Single Training Standard for Firefighter in NYS

[Bnechis 3,961]

I have to agree with v85 here. The general public is not going to care (or in some cases doesn't have a say) and as long as nobody gets hurt neither will OSHA or the courts. So most departments think they can get away with whatever they want because they're the Fire Department, and nobody tells them what to do.

As with everything else in the fire service, nothing will change until somebody dies.

I agree, but its because 1) they assume everyone is trained, 2) they have been told we have 100's of trained firefighters and/or 3) I'm never going to call the FD so it does not matter.

And the public generally does not care if a FF gets hurt (unless they know the ff) as long as it does not cost them more $$$

OSHA is another issue, they have been showing up in a number of depts in Westchester and issuing fines for failing to meet standards. They can show up because of an incident, because of a complaint (and how many depts have 1 ormore unhappy members/exmembers?) or a random inspection.

Yes you are correct, most depts act that way. And you are right about someone having to die, but it has to bein that dept. because many firefighters have died over the years and depts have not learned from the extensive reports on these LODDs.

[SRS131EMTFF 471]

Thats not what OFPC's 2013 Training Catalog lists. It only had Firefighter I

Even EMTs can take AVET according to the state.

Downloaded from http://www.dhses.ny.gov/ofpc/training/documents/trainingcatalog.pdf

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Edited July 16, 2013 by SRS131EMTFF

[Bnechis 3,961]

Even EMTs can take AVET according to the state.

Downloaded from http://www.dhses.ny.gov/ofpc/training/documents/trainingcatalog.pdf

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I went back and relooked up he link I had originally used and you are correct. I cut/pasted it to my original post and must have only caught part of it.

[SRS131EMTFF 471]

I went back and relooked up he link I had originally used and you are correct. I cut/pasted it to my original post and must have only caught part of it.

Yep, sorry for the frequent edits and poor phrasing, that should be fixed now.

[JoeyMirra1021 4]

There should be a set standard, at least in theory. But the real question is "can it be implemented?"

[firemoose827 324]

There was an automatic alarm in Orange County today.

Responding were 3 different fire departments

The district the call was in; an automatic mutual aid district; another district with their ladder standing by in quarters; and a county coordinator. For a residential alarm.

You don't have the manpower to handle an AFA, without excessive mutual aid?

This is kind of a lousy way to look at this response. It may just be my experience in the fire service, but too many of us look at automatic fire alarms as bogus runs, or nothing to worry about. This department may not have enough manpower to handle structure fires and as a result they make sure they have it for fire alarms, because, why would a fire alarm activate usually?? Because of smoke or fire right? Its not always going to be a false alarm. This department would rather be prepared in case it is a fire. Whats wrong with that?

I have to agree with v85 here. The general public is not going to care (or in some cases doesn't have a say) and as long as nobody gets hurt neither will OSHA or the courts. So most departments think they can get away with whatever they want because they're the Fire Department, and nobody tells them what to do.

As with everything else in the fire service, nothing will change until somebody dies.

I used to agree with this but it doesnt teach people anything lasting. Look at 9/11 and the outpooring of support firefighters received for months after it, because of the major loss of life. What about now? Years later? Everyone forgets over time.

And lets look at how many firefighters die because of cancer, yet we still refuse to wear our air masks for every fire, including car fires and overhaul at structure fires? Loosing firefighters doesnt send any message other then grief.

[SageVigiles 1,194]

I used to agree with this but it doesnt teach people anything lasting. Look at 9/11 and the outpooring of support firefighters received for months after it, because of the major loss of life. What about now? Years later? Everyone forgets over time.

And lets look at how many firefighters die because of cancer, yet we still refuse to wear our air masks for every fire, including car fires and overhaul at structure fires? Loosing firefighters doesnt send any message other then grief.

Unfortunately you may be on to something Chief. Unless somebody dies in your department (I mean that generally, not talking about you specifically Moose,) nothing will change, because those in leadership positions will continue to justify their inaction by saying "this couldn't happen to us, we're too (insert random BS descriptor here)"

Alternatively, my generation could start demand more, I think the rising popularity of the "Combat Ready" style of firefighting among my peers, things MAY start to move in the right direction. I really like the energy and dedication that concept is bringing to the fire service, focusing on being proficient in the basics and motivating members to become lifelong students of the fire service instead of getting complacent when we think we've trained enough or taken enough classes (nothing kills my trust in a member or officer quite like those statements.) Maybe if those of us riding the back seats and the younger officers start raising the bar in terms of expectations and standards, we can drag rest of the service with us. But maybe I'm just feeling optimistic since I had my coffee an hour earlier this morning...

Edited July 19, 2013 by SageVigiles

[v85 212]

This is kind of a lousy way to look at this response. It may just be my experience in the fire service, but too many of us look at automatic fire alarms as bogus runs, or nothing to worry about. This department may not have enough manpower to handle structure fires and as a result they make sure they have it for fire alarms, because, why would a fire alarm activate usually?? Because of smoke or fire right? Its not always going to be a false alarm. This department would rather be prepared in case it is a fire. Whats wrong with that?

I used to agree with this but it doesnt teach people anything lasting. Look at 9/11 and the outpooring of support firefighters received for months after it, because of the major loss of life. What about now? Years later? Everyone forgets over time.

And lets look at how many firefighters die because of cancer, yet we still refuse to wear our air masks for every fire, including car fires and overhaul at structure fires? Loosing firefighters doesnt send any message other then grief.

Nothing is wrong with the response. But should it have required 3 departments? or should each department be able to handle at least an initial attack self-sufficently?

[Bnechis 3,961]

Nothing is wrong with the response. But should it have required 3 departments? or should each department be able to handle at least an initial attack self-sufficently?

Two ways to look at it:

1) A FIRE dept should be able handle a "simple" working fire.

2) the above being said, I give a lot of credit to any dept. that acknowledges (to itself) that it needs help and if this is what it takes, then at least they are making sure that the public and responders have enough responders.

Long term, if this is the way they need to operate, then they should become 1 department. Mutual aid like this is not a long term solution.

[wraftery 1,275]

Two ways to look at it:

1) A FIRE dept should be able handle a "simple" working fire.

2) the above being said, I give a lot of credit to any dept. that acknowledges (to itself) that it needs help and if this is what it takes, then at least they are making sure that the public and responders have enough responders.

Long term, if this is the way they need to operate, then they should become 1 department. Mutual aid like this is not a long term solution.

There could be another reason for that response Automatic mutual aid where the incident is receiving its response from the closest stations. That would make sense.

[Bnechis 3,961]

There could be another reason for that response Automatic mutual aid where the incident is receiving its response from the closest stations. That would make sense.

Agreed, but not likely from 3 different departments

[38ff 250]

Im totally for one standard, but the implementation will be the hard part. My county's OEM is already complaining how they don't have enough training hours/dollars to run FF1 classes. While FASNY's "The Fire In You" recruitment program has been a success, the state has not pumped more dollars into training to support the new recruits, so there are a bunch of new members who must wait for classes to open up, and that could be a long time. In my county, we can only send 2 people to each class per dept. That's not even getting into how close the classes are to the dept distance wise, as some classes are over 1+ hour drive away.

If a District says "we will go hire our own state/county instructors and run our own class", the county gets upset and since it isn't a county/state authorized class, you don't get official credit. So while you get the training to the same standard with certified instructors using the OFPC lesson plans, you don't get the certificate saying your trained.. So if later on you want to take a state FF2 class, you don't have a FF1 certificate because you didn't take an county/state authorized FF1 class.... This scenario plays out for any OPFC class. not just FF1.


Until more dollars above the district level are pumped in to training, I don't see how it can be implemented, no matter how good an idea it is and needs to happen.

Edited July 20, 2013 by 38ff

[everybodygoes 331]

We are slowly heading towards no FD service. Unless you get kids in high school to start training we will soon enough not be able to find someone with the time to attend 140 hours of training just to get on the backstep, and they still won't know a thing! In my experience most if not every new member has been extremely hungry and willing to train their hearts out. I don't see what has changed since 1994 when I took essentials. If anything now we are better off and not because of training but because all of the advances in protective equipment and concentration on mask design and so forth has allowed us much better protection.

[Bnechis 3,961]

My county's OEM is already complaining how they don't have enough training hours/dollars to run FF1 classes. While FASNY's "The Fire In You" recruitment program has been a success, the state has not pumped more dollars into training to support the new recruits, so there are a bunch of new members who must wait for classes to open up, and that could be a long time.

If a District says "we will go hire our own state/county instructors and run our own class", the county gets upset and since it isn't a county/state authorized class, you don't get official credit. So while you get the training to the same standard with certified instructors using the OFPC lesson plans, you don't get the certificate saying your trained.. So if later on you want to take a state FF2 class, you don't have a FF1 certificate because you didn't take an county/state authorized FF1 class.... This scenario plays out for any OPFC class. not just FF1.

Until more dollars above the district level are pumped in to training, I don't see how it can be implemented, no matter how good an idea it is and needs to happen.

All reasonable complaints and it shows how screwwed up NYS is.

State and federal law require the "employeer" to provide the training. NYS DOL & the courts have long ruled that VFD's are employeers and volunteers are employees.

If we hire a new firefighter my city has to pay for his training.

If you recruit a new firefighter we also have to pay for his training

If the state/county can not provide enough classes, then the local dept should be allowed to do it or allowed to fund it.

[38ff 250]

Being screwed up is one thing NYS doesn't need training in, and can teach at the Federal level, as they are experts....

[wraftery 1,275]

Being screwed up is one thing NYS doesn't need training in, and can teach at the Federal level, as they are experts....

You must have been to NYS instructor conferences. That's where they find a course that they consider "brand new." Then they take a OFPC Instructor who they hired right out of college with virtually no experience, and tell him to certify people to teach this course . They can do a certification for a 16- hour course in 2hrs.

[Westchester 49]

I agree with a national standard but like anything else there are so many problems with NYS and requirements. As far as the bail system that is now in place, the powers at be are looking into severe back injuries due to this harness. A new design is being created as we type, and a new class and video we ( Interior ) have to take. The olny problem I see is departments that see no calls. All the training in the world and all exams passed are great, but when it's go time now what. NYS changed EMT requirememts to become Nationized, I can't remember if I ever resucued someone of a cliff in the mountains using a basket and tri-pod set. Due to NYS Nationalizing the EMT course amd CME course there has been a 20% decline in orginal EMTs recertified.The other problem is that there are not enough instructors at the DES in Valhalla, not enough courses offered even at Camp Smith. I have a Member that wants to take EVOC 1 and the course isn't being offered and nobody knows when it will be offered. So before we burn or computers up with typing comments lets first get the courses and the instructors then the students will show. They may never use all the training but a least they have it. I know some villages that train more bread and butter ops than paid city companies

[38ff 250]

When was the last fire class taught at Camp Smith? I'll bet it was over 6 years ago..

[Bnechis 3,961]

1) As far as the bail system that is now in place, the powers at be are looking into severe back injuries due to this harness. A new design is being created as we type, and a new class and video we ( Interior ) have to take.

2) NYS changed EMT requirememts to become Nationized, I can't remember if I ever resucued someone of a cliff in the mountains using a basket and tri-pod set.

3) Due to NYS Nationalizing the EMT course amd CME course there has been a 20% decline in orginal EMTs recertified.

4) The other problem is that there are not enough instructors at the DES in Valhalla, not enough courses offered even at Camp Smith.

1) Due to what harness? their are 100's of harness designs on the market, In the NY metro region the most popular is the gemtor and the main reason is because "we want what FDNY has".

2) Can you tell me where in the new ciriculum cliff rescue is? I cant find it anywhere

3) This matches the decline in volunteers nationally in both Fire & EMS. There are many reasons for the decline, but if adding a total of 13 hours of training over a 2 years time then we have even bigger problems. What does the alternative (optional) CME program have to do with the decline?

4) Maybe the problem is not too few instructors, but too many students who are not prepared to take classes (i.e. no fit test, no medicals, old gear, etc.) thus filling up classes and tieing up instructors

[38ff 250]

I'd rather chance a back problem using a harness to bail out with than just using gravity..

[spin_the_wheel 460]

We are slowly heading towards no FD service. Unless you get kids in high school to start training we will soon enough not be able to find someone with the time to attend 140 hours of training just to get on the backstep, and they still won't know a thing! In my experience most if not every new member has been extremely hungry and willing to train their hearts out. I don't see what has changed since 1994 when I took essentials. If anything now we are better off and not because of training but because all of the advances in protective equipment and concentration on mask design and so forth has allowed us much better protection.

Interesting. I have thought about this myself. Having a 17 year old senior who has aspirations of joining the local volunteer Fire Dept when they turn 18 be allowed to take a FF 1 course their senior year. Most seniors have half days as it is with their schedules I'm sure something like this could be worked out. Interesting concept.

[v85 212]

Orange County BOCES offers this program:

www.ouboces.org/CTE/CareerAcademies/firescience.cfm

Upon successful completion of the program, students are eligible to sit for the New York State Firefighter 1 Certification Exam. Program follows the New York State Office of Fire Prevention and Control Curriculum:
• Firefighter I
• Scene Support Operations
• Hazardous Materials Operations
• Confined Space Safety
• Defense Against Weapons of Mass Destruction Awareness

Certification Opportunities:

• Firefighter I
• American Heart Association CPR, First Aid and AED
• New York State Emergency Management Office Certification: Incident Command System (ICS-100)

[Westchester 49]

We can go back and forth all day about this. Single Training Standard, Fire Fighting training or SOPs is excellent, but like anything it comes down to training. Tell me how many departments have monthly training where the only thing they think about is how long is the training? Or whats for dinner after? If the department can't get all members to train a practice together we can talk about this till were blue in the face. Or the best is when members come to training late or stay behind in the firehouse and still get credit for training. How many of you out there sometime see members sitting in the car waiting for the first rig to come back from a call and they sign in for service award points. I'm sorry but there are some volunteer firefighters that are not willing to train or have a excuse not to.There are some villages that have multiple companies and don't train together. So what's the sense in writing all this if our own brothers/sisters won't take the proper courses to be Nationalized. I want the State to have single traning standards , but we still can't get radio frequencies if westchester has to go the manhattan. As firefighters we should be directing our efferts on bread and butter firefighting and communications. I know firefighters that have been in paid and voluntter and forgot had to hit a hydrant, or they chatter to much on the radio. Damn I've seen A paid department out side of NYS go to the wrong address and breach the homeowners door to find the fire was across town. If we can't get our own men/women to retrain on the basics, why continue to discuss this. I hope one day NYS implements these standards of training so we are all on the same page, but at the end it all comes down to unions and the mighty dollar

Edited July 21, 2013 by Westchester

[Bnechis 3,961]

 

but we still can't get radio frequencies if westchester has to go the manhattan.

 

a) FDNY, OFPC & WC have taken care of that, drilled on it and the frequencies work.

Most depts in Westchester did not meet the minimum stanards required by FDNY to respond into NYC and that is why they did not participate in any of the anuall drills.

c) FDNY has no intention of having Westchester units go to Manhattan. The have asked us to cover the Bronx

[wraftery 1,275]

Interesting. I have thought about this myself. Having a 17 year old senior who has aspirations of joining the local volunteer Fire Dept when they turn 18 be allowed to take a FF 1 course their senior year. Most seniors have half days as it is with their schedules I'm sure something like this could be worked out. Interesting concept.

Greenburgh has had that program for years. In fact a few that were in the WISE program are able to retire. They spent their last semester of high school as student firefighters and had to write a paper, keep a journal, etc. In fact, Barry, one of our successes went to Iona Prep and is now a Captain on the Stamford CT rescue

[ex-commish 490]

I have been reading the responses here am glad to see the feedback on this important issue. I for one would like to see volunteer departments have the ability to appoint municipal training officers providing they have met the criteria under section 426. I think that this would help some departments with training as well as maintain some level of competency. I have written to FASNY in the past for their input and also their support but it fell on deaf ears with the past leadership. Would like to see some thoughts here from all of you on this idea....thanks.

[38ff 250]

The biggest hurdle is lack of training dollars at the state/county level. Fix that, and lots of other problems will go away.

[SageVigiles 1,194]

I have been reading the responses here am glad to see the feedback on this important issue. I for one would like to see volunteer departments have the ability to appoint municipal training officers providing they have met the criteria under section 426. I think that this would help some departments with training as well as maintain some level of competency. I have written to FASNY in the past for their input and also their support but it fell on deaf ears with the past leadership. Would like to see some thoughts here from all of you on this idea....thanks.

So currently State Certified Fire Instructors can't run Firefighter I programs in their own departments???

[Westchester 49]

   

a) FDNY, OFPC & WC have taken care of that, drilled on it and the frequencies work.

Most depts in Westchester did not meet the minimum stanards required by FDNY to respond into NYC and that is why they did not participate in any of the anuall drills.

c) FDNY has no intention of having Westchester units go to Manhattan. The have asked us to cover the Bronx

c) FDNY will never train or call vcolunteers. That's a fact and you know it.

And to say most depts in westchester did not meet standards, I want to see what departments. I have worked with FDNY ( Internal ) and I have never been in a meeting where Volunteer firedepartments were thought of. Even during 9/11 ( may all responders rest in peace, and protect their families ) Department from other states came that were paid/ union depts

a) FDNY radios and the new 911 system suck. Never mind other depts coming to the city. I been to 911 dispatcher cener you need a bottle of advil and a hammer to stop the headaches you'll get with all the confusion and radio static over the air

[Westchester 49]

The biggest hurdle is lack of training dollars at the state/county level. Fix that, and lots of other problems will go away.

Even if the State or County receives money from grants or increase in tax dollars, you think local or state officials with give FD/EMS money for training. Were lucky or town can afford new turnout gear, the town continues to cut or budjet never mind closing firehouses. Were on our own