe only one or two units are needed on those type of calls. I prefer going to fires in our district as we run riding positions and so I know pretty close to exactly what to expect each apparatus & team to do and accomplish. Going to MA is more difficult as we usually send only one, possibly two apparatus and under the command of others that work "differently". Again we are very structured, however, we adapt to going to other FDs that are less structured. We also have a standing order to all to stand-by at HQ if one apparatus has left as we may need more. And standing by in another's HQ in case of an alarm...seems we can do the same standing by in our HQ and cover both districts based on the next alarm, so we avoid going to just standby at one house or district (but will go if asked). Volunteer houses and most career houses do not have the manning as in years past.

There are a few volunteer and career FD's that don't have a manning problem. That is due to the the community make-up, and taxpayers and leaders being ABLE to afford full coverage. However, most cannot afford this coverage regardless of what you may think ( i.e. Westchester most taxed, richest, having funds, should be able to afford best protection, etc, etc.) without a sizable tax increase which would not fly regardless of "what we want". So slowly FAST teams became hard to field to have a full team standby often times several towns over, and not your usualy MA area. This means a FD that is running thin already, or helping other nearby FD's with temporary manning issues, has to question fielding a "listed" FAST team at 60. I agree you should be asking for more "fire teams" at staging rather than using the on-scene FAST team, just when everything is "heating" up and they are needed most as a FAST. I also think if you are a career firefighter and live in a volunteer community, you should run with your local VFD instead of complaining why don't they clean up their act, do better, etc..as all volunteer live or work in that community...and have other careers....so put aside the differences and join. I know this will fall on deaf ears to many on here that are career which is a shame, or worse (Oh MY!!) you will beat me up verbally on this chat...hmm..If I only had feelings they would be hurt!!!...but hey, being in a coma for the past 5 years as someone suggested recently on another post..has it's advantages.. (actually I choose not to answer on EMT bravo to avoid just such remarks and pissing on each others well polished shoes as I have Irish blood in me too)

My opinions and remarks are solely my personal opinions and are not necessarily the opinions or position of my fire department or other teams I am associated with.