Single Training Standard for Firefighter in NYS

[spin_the_wheel 460]

c) FDNY will never train or call vcolunteers. That's a fact and you know it.

And to say most depts in westchester did not meet standards, I want to see what departments. I have worked with FDNY ( Internal ) and I have never been in a meeting where Volunteer firedepartments were thought of. Even during 9/11 ( may all responders rest in peace, and protect their families ) Department from other states came that were paid/ union depts

a) FDNY radios and the new 911 system suck. Never mind other depts coming to the city. I been to 911 dispatcher cener you need a bottle of advil and a hammer to stop the headaches you'll get with all the confusion and radio static over the air

Nassau County conducts "mobilization" drills on a regular basis with FDNY, about 2 a year. Next one is scheduled for Sept. Nassau sends units (Engines and Ladders) into Queens and Brooklyn. They go to pre planned assigned firehouses according to the mutual aid plan, drill have lunch and come back to county. This includes the fire marshals haz mat units and fire communications fieldcom unit on certain details.

[Bnechis 3,961]

c) FDNY will never train or call vcolunteers. That's a fact and you know it.

And to say most depts in westchester did not meet standards, I want to see what departments. I have worked with FDNY ( Internal ) and I have never been in a meeting where Volunteer firedepartments were thought of. Even during 9/11 ( may all responders rest in peace, and protect their families ) Department from other states came that were paid/ union depts

a) FDNY radios and the new 911 system suck. Never mind other depts coming to the city. I been to 911 dispatcher cener you need a bottle of advil and a hammer to stop the headaches you'll get with all the confusion and radio static over the air

C) As Spin the Wheel noted: Nassau VOLUNTEER FD's are part of the plan. Thats a fact and you are correct, I knew it.

When the plans were being developed, OFPC pulled up the training records for about 25 Southern Westchester Depts and determined that the overall training levels were so bad that FDNY did not want any depts from Westchester except career, because they could provide the training records. Sorry you did not get invited, maybe if there was a single training standard you would have.

A) Not using FDNY radio's. And yes the new 911 system sucks, what does that have anything to do with it?

[wraftery 1,275]

One more fact: Many Long Island FD's have large percentages of FDNY members. Thus, a higher standard of firefighter is responding on the NYC aid request.

[spin_the_wheel 460]

One more fact: Many Long Island FD's have large percentages of FDNY members. Thus, a higher standard of firefighter is responding on the NYC aid request.

FDNY members are not allowed...or I should say are discouraged from taking part in these relocation drills. No FDNY F/F's go, nor EMT's, Alarm dispatchers or other employed persons of FDNY that may have to be activated into duty should something happen. Retired are ok. If this was the real thing they would be going to their FDNY companies and not responding in with their volunteer companies.

I know this happened on 9-11, volunteer companies with FDNY guys took the volunteer rig in to Manhattan, but this plan should, or it is hoped that the plan will eliminate a freelance response. I hope we never get to find out.

[Westchester 49]

C) As Spin the Wheel noted: Nassau VOLUNTEER FD's are part of the plan. Thats a fact and you are correct, I knew it.

When the plans were being developed, OFPC pulled up the training records for about 25 Southern Westchester Depts and determined that the overall training levels were so bad that FDNY did not want any depts from Westchester except career, because they could provide the training records. Sorry you did not get invited, maybe if there was a single training standard you would have.

A) Not using FDNY radio's. And yes the new 911 system sucks, what does that have anything to do with it?

Do you know the sad thing is I was one that helped create some of training standards. I know now most likely some of my ex-coworkers might now know who I am. Yonkers trains in Valhalla, they will never train with Hastings(there next door Village )Most volunteer agencies keep records and Depart of Emergency Servicce in Valhalla keeps records of Firedepartments and names of whos training.I have trained some FDNY probies and some recert training. Believe some vollys are better then Paid.

[JM15 386]

So currently State Certified Fire Instructors can't run Firefighter I programs in their own departments???

Correct... It makes no sense to me

[JM15 386]

I have been reading the responses here am glad to see the feedback on this important issue. I for one would like to see volunteer departments have the ability to appoint municipal training officers providing they have met the criteria under section 426. I think that this would help some departments with training as well as maintain some level of competency. I have written to FASNY in the past for their input and also their support but it fell on deaf ears with the past leadership. Would like to see some thoughts here from all of you on this idea....thanks.

I agree this is the biggest issue. For example I went to Montour Falls and took Fire Instructor 1. In order to teach OFPC classes you need to take the Instructors series for each class. Kind of like a train the trainer type of thing. In order to take these classes you need to be an MTO or a state instructor who works for OFPC. So for those departments who have guys who have taken Fire Instructor classes the only way for them to actually be able to use those skills is get a job with OFPC.

[SageVigiles 1,194]

Correct... It makes no sense to me

I guess it makes sense given that an objective third party isn't coming in to do standardized testing to a specific standard, but there's no reason that couldn't be set up.

Edited July 22, 2013 by SageVigiles

[Bnechis 3,961]

Believe some vollys are better then Paid.

Never said they were not. But when you look at the state training records for each dept. and average them over the size of the dept. the numbers suck. And since you can not figure which members are active or will respond you are left with averages that are very very low.

As this thread is about 1 standard. When you look at the career depts, the averages are similar accross the board.

[wraftery 1,275]

FDNY members are not allowed...or I should say are discouraged from taking part in these relocation drills. No FDNY F/F's go, nor EMT's, Alarm dispatchers or other employed persons of FDNY that may have to be activated into duty should something happen. Retired are ok. If this was the real thing they would be going to their FDNY companies and not responding in with their volunteer companies.

I know this happened on 9-11, volunteer companies with FDNY guys took the volunteer rig in to Manhattan, but this plan should, or it is hoped that the plan will eliminate a freelance response. I hope we never get to find out.

I stand corrected. Apologies to Long Island. As for 9/11, we weren't ready. We should have been but we weren't. Are we ready now or has our height if readiness dwindled some?

The public and the politicians are completely clueless. Look at the Boston Marathon. The Russian Police told us to watch those two guys. We all know how that went.

And Westchester, don't worry about people knowing who you are. I'm sure your opinions are heard across the kitchen table too.

[Westchester 49]

Never said they were not. But when you look at the state training records for each dept. and average them over the size of the dept. the numbers suck. And since you can not figure which members are active or will respond you are left with averages that are very very low.

As this thread is about 1 standard. When you look at the career depts, the averages are similar accross the board.

How true you are.

[Bnechis 3,961]

I hit my number (2306) I should play that number today

[firemoose827 324]

Nothing is wrong with the response. But should it have required 3 departments? or should each department be able to handle at least an initial attack self-sufficently?

I dont know this area well enough, but from what I read they called for one department for their aerial ladder correct? There are sometimes situations where an extensive mutual aid contract needs to be in place to get the equipment and manpower you need to effectively provide the service the people deserve. They may have called for the third department just for manpower if needed because they knew everyone is hurting during the daytime for manpower? These are all questions that us "back seat drivers" cant answer unless we are members of this department and know first hand. I am just slightly disgusted at all the negative criticism given a department that in my eyes, are being professional enough to know what they can and can't provide in a situation and are smart and professional enough to address those needs ahead of time through an AMA agreement. If it takes 3 departments to do that, so be it, as long as the services are being provided.

Like Bnechis said though this shouldnt be a long term solution but in some cases what can be done to correct a manpower issue? Combining the departments will just take 2 short staffed departments and make it one larger yet still short staffed department. Lets face it, not everyone is pro-consolidation, and if you were to get it approved there would be the certain percentage of members from both departments that would quit as a result of the merger. It may take a few years to build that membership up to a decent level again. So, although a long term solution it may not be, its still a decent, professional solution to provide immediate coverage when needed the most.

Two ways to look at it:

1) A FIRE dept should be able handle a "simple" working fire.

2) the above being said, I give a lot of credit to any dept. that acknowledges (to itself) that it needs help and if this is what it takes, then at least they are making sure that the public and responders have enough responders.

Long term, if this is the way they need to operate, then they should become 1 department. Mutual aid like this is not a long term solution.

Agreed, but not likely from 3 different departments

A perfect example would be to have you google up my county and see what resources we have in the 17 departments we have here. In those 17 departments we have 2 trucks; both 95' rear mount tower ladders located centrally in the county. Not all 17 have actual rescue trucks with hydraulic rescue tools and rescue equipment, I would probably say 10 do (guessing, a lot of them are getting new equipment and moving stuff around lately and I dont have accurate info yet).

For us, we depend on AMA agreements, and we update them annually as needs change. The first year in this department we had 6 interiors, by the end of that year we had 7 more join, and now we are down to 8 currently (2 years later). Manpower fluctuates drastically around here. One year we could more than handle the initial attack on our own until MA arrives, others we desperately need AMA to arrive with us in order to get the initial attack line in operation, and have done so a few times. As officer I have seen a mixed attack team more than once (one of ours and two from AMA department). But this has been normal for years, since long before I moved up here from Long Island. I came from a department who very rarely EVER called for MA to a department that relies on it for a majority of the calls we respond too. Do I agree that its OK to do it that way? No. But in order to get help there fast, what else can we do without years of political BS, arguing over district lines and station locations (for mergers), and what equipment is kept where and who is in charge........Id rather just keep bringing these AMA agreements to the county chiefs meeting every year and review them with our AMA chiefs and sign them over a coffee and a hand shake. Then we can focus our attentions on recruitment and retention efforts, which is also done with other departments in a joint effort.

[ex-commish 490]

I agree this is the biggest issue. For example I went to Montour Falls and took Fire Instructor 1. In order to teach OFPC classes you need to take the Instructors series for each class. Kind of like a train the trainer type of thing. In order to take these classes you need to be an MTO or a state instructor who works for OFPC. So for those departments who have guys who have taken Fire Instructor classes the only way for them to actually be able to use those skills is get a job with OFPC.

I have been out of the loop with training for a while but here goes....your department or AHD can adopt training standards for it's members providing it meets all applicable laws and standards. For example you can run a FF1 class that could meet the expectations of NFPA 1001 yet you could not issue a state certificate from OFPC for FF1 because it is not sponsored by OFPC but your AHD can issue a certificate. I would suggest that the person(s) who conducts the training be a certified instructor as it would hold up better if something was to happen. Please correct me if I am wrong.

[JM15 386]

I have been out of the loop with training for a while but here goes....your department or AHD can adopt training standards for it's members providing it meets all applicable laws and standards. For example you can run a FF1 class that could meet the expectations of NFPA 1001 yet you could not issue a state certificate from OFPC for FF1 because it is not sponsored by OFPC but your AHD can issue a certificate. I would suggest that the person(s) who conducts the training be a certified instructor as it would hold up better if something was to happen. Please correct me if I am wrong.

In theory you could do that. You would want to show that the instructor(s) were competent and followed curriculum that met the standards. The easiest way would be to follow the OFPC curriculum. The member could be issued an in-house FF1 certificate but that carries no weight outside of that district. You will run into problems if your taking county or state classes due to the pre-requisites or even going mutual aide. It really is just not an efficient way to do it.

[38ff 250]

That is the exact problem in a nutshell that we are running into, JM15....

Edited July 22, 2013 by 38ff

[ex-commish 490]

In theory you could do that. You would want to show that the instructor(s) were competent and followed curriculum that met the standards. The easiest way would be to follow the OFPC curriculum. The member could be issued an in-house FF1 certificate but that carries no weight outside of that district. You will run into problems if your taking county or state classes due to the pre-requisites or even going mutual aide. It really is just not an efficient way to do it.

Why wouldn't it carry any weight outside the district if the training was documented that it followed the proper curriculum?

[firemoose827 324]

Why wouldn't it carry any weight outside the district if the training was documented that it followed the proper curriculum?

Because it was not given by a certified state fire instructor. Anyone can run around saying that their FF's receive the proper curriculum in training drills in station, but how can you prove it? No file with the state through the instructors credentials, so it doesnt exist.

I accidentally hit the "like" button while trying to reply, sorry!

[38ff 250]

I'd be happy if I could pay a state certified instructor to teach a OFPC class to the standard and then get a state certificiate for it. I"d write the check in a heartbeat.

[firemoose827 324]

I'd be happy if I could pay a state certified instructor to teach a OFPC class to the standard and then get a state certificiate for it. I"d write the check in a heartbeat.

??? ???

Its NYS Training, everyone gets it either at the academy or through outreach programs in your county scheduled by your fire coordinator, dont you ever have any courses in your county? I dont understand your comment (for real, no jab or insult intended). If its a joke I apologize.

I dont think the outreach classes cost anything other than a registration fee to cover the cost of the instructors salary through OFPC. Correct me if I am wrong.

Thanks.

[Bnechis 3,961]

Why wouldn't it carry any weight outside the district if the training was documented that it followed the proper curriculum?

Because OFPC has to protect their own.

I use to teach a 16 hours hazmat ops course for a local dept. (I have been cert by OFPC to teach it as a cfi or mpo). The dept wanted to send some members to OFPC Hazmat tech. OFPC said send the teching material. We did, they reviewed it and determined that even though it was an hour loger than the state course and actually meet the legal requirements for the AHJ (OFPC's class does not) it was 5 minutes short in one area and 3 minutes in another so their members could not take OFPC's Hazmat Tech, unless they retook Hazmat Ops 1st.

[Bnechis 3,961]

I'd be happy if I could pay a state certified instructor to teach a OFPC class to the standard and then get a state certificiate for it. I"d write the check in a heartbeat.

??? ???

Its NYS Training, everyone gets it either at the academy or through outreach programs in your county scheduled by your fire coordinator, dont you ever have any courses in your county? I dont understand your comment (for real, no jab or insult intended). If its a joke I apologize.

I dont think the outreach classes cost anything other than a registration fee to cover the cost of the instructors salary through OFPC. Correct me if I am wrong.

Thanks.

There are never enough courses given in any of the outreach programs to meet the demand. And if you are a career dept. you have to pay for the acadamy.

38ff's point was he would be willing to pick up the cost of extra classes to get his guys trained

[38ff 250]

Firemoose,

No, is not a joke. Our county says they have very limited hours/money for training. Yes, we have the outreach programs, but there is not nearly enought of them to keep up with the demand (bodies needing training) in the county. This has been brought up in countywide fire district meetings, Battalion meetings, ect. Same story no matter where you go on whatever level.

I have gotten in 12 new members in the past few months in my district due to a great recruting program done both inhouse and by FASNY that want to be/physically can be "interior SCBA wearing, hose weilding, a** kicking FF's" ... I am able to send 2 of them to FFI class due to county rules, which is 2 members per dept per "high demand" class. The other 10 get told, "well, you just have to wait for the next class" That could be several months off, and even then, it may not be non where near local (within a 45 drive one way). So they start to loose interest (and I dont blame them), .. They say to themselves, "You wanted me here, but you cant officially(read as having state certification saying I know what Im doing) train me, so whats the point".. I'd probably walk away also......

Ok, fine. As a district, I will pay (out of my budget for something that the state/county does provide, but its not nearly enough as the demand is for for free) for a state instructor, have them teach the OFPC class to the OFPC standards/doctrine, and would ASSUME that you'd get a state certificate. However, this is not the case. You dont get a state certificiate, you get a "in house" one, which is meaningless outside the confines of the district. If I have my inhouse cert, and I want to take a OFPC taught FF2 class, since I dont have a state issued cert, I cant take FF2.

So as a district, do I pay good money for good training that is meaningless as the state is concerned? What happens when someone gets hurt/killed that had a "inhouse cert" but not a state one? Im sure the lawyers would love that one. It could be a LONG time before I can get my other 10 people thru an outreach class.

Bottom line as a district, I'd pay for the training but the state makes it so I can not do so AND get a state certificate for the training....... So whats a guy to

Edited July 23, 2013 by 38ff

[JM15 386]

Because it was not given by a certified state fire instructor. Anyone can run around saying that their FF's receive the proper curriculum in training drills in station, but how can you prove it? No file with the state through the instructors credentials, so it doesnt exist.

I accidentally hit the "like" button while trying to reply, sorry!

While for the most part true. The fire district has the ultimate power to train its employees not OFPC.

OSHA 1910.156©(3) States:

The quality of the training and education program for fire brigade members shall be similar to those conducted by such fire training schools as the Maryland Fire and Rescue Institute; Iowa Fire Service Extension; West Virginia Fire Service Extension; Georgia Fire Academy, New York State Department, Fire Prevention and Control; Louisiana State University Firemen Training Program, or Washington State's Fire Service Training Commission for Vocational Education. (For example, for the oil refinery industry, with its unique hazards, the training and education program for those fire brigade members shall be similar to those conducted by Texas A & M University, Lamar University, Reno Fire School, or the Delaware State Fire School.)

Notabally in that standard it states that curriculum similar to OFPC curriculum is recognized as being sufficient to meet OSHA standards. Therefore as far as PESH/OSHA is concerned if you do an "in-house" FF1 class and it follows OFPC curriculum and is conducted by a competent instructor and you have the paperwork to prove it then it meets that requirement. But then all of the issues that were previously discussed come into play.

[firecapt32 282]

1- NYS Fire Instructors cannot teach any courses any where with out approval of OFPC. So the problem isn't with the Instructors its with OFPC.

2- NYC along with OFPC set the standard for Departments coming into the City.

3-Westchester has been assigned the Bronx--this is from FDNY and OFPC.

4-Each responding member is entered into the computer system to check credentials. Westchester meets at the Yonkers raceway to check in then gets a assignment. No one goes into the city with out being checked in first -or they will be subject to arrest by NYPD.

5-Limited apparatus allowed into the City---5 man eng--5 man trucks as per FDNY and OFPC.

6-LI covers Queens and Brooklyn same deal as Westchester and I believe NJ covers Staten Island if needed same as everyone else.

As for who trains with who -- why cant the Departments request departments with similar training... Example if your department is at a "job" and is tied up for a while and you need coverage---and you do EMS runs. You need a department with fire and EMTS and a EMS system to cover you. Why should you bring in any department that isn't up to your standards. If you have high rise buildings why bring in a department that has a 4 story height limit in their town or has never trained on high rise fires. Thers a lot to consider here.

[firecapt32 282]

1- NYS Fire Instructors cannot teach any courses any where with out approval of OFPC. So the problem isn't with the Instructors its with OFPC.

2- NYC along with OFPC set the standard for Departments coming into the City.

3-Westchester has been assigned the Bronx--this is from FDNY and OFPC.

4-Each responding member is entered into the computer system to check credentials. Westchester meets at the Yonkers raceway to check in then gets a assignment. No one goes into the city with out being checked in first -or they will be subject to arrest by NYPD.

5-Limited apparatus allowed into the City---5 man eng--5 man trucks as per FDNY and OFPC.

6-LI covers Queens and Brooklyn same deal as Westchester and I believe NJ covers Staten Island if needed same as everyone else.

As for who trains with who -- why cant the Departments request departments with similar training... Example if your department is at a "job" and is tied up for a while and you need coverage---and you do EMS runs. You need a department with fire and EMTS and a EMS system to cover you. Why should you bring in any department that isn't up to your standards. If you have high rise buildings why bring in a department that has a 4 story height limit in their town or has never trained on high rise fires. Thers a lot to consider here.

[ex-commish 490]

Because it was not given by a certified state fire instructor. Anyone can run around saying that their FF's receive the proper curriculum in training drills in station, but how can you prove it? No file with the state through the instructors credentials, so it doesnt exist.

I accidentally hit the "like" button while trying to replyev, sorry! ;)r

The same argument could be used for in-service training...couldn't it?

[helicopper 1,050]

This is a fascinating thread and it is great to see such a discussion returning to EMTBravo.

One thing that piqued my interest is the issue of training availability and provision by local entities and/or fire districts. This link will take you to the OFPC report on training: http://www.dhses.ny.gov/ofpc/training/documents/2012-legislative-report.pdf

Of particular interest was (page 3):

IV - Supplemental Training

Twenty-five counties have opted to supplement the number of training courses conducted by OFPC using

local and county resources. These courses are conducted primarily for volunteer fire departments by

county fire instructors designated by the county fire coordinator. County fire instructors are authorized by

OFPC to deliver state fire training courses but are not state employees. Each county or fire department is

responsible for the costs associated with conducting these courses. Courses are scheduled in the same

manner as outreach training courses. OFPC anticipates that all supplemental training course requests for

2013 will be fulfilled.

It would appear that agencies can work with their county to provide additional training at the county's expense. If the county is unable or unwilling to provide funding for that training, the district could probably arrange with the county to provide officially sanctioned supplemental training that would meet everyone's needs.

[firemoose827 324]

Firemoose,

No, is not a joke. Our county says they have very limited hours/money for training. Yes, we have the outreach programs, but there is not nearly enought of them to keep up with the demand (bodies needing training) in the county. This has been brought up in countywide fire district meetings, Battalion meetings, ect. Same story no matter where you go on whatever level.

I have gotten in 12 new members in the past few months in my district due to a great recruting program done both inhouse and by FASNY that want to be/physically can be "interior SCBA wearing, hose weilding, a** kicking FF's" ... I am able to send 2 of them to FFI class due to county rules, which is 2 members per dept per "high demand" class. The other 10 get told, "well, you just have to wait for the next class" That could be several months off, and even then, it may not be non where near local (within a 45 drive one way). So they start to loose interest (and I dont blame them), .. They say to themselves, "You wanted me here, but you cant officially(read as having state certification saying I know what Im doing) train me, so whats the point".. I'd probably walk away also......

Ok, fine. As a district, I will pay (out of my budget for something that the state/county does provide, but its not nearly enough as the demand is for for free) for a state instructor, have them teach the OFPC class to the OFPC standards/doctrine, and would ASSUME that you'd get a state certificate. However, this is not the case. You dont get a state certificiate, you get a "in house" one, which is meaningless outside the confines of the district. If I have my inhouse cert, and I want to take a OFPC taught FF2 class, since I dont have a state issued cert, I cant take FF2.

So as a district, do I pay good money for good training that is meaningless as the state is concerned? What happens when someone gets hurt/killed that had a "inhouse cert" but not a state one? Im sure the lawyers would love that one. It could be a LONG time before I can get my other 10 people thru an outreach class.

Bottom line as a district, I'd pay for the training but the state makes it so I can not do so AND get a state certificate for the training....... So whats a guy to

Thank you for the clarification, and I applaud you on your efforts to bring quality training to your department. You dont see that too often and I respect the hell out of you. I hope you are able to continue the training standards for your department without too much hassle. I wish my department would have the same enthusiasm but it just isnt there, and I thought the new training center would change that but it, just like any new idea was just a quick spark of interest then right back to our old habbits again...

Best of luck with your training brother.

The same argument could be used for in-service training...couldn't it?

In service training is used to supplement whatever certified training you receive and can be tracked using department training sign-in sheets. If you dont have the sign-in sheet with the subject covered in the drill, equipment used and member signatures with an officer in charge, it didnt happen. I know these are easily pencil-whipped, but its about honor and pride, you want to provide a service to the community you need to be responsible enough to train the right way and keep appropriate records. And as always, if I am wrong in this please correct me!

[helicopper 1,050]

Some interesting points from the report:

NYS has 1830 fire departments? That's crazy. Per capita, that's one fire department for every 9,500 people in the state (approximately).

But wait, NYC, has only one FD and the majority of the population. So backing that out it is really an entire fire department for every 5,200 people in the state (approximately). If each department has a budget of $100K, which is not a lot and probably captures a reasonable average between larger downstate departments and smaller, underfunded departments, the total cost of fire service in NYS is 183 MILLION dollars. And we still can't get a full response on every initial call. Wow!

Firefighter training and education is conducted for both career and volunteer fire departments throughout the state, serving approximately

100,000 firefighters in 1830 fire departments. This training is essential for safe and effective emergency response aimed at protecting the people,

property and environment in the State of New York.

Back to the original point of this thread.

Career firefighters must meet minimum basic and annual in-service training standards, pursuant to section

58-a of the Civil Service Law, section 209-w of the General Municipal Law and state firefighter training

standards contained in 19 NYCRR Parts 426 and 427.

If this sentence started without career, it would be a great line. Career FF have statutory minimum training despite all the AHJ and home rule comments made previously. It is definitely a double standard and should be fixed.