Affirmative Action (scenario question)

[BCFire05 83]

Ok, I have a question here for all my brothers / sisters in the emergency services. I've come across an issue with a particular fire fighter in a city that I run EMS calls in.

This particular guy is black, and when running any medical / trauma call, he will not provide any aid to a white person. Once he sees it it's a white patient he will turn around and get back in the engine while the rest of the engine crew assist (even if it's a cardiac arrest). If the patient is black, he will jump over mountains to assist and then gets irritated when he believes we aren't helping fast enough or anything he believes is sub par care. I've asked why the fire dept would allow him to do this and still have a job and they say it's because of affirmative action. Yet I don't believe that kind of behavior falls under that protection. I may be wrong.

Now I'm not trying to start a racial war by any means. I provide the best possible care to every patient I work on regardless of race, sex, or if it's even a nonsense call with a person abusing the system. I just find that kind of behavior ridiculous in an industry where it is your job to provide care to everyone.

Does anyone know if affirmative action protects his actions? From what I've read I don't believe so. And what thoughts do you have?

Again this isn't to start a race war thread or any trouble.

[ex-commish 490]

Since when did affirmative action dictate patient care. I thought it had to do with hiring practices. He took an oath to protect and serve and if he can't get beyond his racist attitude he is in the wrong profession.

[LTFIREPRG 154]

Affirmative action refers to policies that take factors including "race, color, religion, sex, or national origin" into consideration in order to benefit an underrepresented group "in areas of employment, education, and business".

By no means does this scenario have anything to do with affirmative action, this is a violation of the oath this individual took when he raised his right hand and swore to faithfully discharge his duties. This type of behavior within in the department is just like a cancer in the body, not treated aggressively, they both will have the same results.

[Bnechis 3,961]

As others have said, this is not protected by affirmative action. Unfortunatly numbers of minorities hired does and often depts are unwilling to deal with issues like this because they do not want to upset the numbers.

If the party is mandated to be an emt (or other level of state certified provider) to maintain employment. Sometimes the state can be called in as the heavy and let them push him out by suspending his cert.

[antiquefirelt 994]

Is this guy the engine officer? If not, who is and why isn't he/she doing their job? If this guy's the officer, someone above him is either in the dark or is hiding there.

[grumpyff 1,159]

Make a complaint to that cities Human Resources Department. If he is a CFR or EMT, make a complaint as well to the State Dept of Health. Affirmative Action may have gotten him his job, it does not give him the right to act like a boob.

[v85 212]

I agree.

Go to HR, the chief's office, the mayor's office, the union and whoever else you need to

This kind of behavior CAN NOT be tolerated in the emergency services. This "firefighter" needs a one way ticket to the unemployment line

[M' Ave 1,466]

Is this guy the engine officer? If not, who is and why isn't he/she doing their job? If this guy's the officer, someone above him is either in the dark or is hiding there.

This behavior of line officers and chief officers is all too common in this business. Many seem simply unwilling to fight this uphill battle. The strength of EEO offices (often mojority populated by minorities) has allowed for the sheltering of those who are substandard or willfully neglectful of thier duties. They regard authority as hostile and blame anyone but themselves for poor performance. They take refuge from duly earned criticism under the all too protective "race card". This shameful crutch is damaging to our profession and to the successful and prosperous members who make up the majority of minority members.

Lets just wipe race from every discusion. Deal with people as individuals and not make excuses for anyone's behavior. There is a sore lack of personal responsibility in our culture and it manages to infect our profession as well.

[BCFire05 83]

That's my thoughts exactly. I've heard the issue has been brought up to the higher ups multiple times but no one will do anything about it. And no he's not an officer. I've argued the affirmative action being just with hiring practices but I've heard people believe that it carries over into work itself saying it protects his beliefs. Bigotry is not a belief.

It's just another issue that shows no matter what you do, racism will never go away because of people like that.

[wraftery 1,275]

That's my thoughts exactly. I've heard the issue has been brought up to the higher ups multiple times but no one will do anything about it. And no he's not an officer. I've argued the affirmative action being just with hiring practices but I've heard people believe that it carries over into work itself saying it protects his beliefs. Bigotry is not a belief.

It's just another issue that shows no matter what you do, racism will never go away because of people like that.

I agree with all the posts before me who said this is not Affirmative Action, it is blatant racism in its worst form. If it is condoned by your higher-ups then I don't see why you could not file an EEOC against those higher-ups.

"When a fire engine pulls up in front of your building, nobody gets off and says 'What floors are the White People on?" -Dennis Leary

(Maybe Dennis was wrong)

[antiquefirelt 994]

That's my thoughts exactly. I've heard the issue has been brought up to the higher ups multiple times but no one will do anything about it. And no he's not an officer. I've argued the affirmative action being just with hiring practices but I've heard people believe that it carries over into work itself saying it protects his beliefs. Bigotry is not a belief.

It's just another issue that shows no matter what you do, racism will never go away because of people like that.

I guess I'd want the engine officer to do his job and write the guy up and let someone try and squash it or him for actually doing his job. As M'Ave noted it's too easy and common for officers to ignore issues and let stuff slide until it's too late. But if one person starts the process, it'll be a whole different scenario to try and make it go away.

[BCFire05 83]

I agree with all the posts before me who said this is not Affirmative Action, it is blatant racism in its worst form. If it is condoned by your higher-ups then I don't see why you could not file an EEOC against those higher-ups.

"When a fire engine pulls up in front of your building, nobody gets off and says 'What floors are the White People on?" -Dennis Leary

(Maybe Dennis was wrong)

I don't work for the city, I work for Acadian Ambulance, a private service that provides the ambulance service to the area. Getting anything done through my company and higher ups is another battle in and of itself. On top of it, most of the the city's engine companies / battalion chiefs dislike our company and for some reason like to take it out on us when it's not our fault things are run they way they are. That's a whole other story though.

This guy has been with the fire dept for 10+ years I believe. So if nothing has been done by now, I doubt it will ever be dealt with.

[v85 212]

I don't know how far you want to take this, or what your willing to risk; but if this has been going on for 10+ years, maybe an anonymous call to the media might be in order.

[CTFF 65]

Make a complaint to that cities Human Resources Department. If he is a CFR or EMT, make a complaint as well to the State Dept of Health. Affirmative Action may have gotten him his job, it does not give him the right to act like a boob.

If this individual is a CFR or EMT he has a duty to act, he doesn't have the option of not acting. He puts many people and entities in a potential legal situation every call he does this at.

[crcocr1 8]

The interesting part of this scenario is the EMT, if part of a municipal fire agency, could be held liable under a federal 1983 for any harm due to the EMT's actions for acting under color of law to deprive an individual of a civil right (assuming if fits within the "shock the conscience" exception or the many carved exceptions to allow for a 1983 suit). Even if not part of a muncipal agency, the issue of medical neglect/malpractice would otherwise rear its ugly head even with protections under the Article 800 of the Public Health Law (allowing immunity for EMTs and Paramedics so long as not grossly negligent). Of course, the liability would be fact dependent and more details would be needed for an attorney, judge, jury, etc. This comment dovetails any employment law violation by his/her partner who may be affected by the discrimination.

Edited August 6, 2013 by crcocr1

[Arbrow06 5]

I can't make any comments because this story is really one sides. If he is on the engine and there is also a private ambulance on scene there is such thing as too many hands. Also maybe the black people he encountered were family friends and he let his emotions get ahead of him. I am sure we will all push a little harder for a loved one to get the best care out there.

In my opinion, I think you should understand his position first by talking to him after your next rendezvous and debrief and talk to him about the trend. That is what gets things solved. You are EMS professions that work together in the same community so take that initiative. You don't go to higher ups unless you talk to the person first. Imagine what would happen if this person gets their license revoked because of a misunderstanding. Good luck trying to be a EMS provider in the area anymore.

In closing, talk to him. Understand him. Build rapport with him and I guarantee you no further action will be necessary and it will clear up this objective misunderstanding. Who knows maybe he has a better rapport with that community of people so his guys tell him to take the lead. You never know unless you ask.

[Dinosaur 844]

I can't make any comments because this story is really one sides. If he is on the engine and there is also a private ambulance on scene there is such thing as too many hands. Also maybe the black people he encountered were family friends and he let his emotions get ahead of him. I am sure we will all push a little harder for a loved one to get the best care out there.

In my opinion, I think you should understand his position first by talking to him after your next rendezvous and debrief and talk to him about the trend. That is what gets things solved. You are EMS professions that work together in the same community so take that initiative. You don't go to higher ups unless you talk to the person first. Imagine what would happen if this person gets their license revoked because of a misunderstanding. Good luck trying to be a EMS provider in the area anymore.

In closing, talk to him. Understand him. Build rapport with him and I guarantee you no further action will be necessary and it will clear up this objective misunderstanding. Who knows maybe he has a better rapport with that community of people so his guys tell him to take the lead. You never know unless you ask.

That's a lot of comments after "I can't make any comments" but that's typical here.

What's being described is a pattern of behavior that is contrary to EMS policy, federal and state laws and amounts to racism. Yes, racism. I've seen the same course of conduct from another "group" who will run people down in order to get to "their own" and ignore those that are not part of their group. Not racism, but equally offensive.

"Understand him"? Build a rapport with him? And you guarantee no further action will be necessary. Bold statements by someone who said he can't comment. I'm willing to bet that you're 100% wrong and if this was brought up around the firehouse kitchen table, there would be a complaint filed, lawsuit threatened and those reporting his illegal behavior would be reprimanded. It is not a level playing field and there is very little recourse for those witnessing this unless someone with rank is willing to step up and do something.

If what's posted is accurate, this person is not a professional and has issues that should be addressed.

[Arbrow06 5]

To clarify I mean no comments as far as the actions that took place but I offered solutions as someone who has taken countless hours of leadership training and conflict resolution. The best time to sort it out one on one. Over coffee or whatever. Making him feel like your accusing him will only make things worse but if you guys are level and you come off as simply trying to understand his actions and express concerns he will much less defensive. Like I said it is unnecessary to just go around to the higher up with just observations because you don't even know what's going on. EMS people need to help each other with their weaknesses for the sake of better patient care.

[v85 212]

I can't make any comments because this story is really one sides. If he is on the engine and there is also a private ambulance on scene there is such thing as too many hands. Also maybe the black people he encountered were family friends and he let his emotions get ahead of him. I am sure we will all push a little harder for a loved one to get the best care out there.

In my opinion, I think you should understand his position first by talking to him after your next rendezvous and debrief and talk to him about the trend. That is what gets things solved. You are EMS professions that work together in the same community so take that initiative. You don't go to higher ups unless you talk to the person first. Imagine what would happen if this person gets their license revoked because of a misunderstanding. Good luck trying to be a EMS provider in the area anymore.

In closing, talk to him. Understand him. Build rapport with him and I guarantee you no further action will be necessary and it will clear up this objective misunderstanding. Who knows maybe he has a better rapport with that community of people so his guys tell him to take the lead. You never know unless you ask.

The main issue I have with this line of thinking is the fact that the firefighter in question is a 10 year veteran.

If he was an 18 year old probie who grew up in an all black neighborhood, and was suddenly assigned to an all white neighborhood I could understand some hesitation as he may feel that the patients would be uncomfortable with him. But in his 10 years of service that issue should have gotten worked out.

The fact that this firefighter still does this tells me that if it is not intentional racism, it is then, failure to adapt to the emergency services (i.e. being able to deal with all ethnicities)

[Arbrow06 5]

The main issue I have with this line of thinking is the fact that the firefighter in question is a 10 year veteran.

If he was an 18 year old probie who grew up in an all black neighborhood, and was suddenly assigned to an all white neighborhood I could understand some hesitation as he may feel that the patients would be uncomfortable with him. But in his 10 years of service that issue should have gotten worked out.

The fact that this firefighter still does this tells me that if it is not intentional racism, it is then, failure to adapt to the emergency services (i.e. being able to deal with all ethnicities)

I agree with your diagnosis but the fact of the matter is we don't know both sides of the story. We don't even know the side of the story of the firefighter in question's crew. I'm saying before we jump to conclusion I want to see if the poster can get direct info from the horses mouth and possibly solve the situation.

[Bnechis 3,961]

I agree with your diagnosis but the fact of the matter is we don't know both sides of the story. We don't even know the side of the story of the firefighter in question's crew. I'm saying before we jump to conclusion I want to see if the poster can get direct info from the horses mouth and possibly solve the situation.

Do we really need both sides of the story? If the ff is operating in this fasion, it does not matter why, it is just wrong.

The real question is 1) have his officers attempted to send it up the chian (since even if they tried to handle it in house and that did not work). 2) did higher ups just ignor it?

[FireMedic049 597]

If this individual is a CFR or EMT he has a duty to act, he doesn't have the option of not acting. He puts many people and entities in a potential legal situation every call he does this at.

You are correct to a point.

If he is the only EMT on the crew, then there is a clear "failure to act" issue anytime he returned to the engine prior to the arrival of the ambulance since the highest certification provider walked away from the patient.

If the rest of the engine crew are EMTs, then there is absolutely no "failure to act" issue in regards to his certification and caring for the patient since other "equally trained/certified" personnel are appropriately caring for the patient. In that situation, the only issue in play is the internal matter of what appears to be a deriliction of duty based on racial factors.

[FireMedic049 597]

To clarify I mean no comments as far as the actions that took place but I offered solutions as someone who has taken countless hours of leadership training and conflict resolution. The best time to sort it out one on one. Over coffee or whatever. Making him feel like your accusing him will only make things worse but if you guys are level and you come off as simply trying to understand his actions and express concerns he will much less defensive. Like I said it is unnecessary to just go around to the higher up with just observations because you don't even know what's going on. EMS people need to help each other with their weaknesses for the sake of better patient care.

Some of what you suggest might be more appropriate if all involved were part of the same agency. In that situation, I would agree that talking to the person directly might be the best way to start working to a resolution.

However, in the situation described, the OP and the FF in question are employed by different agencies. Typically, inter-agency problems in para-military organizations are supposed to be handled via the "chain of command". This is exactly the type of issue that should be handled that way rather than as a one on one bonding session.

As presented, this is not a situation were a provider is in need of assistance from a peer to improve their patient care. He appears to be providing NO patient care if the patient is not a specific race. That requires immediate action by his superiors, NOT peer counseling.

[wraftery 1,275]

_{Screw political correctness. Screw counseling. This has been going on for a long time and must be stopped for both legal and moral reasons.}

_{If his superiors refuse to take action, go to the Feds. I bet they would just love to set up a sting operation with the hidden cameras and audio transmitting tie clips that are siting in their closets.}

_{Just think. The guy is a racist...he may hate you, too. If the two of you were climbing 5 flights of stairs heading up to a patient, and you go down gripping your chest, what would he do?}

[AFS1970 504]

I agree with most posters, but I have to say that the suggestion to sit down and have a chat with him and understand what he is all about is hogwash. If the original post had the races reversed and this was about a white firefighter who refused to treat black patients (something equally as irresponsible and reprehensible) there would have been no suggestions to do anything other than fire him without due process. As the poster is in Texas, think about if this had been about refusing to treat Hispanics, considering our ongoing national debate on immigration. As a service we need to move on past this crap and the only way this will ever happen is to get rid of the bad apples and actually enforce standards across the board.

The sad thing is that Affirmative Action in and of itself does not protect this individual, but the attitudes that have been bred from affirmative action do. Those attitudes are prevalent in the management of many departments. You have chiefs that will openly tell you they cannot write someone up because it would somehow violate their rights. You have firefighters who think that since institutional racism got someone their job, it guarantees then a job for the rest of their life. Then you have employees that even when they know it doesn't fly logically, know if they cry foul based on affirmative action others will run away frightened.

I knew of a case where a new officer found a bad behavior (one that most on this baords would be horrified of) that was happening with a veteran firefighter. It was at the point where he felt it was not safe to have that firefighter on scene. The matter was sent up the line and ultimately did turn into a "racial issue" that was exasperated by the fact that the issue had been ignored for so long.

My suggestion would be to document the incidents as best you can, then make whatever complaints you have to without any mention of race. This way if there is some form of dereliction of duty the written complaints will not be able to be disregarded as racially motivated. It may take longer as it will not be on every case, and it may make the work environment a bit tenser as it will quickly become obvious where the complaints are coming from. However it may just give some of the department leadership the cause they have been looking for to deal with a problem they know about even if they have ignored it for years.

[Arbrow06 5]

I agree this was made into a racial issue when really its a patient care issue.

[FireMedic049 597]

I agree this was made into a racial issue when really its a patient care issue.

In all likelihood this really isn't a patient care issue. It's highly likely that this guy is not the only EMT on his crew and as mentioned above, the fact that he chooses to not participate in caring for an individual patient is probably having little to no impact on patient care prior to the arrival of the ambulance unless the rest of the crew are a bunch of "medical nitwits".

Given the likelihood that patients are being cared for regardless of this firefighter's participation, his reported enthusiasm to care for patients of a specific race and his reportedly blatant avoidance of caring for patients not of that specific race makes this matter first and foremost a RACIAL issue, not a patient care issue.

Additionally, if the OP's observations as posted here are correct, then the person responsible for making this "into a racial issue" is the firefighter refusing to care for patients not of a specific race.

Edited August 11, 2013 by FireMedic049

[BCFire05 83]

Hey everyone, sorry I have been absent, It has been a very busy week at work.

UPDATE & Clarification

In most medical run cases, yes this fire fighter will choose to sit in the engine or help based on the patients race and in most cases this does not affect overall patient care. All fire crews are either EMT's or EMT-P. He is an EMT.

Multiple crews at my company have had issues with him, but only when it was a black patient. We could respond to someone with a stubbed toe and he would make a larger deal out of it and get an attitude with us if he believed that patient wasn't being given the "best possible care" regardless of how well we were doing.

Have I attempted to talk to this fire fighter? Yes, a couple times in fact, he simply ignores me and moves on.

Chain of Command, until recently, none of his immediate officers have done anything about it nor tried to move it up the chain. As far as I have now gathered, the Chiefs have not fully known of his actions until recently.

ANYWAY moving on to the UPDATE.

There has a been a couple new promotions at that fire dept and thankfully for the better. Both captain promotions. There are now 2 Captains who do not put up with his attitude. It became a larger issue on a multi-vehicle MVC with, you guessed it, all white patients. They're response is 1 engine, 1 heavy rescue. There were around 6-7 patients (no entrapment's) all needed spinal immobilization. He attempted his staying in the rig routine, and the newer captain did not put up with it. Much help was needed and he had to suck it up and help.

Since this, he has been under a very watchful eye these past few shifts. I've talked to my friend who also works there and he's has informed me that he is now under investigation due to the multitude of complaints received by the 2 captains & many of our crews who run with that dept more often then I do. As far as to what will happen to him, I don't know. The wreck happened Thursday, so I think if anything more will happen, it'll happen next week.

My friend at the dept is going to keep me informed.