(Delivered) Esopus Fire District

[suffernH&Lbuff 117]

County: Ulster
City/Town/Municipality/Dept: Esopus Fire District
Unit designation/identifier: Tanker 27-11
Chassis & Body (or Aerial) Manufacturer and model: Freightliner MS 112 with 2 Door Cab KME
Pump size, tank size (water/foam), aerial type & length: Hale DSD-125, 12500 GPM Single Stage Pump
Intakes: Driver Side: 6" & 2 1/2" : Officer Side: 6" & 2 1/2"
Discharges: Driver Side: (1) 2 1/2", Officer Side: (1) 3" & (1) 2 1/2" Rear: (1) 2 1/2" OS Sleeved, Other (2) 1 3/4" Crosslays
Side Mount Pump Panel
3000 Gallon Poly Tank
(3) Newton Dump
(1) 2 1/2" and (1) 4" At Rear
Estimated delivery date: Finished,Displayed at Baltimore Fire Show 2013
Status:
Notes: PHOTO BY KME

Edited July 28, 2013 by suffernH&Lbuff

[fitzjr11 17]

County: Ulster

City/Town/Municipality/Dept: Esopus Fire District

Unit designation/identifier: Tanker 27-11

Chassis & Body (or Aerial) Manufacturer and model: Freightliner MS 112 with 2 Door Cab KME

Pump size, tank size (water/foam), aerial type & length: Hale DSD-125, 12500 GPM Single Stage Pump

Now that's a kick ass pump!

[Reliance 29]

12,500 GPM pump water won't last long in the tank.

[PCFD ENG58 1,085]

I think they made a mistake. It should read 125,000 GPM yea that's right !

[x4093k 654]

Photo by Mike Messar @ OTJNY.

Good luck with the new rig Esopus!

[jtarby 3]

I think they made a mistake. It should read 125,000 GPM yea that's right !

Not fire related, but an interesting pump fact. There are two pumps on the Housatonic River in New Milford, CT at the Rocky River hydro plant that pump water from the Housatonic River up to Candlewood Lake. The pumps are spec'd at 125,000 GPM each.

[markmets415 524]

Very nice looking rig, here's to many years of service to Esopus, thanks for sharing!

[everybodygoes 331]

Probably one of the best rigs and ideas I have seen in a long time. Custom rigs are a complete waste of money when dealing with tankers. Not many are using them as a first due rig and if you are they are very limited due to the size constraints due to tank size. Lake Mohegan bought 4 commercial cab rigs back in the 90's, I just passed one the other day. Why spend 700k when you can spend 400 and get the same thing? Its not like that many dept's in NYS are running like we do in NYC with 3-5k runs a year. Spend that 300k on something better like in house training by all these guys giving valuable information in a one or two day class.

[Bnechis 3,961]

_{Probably one of the best rigs and ideas I have seen in a long time. Custom rigs are a complete waste of money when dealing with tankers. Not many are using them as a first due rig and if you are they are very limited due to the size constraints due to tank size. Lake Mohegan bought 4 commercial cab rigs back in the 90's, I just passed one the other day. Why spend 700k when you can spend 400 and get the same thing? Its not like that many dept's in NYS are running like we do in NYC with 3-5k runs a year. Spend that 300k on something better like in house training by all these guys giving valuable information in a one or two day class.}

_{You may need to define "custom". While I agree that there are "tankers" that are really pumpers with a big booster and are way more than is needed or can be handled. Cab over designes (which are often considered custom, but do not need to be) out perform the others because of their manuverability.}

_{The real issue with tankers is always what is its gpm delivery rate per mile? Almost every dept without municipal hydrants that has moved from ISO 9 to 4, 5 or 6 had three things in common;}

_{1) high performance tankers - faster fill and dump times, better manuverability and the ability to fill and dump with a maximum of 2 people, with the driver staying in the cab. Many of the "standard" commercil units saved money, but did not perform well.}

_{2) Standardization of all tankers. Same amount of water, same dump & fill times.}

_{3) Training, Training, preplaning, and more training}

Edited July 31, 2013 by Bnechis

[antiquefirelt 994]

Probably one of the best rigs and ideas I have seen in a long time. Custom rigs are a complete waste of money when dealing with tankers.

While I see what you're saying, I think you might be over looking some the benefits of using a "custom" (purpose built cab over) chassis for most large apparatus applications. Custom (for the purpose of this discussion) chassis offer much better occupant safety in accidents. The frequency of accidents is greater, making this valuable point to consider spending the extra money. As you said, the FD's using tankers often have a smaller run volume and thus less operator experience, and even still a generally less rigorous driver training program. Add in some adrenaline and you have a recipe for a tanker involved accident. Why not at least acknowledge the increased risks and enhance the safety of the personnel on the rig? Also as Bnechis noted, the cabover design tends to be more maneuverable which is typically advantageous in rural settings.

Of course there are ways to minimize the risks of tanker accidents that should be undertaken as well, given the amount of potential from the weight of tanker apparatus. It has always been my belief tankers over 1200 gal. should not have emergency lights or audibles, but utilize yellow lights and respond with the flow of traffic minimizing some of the greater risks. But even if everything else was perfect I'd still prefer the apparatus that was most likely to protect the occupants best.

[pump305 53]

I was a Water tender (Tanker) trainer and operator. I will disagree about Tankers responding Code3 any size. It all comes down to training the operators on driving abilitys. On loads full or half is a whole different way of driving. Most accidents are from non trained operators. You can not put who ever shows up first if a vollie dept or have any F/F drive a tanker. The bottom line is TRAINING period. As for custom over commercial cabs on a tanker i agree you do not need a custom rig. A conventional is usual safer with the motor ahead and not under or behind you. You can have the same specs as a custom with less dollars. As for turning radious again a conventional with a set back front axle will turn as sharp if not sharper then a cabover.Its all about the foot print.

[Bnechis 3,961]

A conventional is usual safer with the motor ahead and not under or behind you.

You can have the same specs as a custom with less dollars. As for turning radious again a conventional with a set back front axle will turn as sharp if not sharper then a cabover.Its all about the foot print.

In a frontal crash, the motor in front would be safer, but the overwhelming majority of tanker accidents are rollovers and in almost every tanker LODD it was a rollover with either ejection (no seatbelts) or roof crush. NFPA was actually considering this in there last update and was debating outlawing any chassis that didnot meet roof crush standards (many of the commercial chassis wouldnot meet this).

Yes and the foot print (wheelbase) on cab overs are almost always 24-48" shorter.

[SRS131EMTFF 471]

outlawing any chassis that didnot meet roof crush standards (many of the commercial chassis wouldnot meet this)

What are the roof crush standards? Where can I find them?

[Bnechis 3,961]

What are the roof crush standards? Where can I find them?

My point was that NFPA considered raising them above the almost nonexisting current.

However, many manufactures are already getting UL to certify that their cabs meet SAE-J2420, SAE-J2422, and ECE R29SAE crush standards,

Some custom cabs can support 120,000 pounds or more.

There are Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standards (FMVSS) for lighter vehicles #216 Roof Crush Resistance:

GVW < 6,000 lbs: 3x vehicle weight

GVW 6,001 - 10,000 lbs: 1.5x vehicle weight (including ambulances)

[M' Ave 1,466]

I spent a few years in a volly dept. that purchased two new Pierce engines on Kenworth chassis. They were fantastic, I mean really fantastic. They were 40% cheaper than any of Pierce's cab-over custom builds and all the cab and chassis parts are more accessible and cheaper to obtain locally. Need a new door? There's a Kenworth dealer 10 minutes away. Length is certainly increased, but this isn't an issue for many Westchester Departments. I can only speak to areas I'm familiar with, but Westchester, and L.I. collectively spend and offensive amount on apparatus. A lot of money could be saved purchasing commercial chassis.......but, I know, that's not "cool" looking.

[everybodygoes 331]

Trying to say that safety is compromised is not really valid. How about don't drive like an idiot and you won't get killed. I would much rather see the additional 300k in savings spent on something much more useful like things that get used, and often. I have a few fireman friends that drive an oil truck, why is it you rarely here of oil truck drivers getting killed in accidents? When you look at the specifics of most apparatus accidents the other poster was right, wear your seatbelt, pay attention, forget the stupid radio. If you can't put out the fire with the first due engine which better have at least 750 gallons if you even own a tanker you aren't saving any lives anyway, and if you drive like youre in your civic you won't be saving your own behind either!

[antiquefirelt 994]

Trying to say that safety is compromised is not really valid. How about don't drive like an idiot and you won't get killed.

Again, I'm not disagreeing with you, but if it was that simple hopefully it would have already been done. It's not happened yet, thus we must engineer a safety factor to cover the lack of discipline and training, mush like many other things in our profession today.

I have a few fireman friends that drive an oil truck, why is it you rarely here of oil truck drivers getting killed in accidents?

Honestly, I strongly think the only reason here is the number of miles they put on, of course under no "stress" (real or perceived). Class A or B licenses don't make people better drivers, time in the drivers seat does. The driving time of operators of Commercial vehicle licenses far exceeds normal drivers, thus those with commercial operators licenses enjoy far fewer accidents. Sure like many other things, knowing the background of air brakes vs. hydraulic brakes may be beneficial, but that's not what prevent the accident from occurring.

Edited August 1, 2013 by antiquefirelt

[pump305 53]

Again... Training Training Training. I jhave seen Engine Co as long as a tanker many times. But thats not really the issue. A dept who operates Tankers needs to have assigned Engineers to them period. Take a driving course if availible learn how it feels empty, full and half full. Learn the braking distance and even proper accleration. Very Very important is slow and steady turning. If the Tanker has a Jake Brake use it. Be careful in rainy or snow conditions. Also off road conditions like down hill or a slope with a turn. Can you safely make this turn with out flipping? A tanker is only as big as the design from the dept. Lower the tank the better. You do not want a short stubby tanker thats a whole other issue.The tanker i drove was 37ft long. Thats only 4ft longer than most engine co. The operator also needs to be tested for air brakes and tanker. Its no different than asking a F/F to drive a tiller or eng. If he or she has never or very little drive time you are asking for trouble. Training!!

[TheNewLadder32 49]

Here in White Plains we have all Commercial chassis Freightliners they tend to have alot more issues then the few Custom chassis we do have. They are nice trucks and are remarkably cheaper but I personally believe that the custom chassis would be better. Their isnt that much room in the Commercial chassis compared to the custom and granted all departments may not be looking for that its also something nice to just be concious of when specing your rigs. It's also weird when you have your Engine chassis the same as your garbage truck chassis just to save costs on parts when the trucks do go out smart idea but kinda tacky in my opinion.

Edited August 1, 2013 by TheNewLadder32

[everybodygoes 331]

You shouldn't have anything in the cab but your helmet and gloves anyway, cause if you want to err on safety it becomes an issue in the event of an accident but thats not that issue. Wouldn't you want to have an extra guy on an engine instead of a rig to sit in that has room for what? A meter? Realistically what are you putting in the cab that shouldn't be in a compartment? If youre going on an unknown odor run you shouldn't be starting your meters on the rig anyway, it will FAS in a dirty environment, especially if you work in a busy area and have contaminated bunker gear. It would rather also have a rig replacement program that gets you something every x amount of years as opposed to when they think its not gonna last another day.

[M' Ave 1,466]

Here in White Plains we have all Commercial chassis Freightliners they tend to have alot more issues then the few Custom chassis we do have. They are nice trucks and are remarkably cheaper but I personally believe that the custom chassis would be better. Their isnt that much room in the Commercial chassis compared to the custom and granted all departments may not be looking for that its also something nice to just be concious of when specing your rigs. It's also weird when you have your Engine chassis the same as your garbage truck chassis just to save costs on parts when the trucks do go out smart idea but kinda tacky in my opinion.

Commercial chassis in a city where run volume is higher, I wouldn't advocate for commercial and I see your point. I'm speaking more about smaller departments who's call volume is below 1,000. When the vehicle is being used a lot more frequently during the course of a normal day with higher response volume, inspection and training duties and all this often on rougher city streets with more time on the brakes, I think warrants a more expensive custom chassis.

[FD123FD 5]

Look at the new NFPA standards. You aren't suppose to keep the helmet in the cab with you. It's not secured if an accident were to happen.

You shouldn't have anything in the cab but your helmet and gloves anyway, cause if you want to err on safety it becomes an issue in the event of an accident but thats not that issue. Wouldn't you want to have an extra guy on an engine instead of a rig to sit in that has room for what? A meter? Realistically what are you putting in the cab that shouldn't be in a compartment? If youre going on an unknown odor run you shouldn't be starting your meters on the rig anyway, it will FAS in a dirty environment, especially if you work in a busy area and have contaminated bunker gear. It would rather also have a rig replacement program that gets you something every x amount of years as opposed to when they think its not gonna last another day.

Edited August 2, 2013 by FD123FD

[PCFD ENG58 1,085]

You shouldn't have anything in the cab that is loose.

[TheNewLadder32 49]

Commercial chassis in a city where run volume is higher, I wouldn't advocate for commercial and I see your point. I'm speaking more about smaller departments who's call volume is below 1,000. When the vehicle is being used a lot more frequently during the course of a normal day with higher response volume, inspection and training duties and all this often on rougher city streets with more time on the brakes, I think warrants a more expensive custom chassis.

I definitely get your point I was just stating my opinion on the chassis and how your right that a city shouldnt be running commercial chassis. And it would definitely increase the price on the custom chassis but it would definitely be worth the cost .... But i could be wrong please feel free to correct that.

[pump305 53]

More and more depts are running Paramedic engines. With that said you need a bigger cab as the medical cabnet usual sits in the rear crew area. Also some depts have a small refrigerator for drugs that need to stay cool. That's were a custom cab comes in handy. Among many other reasons. According to NFPA.. it's $10,000.00 more to equip a commercial cab than a custom cab with the new requirements.