Great Job By Hawthorne IC and 60 Control At Today's 2nd Alarm

[x635 4,066]

Great job by Hawthorne's IC at the 2nd Alarm on Astor Place this morning!

While enroute and as the IC got on scene, he made several specific and immediate requests upon learning the severity and knowing the amount and type of manpower and apparatus that would be needed. He also factored into the equation that he would need more manpower due to the weather and longer rehab cycles.

It got really confusing real quick because numerous M/A units could not get out of quarters due to manpower despite being re-toned several times. Or units could not get the requested apparatus out of quarters but could get another one out. The I/C had to keep modifying his requests and keeping up with the confusion.

60 Control also did a phenomenal job keeping up with the mess of units who could and couldn't get out. Very well handled by the dispatch professionals involved! I wish I had a recording to play here to show how 60 Control's strong work.

However, I hope this incident is evaluated and learned from. The amount of mutual aid and manpower not being able to get out needs to be analyzed. This can't keep happening over and over with daytime manpower, especially when it's August and a lot of members are away on vacation. If a department can't get out, there needs to be some sort of penalty or the department needs to go out of service until they can assure they can get an interior crew and rig out, such as using a scheduling or who's around kind of system. This was not fair to do to the person's house that was burning, and it was not fair to Hawthorne FD. It's not individual members faults, but a countywide problem that keeps getting worse despite years and years of discussion.

And they need to stop calling Engines Rescues and Quints Ladders!! It gets too confusing listening to it on a busy fire ground channel! Especially for rusty buffs like me. LOL.

[Dinosaur 844]

What a joke. How many different departments needed to be sent on a single family dwelling fire? This is not a knock on any of the individuals who responded (I'm sure they did the best they could) but an example of how screwed up the fire service is in Westchester County.

It took nine or so departments (including the Grasslands Fire Brigade) to get 6-8 engines and 3-4 ladders to the job? The system ain't workin' boys!!!

Finally, after almost 1/2 an hour they stopped trying to special call a special "FAST Team" and just assigned one of the mutual aid companies to that function. Wow.

I'm not criticizing anyone but the system!

[towlad49 3]

You are a J_ _ _ A_ _

[x635 4,066]

You are a J_ _ _ A_ _

Who? I don't think it's warranted to call anyone else names, especially when this was no one's fault subjectively per the course of this discussion and no one should be insulted or called names for their opinion. If you have a rebuttal, post it. It's being discussed objectively as a problem with the system, and this is one of the many "perfect storms" that happen due to the way things are set up that should be openly discussed on here, as if it even the most minute thought is put into place, it could help at least a little. And a little is a big step in this county.

And I've got Dinosaur's back. He is a frequent poster here and his contributions are valued like all of our established members, if that is who you meant.

[PCFD ENG58 1,085]

looks it time to remove the new guy

[16fire5 693]

It's probably this exact reason the suburban Washington DC counties have evolved to the system they now use. Still plenty of volunteer opportunity there but a systems that ensures response to reported fires.

[Bnechis 3,961]

We have 58 Fire depts. in Westchester and many have trouble getting enough trained firefighters on scene. Many have more equipment then they can ever manage to get out the door and this situation puts the public & firefighters in danger.

I suspect nothing will change until a multi fatality fire AND a lawsuit against the fire dist /municipality and/or the chief(s).

Its really sad that depts are not willing to solve this problem.

[WstPrideEng92 3]

I would like to point out that 60 control was dispatching departments for their FAST when in fact these departments never had one to begin with. Not sure how that happened but it did. Either way everyone did a good job and worked together great. It was honestly one of the smoothest jobs i've been to in sometime.

[JM15 386]

I would like to point out that 60 control was dispatching departments for their FAST when in fact these departments never had one to begin with. Not sure how that happened but it did.

Can you elaborate?

[BFD1054 1,552]

We have 58 Fire depts. in Westchester and many have trouble getting enough trained firefighters on scene. Many have more equipment then they can ever manage to get out the door and this situation puts the public & firefighters in danger.

I suspect nothing will change until a multi fatality fire AND a lawsuit against the fire dist /municipality and/or the chief(s).

Its really sad that depts are not willing to solve this problem.

Barry,

As i am sure you are well aware, this problem goes well beyond Westchester and its very unfortunate, not to mention down right dangerous.

Many Depts can not get enough properly trained FFs out on routine runs on a frequent basis, let alone for actual fires. It seems many in charge continue to bury their heads in the sand and still have the "we're only volunteers and do the best we can" mentality.

Ladies and gentlemen, it is 2013 and the "we're only volunteers" nonsense has got to stop.

It is sad that it may come down to a fatality (civilian or FF) before there is any change and that may not even be enough.

If you know that your FD has a manpower issue (and you do), then you need to not only admit it, but do something about it!

Whether it be through automatic mutual-aid or consolidation (gasp), you must do whats right and owed to your community.

Unfortunately this is not the first time we've had this discussion and even more unfortunate, it will not be the last.

Just my useless 2 cents

Stay safe

[Spartan052 43]

I would like to point out that 60 control was dispatching departments for their FAST when in fact these departments never had one to begin with. Not sure how that happened but it did. Either way everyone did a good job and worked together great. It was honestly one of the smoothest jobs i've been to in sometime.

this is why departments should train with basic fast techniques to function as a fas team until one is on scene for example buchanan and motrose are doing had done something like this last year

[PHIL78 129]

Whats next non multiple line engine companies or truck companies that are not pitched roof qualified.FAST is for our protection, US, if your not trained in it then well i find it hard to call you a firefighter.

[Dinosaur 844]

Hey it's alright he can call me a jackass if he wants to. I've been called worse and don't take it personally.

I'll say again my point is that this isn't a dig at anyone involved in the response to Hawthorne this week. It was a critical analysis of our failure to develop the "fire service" in Westchester and as others have pointed out around the region too.

A lot of excellent FF are in the departments that responded to Hawthorne's job. The departments that responded have a lot of apparatus that didn't respond though because they don't have enough people to staff them. So we went wider and wider to cover a job while idle apparatus sat in stations. THIS is a problem and THIS is the kind of thing we need to address.

It was never personal. And it still isn't.

[WCFCX613 6]

We have 58 Fire depts. in Westchester and many have trouble getting enough trained firefighters on scene. Many have more equipment then they can ever manage to get out the door and this situation puts the public & firefighters in danger.

I suspect nothing will change until a multi fatality fire AND a lawsuit against the fire dist /municipality and/or the chief(s).

Its really sad that depts are not willing to solve this problem.

Well Stated Barry, Westchester Departments Spend MORE Time Specing Million Dollar Rigs And Multi-Million Dollar Firehouses And MOST Departments Can't Muster Up Enough Equipment To Fight A Small House Fire, It's VERY, VERY Sad !!!!!!

[Remember585 815]

What is the staffing of the incoming Mutual / Automatic Aid units? Do we even have a standard for this in Westchester? Should we?

An "Engine Company" from one department may be packed with 8 Interior Firefighters, while one from another may only bring 3 and Joe Bob the 70 year-old driver.

There might be underlying issues on this particular job that prompted the IC to call what he called (water pressure, long stretches, Collyer's Mansion, etc) so we shouldn't just assume it was a lack of personnel.

Also - I think it is time to put an end to the "re-tone." If you can't turn out on the initial dispatch in a timely fashion, another unit should either be dispatched in place of or at the same time as the original.

We all need to don our big boy pants and admit when we can't get out, and that time isn't after 15 minutes and multiple sets of tones.

[Dinosaur 844]

Unfortunately for many there are no big boy pants hanging in the closet. They stomp their feet and curse YOU when you correctly point out that they aren't doing the job. Instead of attacking the problem, they often attack you as the messenger.

There is a set of standards. They're from the NFPA and even they made adjustments for staffed vs. on-call (doesn't matter whether you're paid or not, it matters whether you're in the firehouse or not!). Look them up if you're not familiar with them and then talk to your FD about what standards YOU meet.

Someday this is going to become an issue and we're all going to wish we did something about it before "they" did.

[Dinosaur 844]

We have 58 Fire depts. in Westchester and many have trouble getting enough trained firefighters on scene. Many have more equipment then they can ever manage to get out the door and this situation puts the public & firefighters in danger.

I suspect nothing will change until a multi fatality fire AND a lawsuit against the fire dist /municipality and/or the chief(s).

Its really sad that depts are not willing to solve this problem.

I was bored today and figured out that that is one entire fire department for every 16,481 residents of the county or one FD for 8.1 square miles. There are single engine companies in NYC that cover more people than an entire department up here. LOL

If you take Yonkers out of the equation (because they have the most population and the biggest FD), its one entire FD for every 3,463 residents or 7.75 square miles.

[SECTMB 612]

Here we go again. So, if a department is dispatched for a mutual aid working fire and is unable to put a rig on the road, I would presume that they would be unable to respond, at that time, to a call within their own district, thereby prompting mutual aid themselves.

I wonder if the apparatus that never moves is the result of accommodations to insurance requirements as much as it is a department's own vanity. Why have three engines if you can only ever get one or two on the road?

Why are there not more automatic mutual responses, particularly for reported structure fires? Millwood and Ossining get dual dispatch to Maryknoll, Millwood and Briarcliff to incidents on the Taconic, Archville and Pocantico go out together, the tri-villages get dispatched together. Why is there not more of this done as a standard practice to ensure that something is leaving 'a' station to respond? Some departments regularly fail to respond in a timely fashion, almost every department fails occasionally.

Westchester's demographics are changing and not in a favorable way for the volunteer services. On the other hand, the increasing tax burdens put restraints on the existing paid departments and prohibit volunteer departments from supplementing their ranks with paid personnel during resident 'work hours'.

I would like to see the County create its own department and enter into mutual aid pacts with all the existing County departments to provide automatic, dual response, mutual aid. Station their 'single company' apparatus, preferably quints, at various County facilities adjoining multiple districts that they can respond into.

If the County Police can absorb a local police department, why could they not in the future absorb a local fire department? Aren't they already the Department of Public Safety? Can they not just expand the services they offer? There are economies in efficiency and there have been previous posts about the abundant quantity of engines and ladders available in the County, many of which without the manpower to respond them. There are also countless examples of successful County wide departments around the country providing a professional level of response with fewer houses, fewer apparatus and ranks of either paid or combination paid/volunteer.

We go around and around on this manpower and response issue every couple of months and nothing ever changes. The FD old guard are too entrenched and intractable and the politicians too gutless to address a genuine quality of life issue affecting every citizen of the County, somewhere, on almost a daily basis.

[nwpfd390 2]

im pretty sure being an officer is not only knowing your capabilities but mutual aid capabilities you cant just starting calling everyone in the world because you have a fire, secondly if you do need a fast team instead of calling specific depts how about you just call for A fast team and let the CAD system work for you i understand its volunteer and the middle of the day and it gets hectic but people need to take a breathe and size up the situation, if you call for a ladder from one dept and try to get a fast team from them as well, i think thats a little much and you are depleting the resources for that town whether the manpower is there or not, and im pretty sure that the grasslands brigade does not leave the reservation that is the point of their existence.....

[Bnechis 3,961]

1) I wonder if the apparatus that never moves is the result of accommodations to insurance requirements as much as it is a department's own vanity. Why have three engines if you can only ever get one or two on the road?

2) I would like to see the County create its own department and enter into mutual aid pacts with all the existing County departments to provide automatic, dual response, mutual aid. Station their 'single company' apparatus, preferably quints, at various County facilities adjoining multiple districts that they can respond into.

If the County Police can absorb a local police department, why could they not in the future absorb a local fire department? Aren't they already the Department of Public Safety? Can they not just expand the services they offer? There are economies in efficiency and there have been previous posts about the abundant quantity of engines and ladders available in the County, many of which without the manpower to respond them. There are also countless examples of successful County wide departments around the country providing a professional level of response with fewer houses, fewer apparatus and ranks of either paid or combination paid/volunteer.

.

1) ISO requires a minimum of 2 engines and a ladder or service company (rescue) for every response and a spare for every 7 frontline units. So if a small town has 1 dept it needs 2 engines, 1 ladder or rescue and a spare engine and a spare ladder or rescue. If the same town has 3 fire depts. It needs 6 engines, 3 ladders or rescues and if a written agreement is in place to share spares it needs a spare engine and a spare ladder or rescue. Without the agreement it needs 3 spare engines and 3 spare ladders or rescues. This is because the insurance rating looks at each dept as if it was the only game in town.

I think the bigger reason is 30-50 years ago depts were bursting at the seams witrh members, so they could "staff" whatever rigs they purchased. now there is no staff, but we allways had x number of rigs, so thats what we must maintain.

2) it is illegal in NYS to have county based FD's. That is why you can not find 1 as an example

[SECTMB 612]

1) ISO requires a minimum of 2 engines and a ladder or service company (rescue) for every response and a spare for every 7 frontline units. So if a small town has 1 dept it needs 2 engines, 1 ladder or rescue and a spare engine and a spare ladder or rescue. If the same town has 3 fire depts. It needs 6 engines, 3 ladders or rescues and if a written agreement is in place to share spares it needs a spare engine and a spare ladder or rescue. Without the agreement it needs 3 spare engines and 3 spare ladders or rescues. This is because the insurance rating looks at each dept as if it was the only game in town.

I think the bigger reason is 30-50 years ago depts were bursting at the seams witrh members, so they could "staff" whatever rigs they purchased. now there is no staff, but we allways had x number of rigs, so thats what we must maintain.

2) it is illegal in NYS to have county based FD's. That is why you can not find 1 as an example

I would think any illegality can be remedied through legislation if only there were politicians with the will to address the problem.

[Bnechis 3,961]

I would think any illegality can be remedied through legislation if only there were politicians with the will to address the problem.

Agreed

Also if there was not a very strong lobbying group that claims to represent the intrests of the volunteer fire service

[JM15 386]

Agreed

Also if there was not a very strong lobbying group that claims to represent the intrests of the volunteer fire service

This is very true... Nothing will ever happen without their say

[wraftery 1,275]

How 'bout we get rid of Obamacare, stop giving planes and guns to people like the Egyptians, give welfare checks only to those to deserve them, end all the freebies that elected officials get, etc,etc. Then start up a National Fire Dept.

[JM15 386]

How 'bout we get rid of Obamacare, stop giving planes and guns to people like the Egyptians, give welfare checks only to those to deserve them, end all the freebies that elected officials get, etc,etc. Then start up a National Fire Dept.

How dare you!! Thats racist!!

[wraftery 1,275]

How dare you!! Thats racist!!

Oh sorry, I forgot. I was thinking of the greater good for all.

I tend to be politically incorrect. but more often right than wrong. Real Firefighters, because of the profession cannot be racists. All you have to do is watch them do their job and it will be evident.

[FirNaTine 370]

Maybe spend less $$$$ on bells and whistles and equipment you really don't need and think of going Career. I think the time has come.