Fire secretary quits amid concern over $1M truck issue -Orange County

[idlewildvfd 88]

By John Sullivan

Times Herald-Record

Published: 2:00 AM - 07/10/13

GREENVILLE — The secretary of the Greenville Fire District has quit, protesting the board majority's conduct in its pursuit of a nearly $1 million ladder truck.

"I don't feel that the current chairman or the attorney have the best interest of the people of Greenville in mind, and I cannot be a part of that," wrote Lisa Emanuelle, the fire district secretary, in a resignation letter submitted on June 25.

Emanuelle was referring to Chairman Scott Holowach, who along with Greg Einsfeld and Jack Coogan, and the board's lawyer, Frank Simeone, have been under fire from a public increasingly concerned about the prospect of the town buying a 75-foot-tall ladder truck in a town with no buildings even half that tall.

Holowach took over as board chairman in May after he, Einsfeld and Coogan stripped Commissioner Paul Witkowski of the board leadership for obstructing their attempts to pay for the fire truck.

On June 11, residents and town officials delivered a petition with more than 600 signatures calling for a special referendum on the planned purchase. Just two days later, at a hastily-convened meeting, the commission withdrew a former board approval of the purchase, effectively quashing the call for a referendum.

It was Emanuelle's job to properly notify the public about the June 13 special meeting.

The state's Open Meetings Law requires she post such notice in highly visible public offices and that news media be contacted.

The former secretary said she did neither.

Asked about the proper notice requirement at a Tuesday fire board meeting, Holowach said he personally put up the notices on Town Hall and fire district doors. However he did not notify the press, as that job is relegated to the district's attorney, Scott Dow, from Simeone's firm. "I just assumed he (Dow) did it," Holowach said.

Dow did not respond to emails asking about the media call.

According to a press release drafted by Simeone's firm, the decision by Holowach, Einsfeld and Coogan to cancel the ladder truck purchase stemmed from a realization that the district did not have enough money to pay for it. According to the release, that realization occurred on June 11

Emanuelle, however, contends Witkowski and fire district Treasurer Fran Multari warned the three commissioners about the insufficiency of funds more than a month prior. The three commissioners went forward with resolutions to both transfer money and purchase the ladder truck, anyway, while also removing Witkowski as the fire board chairman, she said.

Emanuelle accused Simeone's firm of siding with the three majority commissioners in the dispute, noting that the law firm wrote the resolution to remove Witkowski from the chairmanship. Dow, who was not at the Tuesday night meeting, did not respond to emailed questions about the allegation.

[x129K 1,393]

concerned about the prospect of the town buying a 75-foot-tall ladder truck in a town with no buildings even half that tall.

It ain't about the height.....it's the REACH.

And with a majority of SFD's in the suburbs and rural districts being set back from the roadway, even 75' is too short, as my department has seen all too often.

[Dinosaur 844]

Got to admire her for standing up for what she believes.

[foreman1923 22]

Don't they already have a ladder?

[antiquefirelt 994]

It ain't about the height.....it's the REACH.

And with a majority of SFD's in the suburbs and rural districts being set back from the roadway, even 75' is too short, as my department has seen all too often.

I have no idea if they need a truck or not, but this issue of height seems to confuse a large part of the general public and some of the fire service. I can imagine how many geometry teachers are rolling their eyes when they read this. On the other hand, if your FD can't easily educate the public of setbacks vs. height, etc...

[x635 4,066]

Meanwhile, in the other Greenville (Edgemont "Central Ave Scarsdale" section of Greenburgh), Ladder 4, a 75' Quint could use a 100' replacement.

Maybe Greenville Ladder 4 could be sold to Greenville, would save them money on lettering, as well.

Also, an aerial isn't only about height of buildings...

[SECTMB 612]

It's rarely about what the department needs, its more about what certain members want. Somehow I don't think this story has anything to do with height or reach regardless of her naive comment.

[EMT111 149]

Don't they already have a ladder?

Yes they do, a 75' Mack tower ladder. I think this is more about getting a NEW rig compared to the height or any other issue. Also, they have 2 75' tower ladders (Mount Hope and Otisville) and a 100' tower ladder (Slate Hill) bordering the district, so is it really financially prudent for them to get a new ladder, even if they need it, or just start using mutual aid?

Edited July 11, 2013 by EMT111

[AndyC3J 190]

Greenville's current rig is a 1975 Mack, refurbed in 1988. Yes, the key issue here is replacing the nearly 40 year old truck with a new one, and dealing with people who think the only purpose of a ladder truck is rescuing people from third (or higher) story windows. That, and the issue that most every small department faces....residents fear increased taxes to pay for it. At least that's what it sounds like, based on the various other articles that have appeared in the local paper following the meetings in question.

[Bnechis 3,961]

Also, they have 2 75' tower ladders (Mount Hope and Otisville) and a 100' tower ladder (Slate Hill) bordering the district, so is it really financially prudent for them to get a new ladder, even if they need it, or just start using mutual aid?

1) "Mutual" Aid does mean you help me and I help you. If you need a million $$$ ladder everytime you have a call and you cant send one to me when I need it, its no longer mutual, its just your cheap taxpayers leaching of mine.

2) ISO requires every response to have a ladder or service company (based on building size and fire flow requirement). If you do not have one your rating goes up. Depending on what their rating is, it could cost millions per year in increased insurance premiums to not have a ladder.

[COH Bulldog 82]

Their current truck is pretty old and will soon be one of the oldest front line trucks in the county. They should not have to rely on mutual aid all of the time if they believe they need a truck. It's all about providing the best service for their district's taxpayers. I wonder if they looked at any used trucks. There are some nice ones out there that still have lots of service left in them and at a fraction of the cost of a new truck. That's what Cornwall on Hudson did.

[ffp20 14]

1) "Mutual" Aid does mean you help me and I help you. If you need a million $$$ ladder everytime you have a call and you cant send one to me when I need it, its no longer mutual, its just your cheap taxpayers leaching of mine.

2) ISO requires every response to have a ladder or service company (based on building size and fire flow requirement). If you do not have one your rating goes up. Depending on what their rating is, it could cost millions per year in increased insurance premiums to not have a ladder.

regarding #2, it doesnt require YOU have one, it requires one responds, not necessarily from YOUR dept

[JetPhoto 626]

If your paying a million dollars for a 75 ladder you must have put every bell & whistle on it.

In my district we have several buildings while only 2 stories in the front they are almost 4 stories in the rear should we have a ladder (most have sprinklers), maybe. We only run 2 - 3 fires a year, most are held to room & contents and we have 6 towers & 2 ladder within 5 - 7 minutes of our district. We don't have the manpower to also run a ladder company and a engine company. We would most likely be calling for mutual aid if we did have a fire in one of those complexes. So why should we spend $750,000 - $1,000,000 for an Ariel?

[JM15 386]

If your paying a million dollars for a 75 ladder you must have put every bell & whistle on it.

In my district we have several buildings while only 2 stories in the front they are almost 4 stories in the rear should we have a ladder (most have sprinklers), maybe. We only run 2 - 3 fires a year, most are held to room & contents and we have 6 towers & 2 ladder within 5 - 7 minutes of our district. We don't have the manpower to also run a ladder company and a engine company. We would most likely be calling for mutual aid if we did have a fire in one of those complexes. So why should we spend $750,000 - $1,000,000 for an Ariel?

Would you want to be hanging out one of those 4 story windows waiting at least 5-7 minutes for a ladder to get on scene to rescue you?

[antiquefirelt 994]

regarding #2, it doesnt require YOU have one, it requires one responds, not necessarily from YOUR dept

It is very difficult to get full credit for any apparatus if you don't own it. This is why a true review of the impact should be performed before diminishing the service level you have direct control of.

[FF1 172]

1) "Mutual" Aid does mean you help me and I help you. If you need a million $$$ ladder everytime you have a call and you cant send one to me when I need it, its no longer mutual, its just your cheap taxpayers leaching of mine.

2) ISO requires every response to have a ladder or service company (based on building size and fire flow requirement). If you do not have one your rating goes up. Depending on what their rating is, it could cost millions per year in increased insurance premiums to not have a ladder.

Couldn't agree more on point #1. The Mutual Aid agreement in Westchester has gotten out of hand. For certain communities, the staffing levels (career, volunteer, and or combi depts.) isn't a concern, nor is it addressed, because they just call in as many mutual aid neighbor departments for help an every 10-75. By doing this you are essentially stripping numerous depts. in order to fight your own fire. Not to mention the fact that these career firefighters of departments that are abused in this mutual aid process are basically getting paid by their municipality to fight fires in other towns, villages and cities.

[FF1 172]

Couldn't agree more on point #1. The Mutual Aid agreement in Westchester has gotten out of hand. For certain communities, the staffing levels (career, volunteer, and or combi depts.) isn't a concern, nor is it addressed, because they just call in as many mutual aid neighbor departments for help an every 10-75. By doing this you are essentially stripping numerous depts. in order to fight your own fire. Not to mention the fact that these career firefighters of departments that are abused in this mutual aid process are basically getting paid by their municipality to fight fires in other towns, villages and cities.

Mutual aid is intended for you to help other depts. and other depts. to help you during those times when your district "blows up" and you have multiple calls at once or you have a multi-alarm fire or extraordinary incident that exhausts all of your resources.

Mutual aid is not intended for you and your municipality to ignore staffing levels and choose to not spend money to hire career personal, buy more apparatus, recruit more volunteers, ect and in turn just say "Why should we spend money on this issue when we can just call others every single time we have a fire, rescue or more than 1 call in the district?"

[x129K 1,393]

If your paying a million dollars for a 75 ladder you must have put every bell & whistle on it.

In my district we have several buildings while only 2 stories in the front they are almost 4 stories in the rear should we have a ladder (most have sprinklers), maybe. We only run 2 - 3 fires a year, most are held to room & contents and we have 6 towers & 2 ladder within 5 - 7 minutes of our district. We don't have the manpower to also run a ladder company and a engine company. We would most likely be calling for mutual aid if we did have a fire in one of those complexes. So why should we spend $750,000 - $1,000,000 for an Ariel?

Maybe Castle Point will buy one.......................................

[EMT111 149]

1) "Mutual" Aid does mean you help me and I help you. If you need a million $$$ ladder everytime you have a call and you cant send one to me when I need it, its no longer mutual, its just your cheap taxpayers leaching of mine.

I agree, but if Greenville were to put a truck on automatic response for structure related calls, they would be used maybe a couple of times a year.

Couldn't agree more on point #1. The Mutual Aid agreement in Westchester has gotten out of hand.

Just for clarification for everyone, were are talking about Greenville in Orange County, about 10 minutes outside of Port Jervis. A very rural district that would see a significant decrease in calls if they didn't cover a part of Route 84

[16fire5 693]

Greenville is rural and it could be argued that most comparable departments don't have a truck or even tower for that matter. I would question their ability to staff the tower for structural responses after the required engine and tanker. One poster alludes to the waiting for a truck when trapped in a window but an auto response truck might actually the fastest way to get a staffed truck on scene. Receiving a truck auto aid to all reported fires would not necessarily be abuse of the system especially if it was part of a reciprocal agreement. Most of the country readily accepts the concepts of auto-aid, mutual aid, boundary drop, and closest resource to better serve their customers and ensure the safety of their members. While I agree that consolidation is usually a worthwhile consideration many times starting small can be the catalyst and be the best immediate practical measure to address the issue.

[bob803 1]

Before anyone can jump to any conclusions lets see the spec!

Edited July 13, 2013 by bob803

[Dinosaur 844]

Yes they do, a 75' Mack tower ladder. I think this is more about getting a NEW rig compared to the height or any other issue. Also, they have 2 75' tower ladders (Mount Hope and Otisville) and a 100' tower ladder (Slate Hill) bordering the district, so is it really financially prudent for them to get a new ladder, even if they need it, or just start using mutual aid?

All tower ladders, huh? Is everyone afraid of a straight stick?

With nothing but towers in the neighborhood, you're limiting your capabilities.

[SageVigiles 1,194]

All tower ladders, huh? Is everyone afraid of a straight stick?

With nothing but towers in the neighborhood, you're limiting your capabilities.

Agreed, there seems to be an obsession with having nothing but buckets, I don't understand it myself. "Everything in moderation..."

Edited July 13, 2013 by SageVigiles

[Bnechis 3,961]

Agreed, there seems to be an obsession with having nothing but buckets, I don't understand it myself. "Everything in moderation..."

Thats because 1) we cant let the other depts have a "better" or more expensive toy than we have. 2) No one in the dept is willing to or physically fit enough to climb a straight ladder.

I like when depts. buy a tower that can not drive to the majority of its district because of weight and the rest of the district has tight driveways that prevent turning in and set up. But as long as our toy is as big as everyone else its ok (even if we cant staff it).

[spin_the_wheel 460]

Then buy a used Mack 75' Tower Ladder, refurb it for a fraction of the 1 million cost. A proven reliable work horse plus the rig can go almost anywhere.

I think if you are going to have only ONE type of ladder truck in your department it should be a tower ladder. A taxpayers (building im speaking of) worst enemy.

[spin_the_wheel 460]

Yes they do, a 75' Mack tower ladder. I think this is more about getting a NEW rig compared to the height or any other issue. Also, they have 2 75' tower ladders (Mount Hope and Otisville) and a 100' tower ladder (Slate Hill) bordering the district, so is it really financially prudent for them to get a new ladder, even if they need it, or just start using mutual aid?

Didn't see this post. KEEP THE MACK. Refurb it again.

[antiquefirelt 994]

Then buy a used Mack 75' Tower Ladder, refurb it for a fraction of the 1 million cost. A proven reliable work horse plus the rig can go almost anywhere.

I think if you are going to have only ONE type of ladder truck in your department it should be a tower ladder. A taxpayers (building im speaking of) worst enemy.

Well 3/4 and 7/8 are both fractions. Lately it appears that refurbing Scopes has become quite a spendy project. While I'd agree that if you have one aerial make it a tower makes sense, depending on what other aerials are coming from outside I'd want to consider versatility. Most towers are slower on set up and moves and take up more footprint. It appears that a lot of the justification for new towers is lightweight construction. The ability to work of a platform allows us to consider vertical ventilation for those pesky trusses, but then how many are still routinely cutting roofs in PD's?

[Dinosaur 844]

Then buy a used Mack 75' Tower Ladder, refurb it for a fraction of the 1 million cost. A proven reliable work horse plus the rig can go almost anywhere.

I think if you are going to have only ONE type of ladder truck in your department it should be a tower ladder. A taxpayers (building im speaking of) worst enemy.

Ironically also the other kind of taxpayers worst nightmare!

[Dinosaur 844]

Well 3/4 and 7/8 are both fractions. Lately it appears that refurbing Scopes has become quite a spendy project. While I'd agree that if you have one aerial make it a tower makes sense, depending on what other aerials are coming from outside I'd want to consider versatility. Most towers are slower on set up and moves and take up more footprint. It appears that a lot of the justification for new towers is lightweight construction. The ability to work of a platform allows us to consider vertical ventilation for those pesky trusses, but then how many are still routinely cutting roofs in PD's?

This is sound advice for those who properly use their aerial devices on a regular basis. I don't think most companies drill enough to set up either kind of aerial quickly and efficiently and most chauffeurs can't position the rig to the best advantage. Often because the engine is parked right IFO the fire building or in the driveway.

[Dinosaur 844]

This thread is another prime example of why regionalization is so important. There are a half dozen departments with the same or similar (cause they're all 2 inches bigger than the prior one) apparatus and nobody is considering the benefit of mixing it up with some straight sticks, varying lengths, etc.

Everyone is doing it their own way with no consideration of what the next due will be bringing.

Regional FD's. That's the way to go!