Zimmerman-Dispatcher

[220LT188 11]

So I DO NOT want to start a fight or discussion about the trail, contemporary american society, or 21st century racial/social issues. But...

I followed the trail and the after show and I noticed something that made me think. The 911 dispatcher told Zimmerman that the police were coming and they didn't need him to follow Martin anymore. A lot o people unhappy with the verdict were using this saying the dispatcher told him not to follow Martin and he did anyway. Some saying the dispatcher was asking a series of questions about the 'suspicious' subject like where he was going, more detail on what he looked like, and what he was doing, thus making Zimmerman follow Martin further in order to gain the information the dispatcher was asking about. So?

1) What are the the obligations of John Q. Public to follow the orders or directions of a 911 dispatcher? Do they have to or obligated to lawfully?

2) What training / requirements do dispatchers have in telling a person what or what what not to do? And what are the legal and civil liabilities of the dispatcher for doing / or not doing something?

I know every dispatch system is different and unique and follow state and local guidlines, and some dispatchers are police / peace officers. I am a dispatcher and have been for some years and I do not believe I have any power to tell someone to do one thing or another or not. I strongly suggest using common sense what a person should or should not do, but where or when is the limit.

Just thought it was an interesting point and know a lot of dispatchers on here and would like to hear their thoughts / knowledge / experience in these matters

[Arbrow06 5]

Scene safe. If someone does not feel safe as an emd for my vac I tell them stay where they are if its safe and wait for help to arrive not to move around and play Joe Investigator. There is alot of liability on the part of a dispatcher because telling or neglecting to tell someone something can cause alot of issues. I think if the the dispatcher had not told Zimmerman not to follow he would have been charged with negligence in acivil suit because you can clearly hear zimmerman following martin.

[antiquefirelt 994]

I take the way the dispatcher worded it to be more of a release of liability for the dispatch center, thankfully too, as they'd certainly be on the hook in civil trial.When Zimmerman said he was leaving his vehicle to follow the suspect, the dispatcher said, "you don't need to do that". Unless things are a lot different there, the dispatcher has no legal authority to give orders to anyone.

[v85 212]

Dispatch can not give orders to people, unless they are sworn officers. Even if they are sworn officers, they would have to identify themselves as such and make it clear that they are giving the order as a police/peace officer

[10512 214]

GZ called 911. It does not really matter what authority the dispatcher has, what I think matters is that GZ was on the phone with what any prudent person would consider a competent authority. That "competent authority" advised him what to do. Whether or not the dispatcher's "orders" are legally binding or not is ridiculous to even consider. He did not heed that advice. The rest is history. Any Security/Neighborhood watch that has any competent level of training would have been trained to listen to the advice of a dispatcher.

My opinion is that this is a case of an armed, poorly trained, plainclothes half-azzed neighborhood watchman who was a police wanna-be, playing cop, sticking his nose where it did not belong, This incident was doomed to go sideways from the beginning.

As for the dispatcher...if he had heeded that advice, we would not be having this conversation now.

This was all my OPINION. I am not going to debate it. I am not going to change my OPINION. Agree or disagree: fine. I will respect that. Have a differing opinion, I am willing to listen. I will probably not agree, but I will not argue or try and change your mind.

Edited July 20, 2013 by 10512

[Westchester 49]

This is a very sad time for all, who hate to see race play a part in this. I took have been following this case. I agree with Arbrow06 scene safety. Police even wait for additional units to respond. George Zimmerman had gun muscles. If he did not have a weapon he would never of followed Travon Martin. It's a sad day in our country with violence. Being a PoliceOfficer, Fireman/Firewomen, or Medic is a dangerous job. Not only do we have to deal with the 911 Emergency but also civilians. In New Jersey a EMT was stabbed a couple of days ago.Back to the dispatcher. The dispatcher tried to get is much info as possible for the responding units. George Zimmerman had no business following or confronting this young boy. Stand your ground law is a good law, but fists vs gun don't work.I remember EDP calls, police would always go first check theerr scene then have EMS enter the scene. Our world is getting out of hand.

[JetPhoto 626]

Lets get this right, GZ called the non emergency line not 911. I / we don't know if that call taker or dispatcher has the same or more training than a 911 dispatcher. As far as I am aware unless it is a certain type of medical call and being a "EMD" trained person they are limited as to what they can direct a civilian to do. As far as saying "We don't need you to do that" in regards to following TM it's a mere advisement and not an order, very similar to your dispatcher "suggesting" to stage for a potentially violent scene. If it was proven that GZ initiated the fight well then I would have felt he held some guilt however he followed the law and acted within the law.

The problem in this country is people have double standards!

[SRS131EMTFF 471]

The problem in this country is people have double standards!

And what may those be?

[SageVigiles 1,194]

Stand your ground law is a good law, but fists vs gun don't work.

Despite what the media, Al Sharpton and Eric Holder keep saying, Florida's "Stand Your Ground" law had nothing to do with this case, it wasn't even invoked. Zimmerman's attorneys argued was simple self-defense, a right that every American in the entire country has.

[Westchester 49]

Despite what the media, Al Sharpton and Eric Holder keep saying, Florida's "Stand Your Ground" law had nothing to do with this case, it wasn't even invoked. Zimmerman's attorneys argued was simple self-defense, a right that every American in the entire country has.

Ok if it's not stand your ground, then it's profiling. Was self defense by GZ needed? Every American has the right to defend their lives, but provoking a confrontation this was not going to end well. I believe in the right to bear arms, but only buy people that need it, and have a extensive back ground check. GZ had no reason for a gun. He was a buff like some people when act like a fireman or the hero of the day. How many probies in our service have you seen buff it out with all the bells and whistles in their car, or first one to show up for a call. I'm sorry to say but this topic is going to become racist and not about the Dispatcher/Zimmerman situation.I own a gun for work and I'm always thinking about " what if I have to pull it out, and against who, and if I do and fire it how will I feel knowing that what I did was justified in the legal system or by God.

[JM15 386]

Ok if it's not stand your ground, then it's profiling. Was self defense by GZ needed? Every American has the right to defend their lives, but provoking a confrontation this was not going to end well. I believe in the right to bear arms, but only buy people that need it, and have a extensive back ground check. GZ had no reason for a gun. He was a buff like some people when act like a fireman or the hero of the day. How many probies in our service have you seen buff it out with all the bells and whistles in their car, or first one to show up for a call. I'm sorry to say but this topic is going to become racist and not about the Dispatcher/Zimmerman situation.I own a gun for work and I'm always thinking about " what if I have to pull it out, and against who, and if I do and fire it how will I feel knowing that what I did was justified in the legal system or by God.

Was self defense by GZ needed? -If my face was being bashed into the ground and I thought I would die then yes.

Every American has the right to defend their lives, but provoking a confrontation this was not going to end well. -So what if he did "provoke" it he was still attacked.

I believe in the right to bear arms, but only buy people that need it, and have a extensive back ground check. - How do you define people that need it? Is being able to defend your life or your families a need?

I'm sorry to say but this topic is going to become racist and not about the Dispatcher/Zimmerman situation. - Why does it have to become racist? Facts can be discussed without the issue of race by some.

I own a gun for work and I'm always thinking about " what if I have to pull it out, and against who, and if I do and fire it how will I feel knowing that what I did was justified in the legal system or by God. - There is a saying that I would rather be judged by 12 then carried by 6... Seemed to work out for Zimmerman

[SRS131EMTFF 471]

So what if he did "provoke" it he was still attacked.

Quick thought experiment:

I randomly walk up to on the street and start following and start a fight (note: I make sure I tuck my gun in my waistband before I approach you).

You, being randomly attack on the street, start to fight back and you know what you are bigger and stronger than I am thus you are able to pin me on the ground.

I, seeing that I am losing the fight, the fight I started, pull my gun and shoot you in the chest.

Did I shoot you in self defense (you were kicking my ass), or did I commit murder (I started the fight)?

Granted my thought experiment is most likely not what happened (only GM knows) but it is certainly highlights the idea that provoking the fight does not necessarily mean that you get to shoot someone in the chest after they attack you.

[nycmedic 65]

I amazed at this question because it always comes up and the majority of people who ask it think that Travon should not have acted differently.. Nothing is wrong with ask who you do not reconize who are you and what are you doing here. Heck I do it all the time. All Travon had to do was ask Zimmerman why he was following him.If he truly felt threatened he could have called 911 or continue running. Instead he decided to come back and attack Zimmerman.

[220LT188 11]

PLEASE. This IS NOT a discussion about laws / racism / stand-your ground / guns / self defense / the right of the people vs. the right of the individual!!

Its was a simple discussion about the responsibilties, requirements, liabilites (both public & agency) of what a dispatcher can tell you, should tell you, obligated to tell you, lawfully should tell you and what the public should expect to hear from a dispatcher / call taker from an offcial government agency and wether they are obligated to follow it as it pertains to the case ie 'the dispatcher/call taker told Mr. Zimmerman that t"hey didnt need him to follow the subject" (Mr. martin), so could there be a case, in legal or civil court saying that Mr. Zimmerman was 'wrong' (not morally) but legally or liably for disregarding the dispatcher/call taker's "order/advice/suggestion?

PS- 1) If ya want to have the Left wing / Right wing arguement go and rally outside Fox news or MSNBC, cause guess what? Both sides are right AND both sides are wrong. It is the ability for calm, civil conversation with room to COMPROMISE to settle differences and come to a result that is for the common good that made this country great and which we are now destroying because we are all to self absorbed and arrogant to keep our minds open (like a parachute thats the only way they work)FOR EXAMPLE: I have the right to carry a gun, do I mind having (and I should) have a background check, training, safety measures for the gun when not in use? Of course I should have them all! This is why this country is tearing at the seems. 2) I think this is why people don't come here to post or get fustrated when they do. If anyone read my original post they would of understood that this was not a discussion about all the above bulls*&t! It was a general question about dispatching systems and procedures so that we might learn, have informed discussion, and maybe improve the way we SERVE the people!

[Westchester 49]

To JM15 The jury has spoken and I agree with the jury. But to say GZ was bashed in the concrete, come on we are all professionals in EMS or Fist Aid that was not head bashing. I hit my head harder just thinking . Your right this is about the Dispatchers role and information he gathered for GZ. Is our justice fair, NO how many times have we heard of paroles with a rap sheet longer than a football field and then they commit a crime. Yes we must defend ourselves and family, but even if you have a gun and a intruder comes into your home (NYS) and you shoot and kill the intruder, your the one that's finding a date in prison. GZ had no business buffing it like a cop. Again a Police Officer won't follow a possible suspect with out backup. You see it in villages, towns and sometimes on the saw mill a police car will have the assitance of another crusier if needed. SCENE SAFETY. The Dispatcher told him NOT TO FOLLOW, not follow get into a fight and shoot him.I never knew skittles was a beadly weapon or maybe it was the ice tea. That's it the sugar in the tea was a weapon of mass destruction. Thats the reason. The only reason why GZ walked is that the State of Florida did a horrible job, and the defense won. It's like saying OJ is innocent, but we all know he killed. It is a sad day in our country. No Justice, No Jobs, No hospitalization reform, Detriot going bankrupt, and soon the Sun will hit the earth!

[grumpyff 1,159]

To JM15 The jury has spoken and I agree with the jury. But to say GZ was bashed in the concrete, come on we are all professionals in EMS or Fist Aid that was not head bashing. I hit my head harder just thinking . Your right this is about the Dispatchers role and information he gathered for GZ. Is our justice fair, NO how many times have we heard of paroles with a rap sheet longer than a football field and then they commit a crime. Yes we must defend ourselves and family, but even if you have a gun and a intruder comes into your home (NYS) and you shoot and kill the intruder, your the one that's finding a date in prison. GZ had no business buffing it like a cop. Again a Police Officer won't follow a possible suspect with out backup. You see it in villages, towns and sometimes on the saw mill a police car will have the assitance of another crusier if needed. SCENE SAFETY. The Dispatcher told him NOT TO FOLLOW, not follow get into a fight and shoot him.I never knew skittles was a beadly weapon or maybe it was the ice tea. That's it the sugar in the tea was a weapon of mass destruction. Thats the reason. The only reason why GZ walked is that the State of Florida did a horrible job, and the defense won. It's like saying OJ is innocent, but we all know he killed. It is a sad day in our country. No Justice, No Jobs, No hospitalization reform, Detriot going bankrupt, and soon the Sun will hit the earth!

In New York State, under Penal Law, Article 35 section 3, you are allowed to defend your home, with deadly physical force if necessary. However, once the person leaves your home, you are not allowed to follow. http://law.onecle.com /new-york/penal/PEN035.20_35.20.html also section 35.15 sub 2i http://law.onecle.com/new-york/penal/PEN035.15_35.15.html

As far a solo police officer, yes they will follow a suspect without back up. It is part of the job. Same for stopping multiple suspects at one time. I have stopped up to 4 suspects, by myself, while calling for back up. May not be tactically sound, but it happens a lot. There are ways to handle this, by taking cover if available, handcuffing suspects, making them get on their knees, laying them out on the ground, or stopping at gunpoint depending on the crime commited and possibility of weapons. NYPD Auxiliary do this now, without a firearm, often with just a radio, and maybe a vest. In 2007, two NYPD Auxiliaries, Officers Eugene Marshalik and Nicholas Pekearo were killed in the line of duty doing this. Keeping a suspect in sight while radioing for back up, as they followed an individual who had just shot and killed two people http://www.nydailynews.com/news/4-die-bloodbath-article-1.216036 and http://www.nydailynews.com/news/crime/volunteer-city-police-eyes-ears-force-article-1.291634

As far as Zimmerman listening to the dispatcher's instruction to not follow Martin, I think there is no legal basis for him to follow the direction. Zimmerman was a glorified neighborhood watch, not sworn as a peace officer or police officer. Just like a a dispatcher attempting to give CPR instructions over the phone, you can ignore them as a civilian, you have no duty to act, and at that point the instructions are a suggestion. Was Zimmerman overzealous..probably. Was Zimmerman profiling Martin due to race, maybe, although in the 911 call he calls a "f....in punk", not any racial epithets. Did he follow him and call 911...YES, he was legally allowed to do that. You and I can do that as well, it is not required, but legal. Do you as a civilian, have the right to ask a stranger why he is in your neighborhood? yes you do. Does the person have answer you....NO, they can not answer, or can tell you to "go F... yourself" and there is nothing you can do. Now that person your following feels threatened, do they have the right to use physical force against you....No. If they do you, in New York State, you are obligated to attempt to retreat to safety (also in Penal Law article 35), however if you are unable to retreat, you may defend yourself. Using physical force. Deadly Physical Force is not legally allowed unless you believe the other person is using, or about to use Deadly Physical Force against you. That was why Zimmerman got off...he claims he was headed back to his car, when Martin initiated the use of force against him. Unfortunately Martin is dead, and unable to give his side of the story, and very little evidence to back either side.

Edited July 21, 2013 by grumpyff

[antiquefirelt 994]

Ok if it's not stand your ground, then it's profiling.

Huh? So you are basically saying that Zimmerman is guilty of something, anything? SYG and profiling have next to nothing to do with one another, so trying to say if it's not one it's the other, shows that you're trying to find some reason, any reason that Zimmerman is guilty. To continue to fight this verdict is to take exception to our system of justice. At it's most basic core, the prosecution could not prove that George Zimmerman killed Martin in a manner other than self-defense, beyond a reasonable doubt. The "beyond a reasonable doubt", is the only place this case has wiggle room, and I doubt in the long run that most Americans would think changing that clause would be in our best interests?

[calhobs 110]

This may be off topic a bit, but about a year ago I was on 684 south bound, when i was cut off by a drunk driver. I called 911 and spoke to NYSP dispatcher. Who asked me if I could follow the driver at a safe distence but also not chase the car down. I followed the car giving info of what he was doing and location every so often when asked. I also heard in the back ground the dispatcher talking to a Trooper giving the info. after a few minutes of this I heard in the back ground the Trooper state he was in the the area. The dispatcher asked me what lane was I in and to put my flashers on, also to tell him how far the car was in front of me. I passed that info on and within 30 seconds the trooper flew past and nailed him.

So my question is did the Dispatcher have the authority to ask me to do this, what happend if I crashed while doing this. I know I could of said no. For what ever reason I didnt.

[antiquefirelt 994]

So my question is did the Dispatcher have the authority to ask me to do this, what happend if I crashed while doing this. I know I could of said no. For what ever reason I didnt.

I just had a similar situation on vacation in PA where we witnessed a drunk driver hit the car in front of us head-on (glancing blow) then leave the scene. The girl popped right out of her car and the driver stopped watched then took off, so we followed and called 911. I told the the dispatcher I was following and he told me that I did not have to do that if I didn't feel it was safe. I noted we were travelling at a routine traffic speed and the subject didn't appear to notice me, but was very erratic. In the end about 4 miles of city driving with multiple turns and route changes they got him. At no time did I feel obligated to either follow or stop following, of course my actions were weighed against the safety of the "chase", to which I believe the subject remained totally clueless until the traffic stop.

[EMTBrian 4]

Best way to go about answering this question with reasonable intelligence would be to establish what power if any a 911 Dispatcher has, from a "police" stand-point. Obviously the dispatcher doesn't want to be held liable or responsible for putting the caller in danger, and certainly wouldn't be encouraging or expecting the caller to follow Martin soley for that reason of possibly putting himself

in harms way. What the caller can see visually is all the dispatcher can go off of and document the information caller is conveying to the dispatcher. That would be my guess. The dispatcher instructed Zimmerman not to follow probably for this very reason.

[antiquefirelt 994]

The dispatcher instructed Zimmerman not to follow probably for this very reason.

Maybe it's less clear to some that the way the dispatcher worded it, was in no way instruction. The phrase was "you don't need to do that", basically an acknowledgement that he was following and that it may increase the level of danger. While the difference may seem trivial I submit that it is in fact very distinct and is why there is little to no scrutiny of the dispatchers' role.

[EMTBrian 4]

Scene safe. If someone does not feel safe as an emd for my vac I tell them stay where they are if its safe and wait for help to arrive not to move around and play Joe Investigator. There is alot of liability on the part of a dispatcher because telling or neglecting to tell someone something can cause alot of issues. I think if the the dispatcher had not told Zimmerman not to follow he would have been charged with negligence in acivil suit because you can clearly hear zimmerman following martin.

Excellent point Arbrow, and good way to "FAIL" an EMT practical station is to neglect or forget to say "BSI SCENE SAFETY" Even though you did everything correct & as

meticulously as can be!!

[EMTBrian 4]

I take the way the dispatcher worded it to be more of a release of liability for the dispatch center, thankfully too, as they'd certainly be on the hook in civil trial.When Zimmerman said he was leaving his vehicle to follow the suspect, the dispatcher said, "you don't need to do that". Unless things are a lot different there, the dispatcher has no legal authority to give orders to anyone.

Antique, at the same time someone like Zimmerman should had exercised restraint as well as applied "common sense." Don't be looking to play hero or superman, or even make

believe he's a police officer which in a sense is exactly what he was hypothetically playing the role of. He may have been part of a neighborhood watch or whatever you want to call

it. That more or less play a role of that similar to a "Security Guard." And even a Security Officer has no police power. In two words I can tell you what their job description and duties are,

and how much power they really have. "OBSERVE & REPORT."

[JM15 386]

Not to get even further off topic but George Zimmerman even after all of this went out of his way to aid a family of four in an MVA last week... Not saying he is a hero but he sure seems like a stand-up guy. http://www.foxnews.com/us/2013/07/22/george-zimmerman-rescued-man-from-truck-crash-last-week-police-say/

I have heard of police dispatchers having motorists following drunk drivers etc before so its not a rare occurence. I don't think a dispatcher has the legal authority to direct you to do something. The dispatcher even said "Sir you don't have to do that" not Sir Don't do that, yes legally there is a difference in the wording. Kind of like may and shall.

[Arbrow06 5]

Didn't Zimmerman hang up on the dispatcher and proceed "observing" but not reporting.

I can understand following a group of teens but one person walking really does not seem suspicious and I guess that was how the dispatcher felt and did not take the call as high of a priority. To make a bad EMD anology.

GZ was calling like it was a potential heart attack when it was just a strained chest muscle. I wish the dispatcher said "wait and meet the police at the entrance of the gated community so we can investigate this incident" just so this all would not have transpired

[antiquefirelt 994]

Antique, at the same time someone like Zimmerman should had exercised restraint as well as applied "common sense." Don't be looking to play hero or superman, or even make

believe he's a police officer which in a sense is exactly what he was hypothetically playing the role of. He may have been part of a neighborhood watch or whatever you want to call

it. That more or less play a role of that similar to a "Security Guard." And even a Security Officer has no police power. In two words I can tell you what their job description and duties are,

and how much power they really have. "OBSERVE & REPORT."

I agree with you wholeheartedly here, but in the end the verdict came down to a matter of law. None of the "poor choices" Zimmerman made were against the law according to the only story known. As I said before, that the cause and affect of him leaving the vehicle to follow Martin resulted the outcome, but cause and affect is not law, as in essence it's aligned with "what if".